Hocus Pocus ????

[narnia59]

By that definition then we are all co-redemptors....so, as I said in another post (maybe another thread?) is that Mary is just another woman used by God.

Jesus is the Redeemer, and yes, we are all co-redeemers.

In context, when Mary is referred to as co-redemptrix, it does not mean that Jesus is co-redeemer, as many immediately try to re-define it to meaning.

This does not mean that Mary does not have a special and unique role within the body of believers. It does not reduce her to being 'just one of us'. For I was not chosen by the Father to be the one person to participate in the Incarnation.

 

[mont974x4]

Jesus is the Redeemer, and yes, we are all co-redeemers.

In context, when Mary is referred to as co-redemptrix, it does not mean that Jesus is co-redeemer, as many immediately try to re-define it to meaning.

This does not mean that Mary does not have a special and unique role within the body of believers. It does not reduce her to being 'just one of us'. For I was not chosen by the Father to be the one person to participate in the Incarnation.

And yet, you are as special and useful to Him as any other believer...even as Mary.

 

[narnia59]

And yet, you are as special and useful to Him as any other believer...even as Mary.

I am only 'as useful' as my will allows me to be. All believers are not equal in this area

 

[mont974x4]

I am only 'as useful' as my will allows me to be. All believers are not equal in this area

True, but that is the fault of the individual. The question is, are we going to be willing and obedient or do we have to be swallowed by a big fish first?

 

[narnia59]

True, but that is the fault of the individual. The question is, are we going to be willing and obedient or do we have to be swallowed by a big fish first?

Hopefully we are working to turn over our will every day, and allowing Christ to re-make us in his image.

And you are correct, it is totally up to the individual and how they respond to the grace they've been given. This is why it is not inapproriate to acknowledge Mary as being our model in this area.

 

[mont974x4]

Acknowlegde? Sure. Venerate? no.

 

[Trento]

Why should I accept a magazines idea of truth?


The Bible says God is no respecter of persons. Never are we told to or pray to anyone.

When a saint enters into the joy of their Master, they are "put in charge of many things" (Mat 25:21)

When we pray for one another we are participating in the mediation but we are not the mediator. Catholics feel that saints in heaven can pray for us just as well (or infinitely better) than our friends on earth. Praying with the Saints detracts from the worship of God anymore than praying with friends detracts from worship of God.
I recently visited the Catacombs, just outside of Rome. It was an amazing experience. I felt a strong connection with the First Christians who left a written record on the walls of the Catacombs as a testimony of their beliefs. I came upon a wall of hundreds of inscriptions asking the martyred Peter and Paul to pray for them.

Scripture says we were "all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). Christians are one body which is not divided by death or anything else (Rom 8:38-39). Christians in heaven are still members of that body of Christ? We are invited to honor the "heroes" of the faith (Heb 6:12, 11:1-40, Jas 5:10-11). I honor those heroes and I feel a unity with them.

" ... we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . ." (Hebrews 12:1 - RSV)

 

[mont974x4]

Again, no where are we told to pray TO anyone other than God. No where in Scripture do we see talking to someone who is dead to be presented in a good way.

The rcc has taken simple ideals and built false doctrines on them making verses say and mean more than the text actually supports.

 

[BrightCandle]

In 1997—the most recent year for which global statistics are currently available—the Church had an overall increase in membership of over ten million, only a little more than half of which can be accounted for by baptisms under the age of seven, and an increase in spite of the loss of members due to death and defection.

And the Catholic Church is growing not only in the world at large but in America in particular. In 1998—the most recent year for which national statistics are available—the U.S. Catholic population had an overall increase of 455,000, including 162,000 conversions to the Catholic Church (i.e., cases of people joining other than baptisms of those below the age of seven).
Catholic growth rates in both the United States and the world dwarf what any other church is doing. Nobody else in the world gets an net increase of ten million people in a year, and nobody else in America gets a net increase of half a million people in a year.

