Hocus Pocus ????

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Also, I will also ask that you refrain from misrepresenting what I say.

answer my question please I am making an argument.



Thanks

 

[TraderJack]

1. Beliefs or customs taught by one generation to the next, often orally. For example, we can speak of the tradition of sending birth announcements.

Ok, lets start this over.

Number one, this is a debating forum for what?

Number two, that would make the context of my poser of a definition of "tradition", what?

Here is a hint, I did not ask for a Wikipedia definition that is applied to the culture:

Tradition

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The word tradition comes from the Latin word traditio which means "to hand down" or "to hand over." It is used in a number of ways in the English language:

1. Beliefs or customs taught by one generation to the next, often orally. For example, we can speak of the tradition of sending birth announcements.

Since you are new here, I will let you know that citing Wikipedia as a source here will be dismissed by most people since Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

Also, the question is not a general definition of "tradition", but the definition that the Roman Catholic religion applies to it.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Yes wikipedia is often a bad source....but I think that the simple definition of tradition from wikipedia suffices...

I am not new here


I am done with this thread. I have already gotten in trouble so I know when to let something go.

You failed to answer ALL my questions I.E. Was Christianity not first an oral tradition and secondly where does the Bible say sola scriptura

since we cannot come to an argument were both of us will actualy answer each others questions I am going to let this go.

You win I lose!

God bless you Jack and have an awasome new year.


Pax Christi,

Brother Justin

 

[TraderJack]

Yes wikipedia is often a bad source....but I think that the simple definition of tradition from wikipedia suffices...

But you see, Wikipedia or any dictionary's general definition is NOT the theological definition ascribed by Rome to the word, "tradition".

It is the Roman Catholic theological definition that is keeping in the CONTEXT of the actual discussion here.

I am not new here

I see, you are using a sockpuppet. Why don't you want us to know who you really are?

I am done with this thread.

Come back when you are ready to learn the truth.

You win I lose!

How sad. This is not about winning for losing anything.

It is about the Truth. You know that which Jesus said the true worshipers of the Father would worship in Spirit AND Truth.

 

[Uphill Battle]

thats funny... Augustine.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

But you see, Wikipedia or any dictionary's general definition is NOT the theological definition ascribed by Rome to the word, "tradition".

It is the Roman Catholic theological definition that is keeping in the CONTEXT of the actual discussion here.







I see, you are using a sockpuppet. Why don't you want us to know who you really are?



Come back when you are ready to learn the truth.



How sad. This is not about winning for losing anything.

It is about the Truth. You know that which Jesus said the true worshipers of the Father would worship in Spirit AND Truth.

Its to late the truth has already set me free!

Praise Jesus


Pax

Brother Justin

 

[TraderJack]

thats funny... Augustine.

Have a nice life.

 

[TraderJack]

Its to late the truth has already set me free!

Really? By having a god that is evolving?

Tell us how exactly.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Really? By having a god that is evolving?

Tell us how exactly.

How do YOU know what God is or isnt doing?

Can i borrow your secret decoder ring?

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Have a nice life.

Oh nice flame dude!!!

ROUND AND ROUND WE GO WHERE THE INSULTS WILL STOP NO BODY KNOWS!!!!!!!

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Really? By having a god that is evolving?

Tell us how exactly.

Once again my comment is taken out of context.

God is not confined by your definition nor your interpritation he is not "Physicaly" evolving /sigh and you try to say im new at this!

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Jack I can make blanket statments all day here let me make one now


"Come back to the OTC when you want to find the truth of faith"

That isn't an argument.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Oh nice flame dude!!!

ROUND AND ROUND WE GO WHERE THE INSULTS WILL STOP NO BODY KNOWS!!!!!!!

ah, that one wasn't an insult. I am leaving the forums in a few days.

it's just an disingenous send off, that's all. Dont' sweat it.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

ah, that one wasn't an insult. I am leaving the forums in a few days.

it's just an disingenous send off, that's all. Dont' sweat it.

Yeah one loving and caring Jesus filled Christian brother to another right ;P!



Pax

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Well I am leaving work off to go to Church to be a pegan! Jack your welcome to come to the OTC with me any time just look me up!


