Holidays

[zeker33:9]

Well, my intentions are not to judge but to enlighten and to warn of possible danger to the believer.

The way I look at it for myself, I figure God won't care one way or another if I don't celebrate a worldly custom. But there is a chance, however small, that He may care and not like it. My eternal salvation is too precious for me to take that chance... I look at Sabbath the same way, although I do understand the significance of the sanctity of that day. If, however, you esteem any day to be worthy of worship, why not make it Sabbath. That way you have your bets covered, so to speak..

Two things came to mind as I read your post. The second is in the bold text.

1) If we impose our intentions on someone else, then we are no better than the pharisees. That is exactly what they did it was a matter of control. If God doesn't care one way or the other whether you celebrate Jesus' birth, then don't impose your understanding on others. Again, the pharisees.

2) If your salvation is a gamble, then you've already lost.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Two things came to mind as I read your post. The second is in the bold text.

1) If we impose our intentions on someone else, then we are no better than the pharisees. That is exactly what they did it was a matter of control. If God doesn't care one way or the other whether you celebrate Jesus' birth, then don't impose your understanding on others. Again, the pharisees.
How is sharing my beliefs and the evidense that i have found through my own study 'imposing my intentions' on you or any one else. Is this not what the disciples did in spreading the Gospel? Were they being Pharisitic? When you witness to an unbeliever, are you imposing you belief upon that person or just sharing what you beleive to be truth?

2) If your salvation is a gamble, then you've already lost.

Bad choice of words and I'm sorry you took it that way... how 'bout this...
'that way, you are covered'
Btw, I wasn't refering to my belief that the Sabbath is the correct day of worship, I do that because I believe without a shadow of a doubt this to be true. I was speaking to those that think any day is as good as another.

I was trying to break the issue down into something so simple that I thought it could not be misunderstood, although upon reading it again I realize it could look like I have a scatter gun faith approach, which, if you've been following my posts, you would know is not the case.

 

[zeker33:9]

How is sharing my beliefs and the evidense that i have found through my own study 'imposing my intentions' on you or any one else. Is this not what the disciples did in spreading the Gospel? Were they being Pharisitic? When you witness to an unbeliever, are you imposing you belief upon that person or just sharing what you beleive to be truth?

Your opening comments to the thread:

What is the opinion of the upcoming holiday season?

Holy or evil? Why?

Imposing your intentions on others is how you have set up the discussion. If one doesn't see it the way you do, then they are following the way of the world and are thus considered evil by your own standard you set in the OP. Despite what the Bible may say, you have set yourself up to be right. Even if you're wrong you're right. I've been in these kinds of discussions longer than you've been in the SDA church. How do I know this? By the second part of your OP.

I will reserve the results of my study on the subject till after some other ADVENTISTS weigh in.

Suffice it to say that this issue was one that caused me to stop attending our local SDA church.

Even another SDA that participates in this thread that doesn't see things the way you do is wrong based off of your OP. Btw, I'm not an SDA, I've never been one.

Bad choice of words and I'm sorry you took it that way... how 'bout this...

'that way, you are covered'
Btw, I wasn't refering to my belief that the Sabbath is the correct day of worship, I do that because I believe without a shadow of a doubt this to be true. I was speaking to those that think any day is as good as another.
I was trying to break the issue down into something so simple that I thought it could not be misunderstood, although upon reading it again I realize it could look like I have a scatter gun faith approach, which, if you've been following my posts, you would know is not the case.

Still a gamble. I'm covered by the blood of Jesus, you've chosen a day that if you don't keep it, then you could lose your salvation. See?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What do you feel is our part in this covenant? By it's very definition, it has to be a two way agreement. This was the case for the old covenant eg; the blessings and cursing in Lev 26. We now have God's Law written in our heart and are under the new contract but don't you think we need to uphold our part of that contract? Do you think you can be saved in sin? That no matter what you do in this life after conversion, you will be untouchable without the continuous need of repenting? How does that work in a Biblical context? I know that my Lord has asked me to keep His Commandments if I love Him...what if I don't?

This is how I see my salvation and I do not take it for granted... my opinions are my own and even though I premise a discussion on my belief, if I am shown Biblically that I am wrong, then I will pray the Spirit guide me into a new understanding.

 

[k4c]

Well, my intentions are not to judge but to enlighten and to warn of possible danger to the believer.