Even if we look at just U.S. membership growth without infant baptism, nobody else in America gets 162,000 new non-infant members in a year, nor does any other American church have an overall increase of half a million members a year.
Growth rates are no indication of truth, and religious affiliation should be based on truth. This is really the bottom line. It doesn't matter how many adherents a religion has.

In the USA, if you removed the Hispanic baptisms and infant baptisms you would most likely see a net loss here in the USA, among the Anglo members caused by the priest sex scandals.

I agree that truth is the better parameter for judging a church, not size. However, the 1 billion member statistic has been quoted often in CF to marginalize smaller Protestant and Evangelical churches.

 

[Thekla]

Acknowlegde? Sure. Venerate? no.

the words/actions imitate and venerate are related, even intertwined. Paul repeatedly admonishes others to "be imitators of me" and of those who keep to Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

Where is the line they cross into worship/prayer to those they shouldn't?

 

[BrightCandle]

Again, no where are we told to pray TO anyone other than God. No where in Scripture do we see talking to someone who is dead to be presented in a good way.

The rcc has taken simple ideals and built false doctrines on them making verses say and mean more than the text actually supports.

Exactly. If Mary was indeed to be a co-mediator with Jesus, then would not Paul have been shown that when he wrote the book of Hebrews, which has the most in depth view of the work of Jesus as our Great High Priest and Mediator. What is very profound is that there is NO mention of Mary at all as co-mediator and co-redemprix. Therefore, we must conclude that this whole notion of Mary be such is based on tradition, not Scripture.

 

[mont974x4]

venerate
Verb

• S: (v) reverence, fear, revere, venerate (regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of) "Fear God as your father"; "We venerate genius"

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=venerate



Looks clearly unbiblical to me as it does imply an atitude of worship/idolotry.

 

[Thekla]

Where is the line they cross into worship/prayer to those they shouldn't?

this can only be seen by God -- its in the heart.

I suspect some sport enthusiasts will be found "guilty" of worship

 

[mont974x4]

this can only be seen by God -- its in the heart.

I suspect some sport enthusiasts will be found "guilty" of worship

I'm sure they would, and they'd be no less guilty.

 

[Thekla]

venerate
Verb

• S: (v) reverence, fear, revere, venerate (regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of) "Fear God as your father"; "We venerate genius"

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=venerate



Looks clearly unbiblical to me as it does imply an attitude of worship/idolotry.

this is a modern definition (dictionaries record current useage; they also infrequently do well with rarefied use within a subculture, including how some NT "changed" existing definitions to 'capture' a new spiritual reality).

Venerate can still be applied to the meaning "respect"; anotherwords, if your kids obey you, or don't mouth-off when they disagree, they are showing respect/veneration. But likely not worshiping you

 

[mont974x4]

There is a difference between my kids honoring me and what the rcc does with Mary. If it didn't cross any lines there would be no discussion of the IC (Mary being sinless), or praying to her, calling her a co-redemptrix, etc.

Keep it simple. Keep it biblical.

 

[Thekla]

if you're interested, in the Mariology subforum,
"Ascension of Mary" thread, post # 260:

an explanation of paraklesis and proseuche which may be helpful

 

[mont974x4]

Thanks. I did take a look at the post.


Still, the idea of praying (however you define it) to saints in Heaven isn't biblical. No where in Scripture do we see talking to the dead presented in a good light. No where are we told to, or encouraged to, or see a good example of, ask the saints in heaven to intercede for us or to join in agreement in prayer with us.

 

[Thekla]

Thanks. I did take a look at the post.


Still, the idea of praying (however you define it) to saints in Heaven isn't biblical. No where in Scripture do we see talking to the dead presented in a good light. No where are we told to, or encouraged to, or see a good example of, ask the saints in heaven to intercede for us or to join in agreement in prayer with us.

when our prayer is true prayer (in agreement with God), then our prayer is in agreement with those in heaven.

There are examples in books not accepted by protestants (sorry for the term ). Further, we do not believe that Christ's body - His Church- is divided by anything; as Paul says, not even death can divide us from Christ. Those who have died in Christ are 'alive'.