The way I look at it for myself, I figure God won't care one way or another if I don't celebrate a worldly custom. But there is a chance, however small, that He may care and not like it. My eternal salvation is too precious for me to take that chance... I look at Sabbath the same way, although I do understand the significance of the sanctity of that day. If, however, you esteem any day to be worthy of worship, why not make it Sabbath. That way you have your bets covered, so to speak..

I asked you a question.

How do you know you're not worshiping Saturn by gathering on Saturday?

The reason I asked this is because your answer will determin where your heart is. If you answered my question you would probably say, "I worship on Saturday, the seventh day, because God blessed and sactified it at creation and protected it by His Law for all His people to enjoy without hinderance. It's a joy to honor and obey God." I would say to that answer, praise God! But if your answer was, "I gather on Saturday because Saturday is the day of Saturn and when Saturn reaches a special point in it's orbit I will find peace." My answer to that would be, "You need Jesus". Do you see the difference in heart and mind set between the two answers, this is what God is looking at. If I'm a Satrun worshiper and I say, have a blessed Saturday my heart and mind set would not be on God but if I was a Sabbath keeper in a right loving relationship with God my heart and mind set would be on God.

When the average Christians says, "Merry Christmas" they are not saying, "Merry Jesus' death" what they are saying is, Christmas day is a happy day that represents Jesus' birth. Just like when the Sabbath keeper who loves God says, "Happy Sabbath" he is not telling you to worship Saturn.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The first part of your post dealing with saturn worship was a bit convoluted to me but I understand your premise.

God does wink in our times of ignorance, but we cannot claim that innocence once we know better. A person that is sincerely worshipping God in an apostate system will be justified but as soon as they know of the apostasy, they are called to come out of her. Why couldn't they just stay in that system and continue worshipping in the same manner that pleased God before? Their sanctification would not be acceptable. Does God not tell us to not touch the unclean thing? Something is only unclean when we are made aware of it's filthiness.

Was God pleased when the Israelites setup the golden calf (their tradition) and sincerely worshipped Jehovah with the feast to the Lord? He was not pleased at all with their sincerity or intentions, only obedience to what He required. In other words, they knew better but thought God's requirements weren't that exacting. We all know how that story played out. Had they worshipped God in this manner before Sinai, they would have been forgiven for their ignorance but not after they knew.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Well, my intentions are not to judge but to enlighten and to warn of possible danger to the believer. The way I look at it for myself, I figure God won't care one way or another if I don't celebrate a worldly custom.

In sentence #1, you indicate you do not intend to judge. In sentence #2, you judge. Help me understand this.

But there is a chance, however small, that He may care and not like it.

It seems that you view God as being a person who is quick to disapprove and find displeasure in His children.

My eternal salvation is too precious for me to take that chance..

If our eternal salvation hinges on whether or not we observe one tradition or another, I'm sure God would tell us. In contrast, I notice that salvation is a free gift that is not based on that which I do or don't do.

I look at Sabbath the same way, although I do understand the significance of the sanctity of that day. If, however, you esteem any day to be worthy of worship, why not make it Sabbath.

I don't worship days. I worship Jesus Christ.

That way you have your bets covered, so to speak..

Sounds a bit like Pascal's Wager. I'm not a fan.

BFA

 

[zeker33:9]

(1)What do you feel is our part in this covenant? By it's very definition, it has to be a two way agreement. This was the case for the old covenant eg; the blessings and cursing in Lev 26. We now have God's Law written in our heart and are under the new contract but don't you think we need to uphold our part of that contract? (2)Do you think you can be saved in sin? That no matter what you do in this life after conversion, you will be untouchable without the continuous need of repenting? How does that work in a Biblical context? I know that my Lord has asked me to keep His Commandments if I love Him...what if I don't?

I'll only touch on this part because it might be better discussed separately from this topic (the topic of this thread).

(1) Matthew 22:36-40

(2) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6:7)

This is how I see my salvation and I do not take it for granted... my opinions are my own and even though I premise a discussion on my belief, if I am shown Biblically that I am wrong, then I will pray the Spirit guide me into a new understanding.

Your opening argument was whether the up coming Holiday was Holy or evil. Those who have been discussing this topic with you have been showing you that 1) it's a matter of the heart 2) that we aren't worshiping a man in a red suit or a tree, but Jesus Christ. I for one posted a paraphrased account of the Christmas Story concerning the birth of Jesus Christ that can be found in the Bible. Can you find a command that says that you cannot observe His birthday?

Btw, sharing the Gospel is not imposing your beliefs on anyone. You are merely sharing the Good News with them, they can take it or leave it. But they will not have the excuse "I never heard about You Lord". We plant or we water, God gives the increase.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

In sentence #1, you indicate you do not intend to judge. In sentence #2, you judge. Help me understand this.
I called Christmas a worldly custom... thats hardly a judgement. It was invented by man was it not?


It seems that you view God as being a person who is quick to disapprove and find displeasure in His children.
Already addressed in my previous post but I'll reiterate. How many times was God angry and punished His children in the wilderness? And for what?
Moses smote the rock twice and failed to speak to it to bring forth the water. Did God disapprove of this seemingly small mistake? What happened to Aarons sons? Did what they do constitute a death sentence? So, in answer to your question, I view God as just and loving but exacting in His requirements of us. God does not want to find displeasure in us but unfortunatly because of our sinful natures, He has alot to disapprove of and can only accept us to Himself through Jesus.


If our eternal salvation hinges on whether or not we observe one tradition or another, I'm sure God would tell us. In contrast, I notice that salvation is a free gift that is not based on that which I do or don't do.
You might find this analogy trite, but according to what you just said, your salvation is not affected if you commit adultry or steal or kill?
You may say that these things are not the same as regarding Christmas but do some people not make an idol of this time of year? Lie to their children? You may say that you don't do that part of the holiday but how can you be seperate and not be touching the unclean thing if you're piecemealing the celebration by what you feel is acceptable. It would be like going into a Catholic service and telling yourself that because you don't take the host and say the sacrements, that you are worshipping God in an acceptable manner.

I don't worship days. I worship Jesus Christ.
Neither do I but I try and honour my Saviour by not indulging in worldly activities that grieve His name, not glorify it.

Sounds a bit like Pascal's Wager. I'm not a fan.
I corrected that statement in a previous post but was being figurative and not literal in it's use.
BFA

You may think I'm too black and white in my faith but the grey areas are where satan lurks and I try and avoid them as much as possible.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Btw, sharing the Gospel is not imposing your beliefs on anyone.

Try sharing the Gospel with a Jew or an athiest or try explaining to a homosexual that God is not pleased with their behaviour and loves them enough to save them from it. Pretty sure you'll get a few 'don't impose your beliefs on me'. You may even get charged with a hate crime...

 

[zeker33:9]

Try sharing the Gospel with a Jew or an athiest or try explaining to a homosexual that God is not pleased with their behaviour and loves them enough to save them from it. Pretty sure you'll get a few 'don't impose your beliefs on me'. You may even get charged with a hate crime...

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:10-12)

With the exception of the last comment, been there done that! They will be without excuse.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I called Christmas a worldly custom... thats hardly a judgement.

The word "worldly" is often used interchangably with "sinful." Perhaps that wasn't your intent?

You might find this analogy trite, but according to what you just said, your salvation is not affected if you commit adultry or steal or kill?

No, I don't lose salvation by sinning or gain it by being sinless. Any man guilty in one point is guilty in all. I am a murderer. I am a thief. I am an adulterer. And yet Jesus Christ has mercy and me and I an heir -- not according to law, but according to a promise.

You may say that these things are not the same as regarding Christmas but do some people not make an idol of this time of year?

That's not for you and I to judge.

You may think I'm too black and white in my faith but the grey areas are where satan lurks and I try and avoid them as much as possible.

I submit that spiritual maturity demonstrates itself in many ways, including the acceptance of grey.

BFA

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

No, I don't lose salvation by sinning or gain it by being sinless. Any man guilty in one point is guilty in all. I am a murderer. I am a thief. I am an adulterer. And yet Jesus Christ has mercy and me and I an heir -- not according to law, but according to a promise.

So when Jesus said to the harlot to go and sin no more, He was just using a figure of speach?

And when we are told to be perfect, even as you Father in heaven is perfect, that's a platitude and not an admonition?

As far as the grey comment...wow... all I know is I am in the world but am not of this world. I'll stay over here in my corner being peculiar.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

So when Jesus said to the harlot to go and sin no more, He was just using a figure of speach?

Jesus didn't tell her, "Go and strive yourself to sin no more." Whatever successes she had in the area of sin (and we could only speculate), were the result of the Holy Spirit and not her efforts.

And when we are told to be perfect, even as you Father in heaven is perfect, that's a platitude and not an admonition?

Jesus doesn't say "Go and strive to be perfect." Whatever success we have in this area are the result of the Holy Spirit. We cannot take any credit for perfection.

As far as the grey comment...wow... all I know is I am in the world but am not of this world. I'll stay over here in my corner being peculiar.

I wonder whether this is what God called us to do.

Many wars are fought over one man's idea of black and white. And yet God is anything but glorified through it all.

BFA

 

[k4c]

The first part of your post dealing with saturn worship was a bit convoluted to me but I understand your premise.

God does wink in our times of ignorance, but we cannot claim that innocence once we know better. A person that is sincerely worshipping God in an apostate system will be justified but as soon as they know of the apostasy, they are called to come out of her. Why couldn't they just stay in that system and continue worshipping in the same manner that pleased God before? Their sanctification would not be acceptable. Does God not tell us to not touch the unclean thing? Something is only unclean when we are made aware of it's filthiness.

Was God pleased when the Israelites setup the golden calf (their tradition) and sincerely worshipped Jehovah with the feast to the Lord? He was not pleased at all with their sincerity or intentions, only obedience to what He required. In other words, they knew better but thought God's requirements weren't that exacting. We all know how that story played out. Had they worshipped God in this manner before Sinai, they would have been forgiven for their ignorance but not after they knew.

What if I were to celebrate Jesus' birth on Januray 7th or September 4th, would that be better?

You do believe celebrating birthdays is okay, don't you?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

While I don't think the celebration of Christ's birth needs to be done on a particular day (think doing it throughout the year with singing of advent songs, thats what we do), doing it on any other day thats not tied to a pagan festivity would show the focus of your worship better.

Thats why I posted about celebrating Christ's baptism on halloween... it mixes the Holy with the profane and God cannot be fully exalted.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You do believe celebrating birthdays is okay, don't you?

Well, I still celebrate my wifes birthday because it's important to her but I try not to do my own.

I guess to celebrate a childs birthday as a rememberance of the gift that God gave to the parents and to let the child know how special he or she is to not only the parents but to God would be a good use of a birthday celebration.

 

[k4c]

While I don't think the celebration of Christ's birth needs to be done on a particular day (think doing it throughout the year with singing of advent songs, thats what we do), doing it on any other day thats not tied to a pagan festivity would show the focus of your worship better.

Thats why I posted about celebrating Christ's baptism on halloween... it mixes the Holy with the profane and God cannot be fully exalted.

There is no day unclean or unholy in itself, God owns all days. Sunday is a weekly pagan holiday but does that me it's a pagan holidy for God's people? Does that mean God's people should stay indoors every Sunday and do nothing in fear of partaking in the pagan day? We should redeem the time, days, weeks, years for God. If December 25th is a pagan day for the pagans, it doesn't have to be for God's people. We can exalt Christ, remember His birthday, gather with friends and family in honor of Jesus, not some sun god. We can do the same on Sunday, even though Sunday is a weekly pagan holiday. The weak Christian would have a problem with all this because they struggle with these things because they play on the conscience.

Remember, sin that is not clearly spelled out in God's word is sin when we believe it's sin. A day in itself is not sinful but it can become sinful if our thoughts are not right about the day. As far as December 25th, Sunday or any other day claimed by pagans. To me it all belongs to God so let's take back the day for God and exalt Him on all these days.

 

[zeker33:9]

Thats why I posted about celebrating Christ's baptism on halloween... it mixes the Holy with the profane and God cannot be fully exalted.

ECR,

As I read your post and the final comment you made, it made me think of Paul at Mars Hill.

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. (Act 17:22-23)

Paul went to the very place that he knew men would be gathered, Jesus did this too when He preached in the synagogues and the temple. Thing is, if you don't take the Gospel to the people wherever they are, how might they hear it? They aren't going to come to a church to hear a message being given, they aren't going to come to a Bible Study. So like Paul sometimes we have to go where they are, on days we know they are gathered. Knowing full well that we may not be received by the overall group, but we may reach one or two.

I agree with K4C here:

To me it all belongs to God so let's take back the day for God and exalt Him on all these days.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Well, it seems we are at a stalemate of sorts....