Pax

 

[Uphill Battle]

Have a nice life.

don't worry, AWC... I will.

 

[lionroar0]

don't worry, AWC... I will.

Maybe I should see if I get in touch with his favorite person. TLF.

Peace

 

[BigNorsk]

Interesting Marv, although quite flawed. God's gift isn't given over and over again, that would make his first gift worthless. that belief doesn't support an all-powerful God, it deminishes God's power and gives it to man, Priest.

....while we're at it, do you Lutherans still think your eating Christ's flesh and Blood?

Tyndale,

I think maybe you misunderstand, I am not saying that a person constantly goes from saved to unsaved and back again. We do continue to share the law and gospel with those who appeared at one time to be true believers and who have appeared to turn, because we never know for sure. Instead of getting into unhelpful thinking as to predestination, we simply accept that if a person has desire then that is evidence that he is not hopelessly lost for it means the Holy Spirit is working on him.

The gift that God gives over and over is his grace. It has different effects depending on the person. It saves the unsaved, it sanctifies the saved.

And of course the Lutherans still believe that in Communion we receive bread and wine, Christs true and real body and blood. We believe that because scripture demands it.

1Co 10:16 nas Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

Marv

 

[Trento]

LOL. Rome does not base it's doctrines on the Scriptures, or that would be sola scriptura.

Catholic doctrines not accepted by Protestants had a developmental history analogous to doctrines that were accepted by Protestants (such as the Trinity or the divinity and humanity of Christ. Such developments were, , the natural and beneficial consequences of reason working on the original revealed truth to draw out consequences that were not obvious at first thus become dogma.

These two verses clearly say that everything is NOT in the Bible, and that understanding and discernment by the Church will increase over time.

Matt 10:26, "Therefore, do not be afraid of them. FOR THERE IS NOTHING CONCEALED THAT WILL NOT BE DISCLOSED, AND NOTHING HIDDEN THAT WILL NOT BE REVEALED."

John 16:12-13, "Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. BUT WHEN HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, HAS COME HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THE TRUTH. FOR HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY, BUT WHATEVER HE WILL HEAR HE WILL SPEAK, AND THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU."

Neither does Rome base it's doctrines and practices on the "unanimous consent of the fathers" as it claimed at Trent and Vatican I, because Rome readily admits that the dogmas of the immaculate conception and assumption of Mary were never, ever taught by the Apostles or the early church fathers.
So, tell us something, why is it that the Apostles, nor any of the early church fathers ever taught a single thing about the dogmas of the immaculate conception and assumption of Mary, and that those teachings did not appear anywhere until taught by the heretical cult of the Gnostics?

This never ceases to amaze me. There are over a dozen Protestant web sites of all denominations and individuals here that show and brag that Athanasius was the one who first listed their canon of Scripture yet these same people will never admit that at the same time this Bishop believed that Mary was ever Virgin. Both came out of Tradition and all the Reformers believed it.

If its ok for Catholic bishop Athanasius, 4 centuries later, to retro-acknowledge an apostle-held binding belief of canon, then it is also acceptable for the same bishop , to retro-acknowledge an apostle-held binding belief about Mary's ever Virginity.

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."
Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235),in ULL,94

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."
Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary."
Ephraim,Hymns on the Nativity,15:23(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,XIII:254

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother."
"Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin."
Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."
Augustine,Nature and Grace,42[36](A.D.415),in NPNF1,V:135


St. Denis the Areopagite in his first century book entitled the "Books of Divine Names" records a funeral panegyric pronounced by Hierotheus, who purported that the Apostles had been divinely warned of the impending death of the Virgin Mary. All, except St. Thomas, managed to return in time for Her death and funeral. For three days the Apostles and other faithful kept up a vigil at the Virgin’s tomb, where they heard at times the distinct sound of heavenly music. When St. Thomas finally arrived, he requested to see the body of the Virgin Mary. To everyone’s surprise, when the tomb was opened Her body was not there, only flowers and Her burial shroud being left in the sepulchre.30



" 'St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.' "
John of Damascene,PG(96:1)

From the words of a holy man of God who was born in 310AD and who dedicated his life in preserving the original scriptures and Triditions.
------ "If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius,Panarion,78:23(A.D. 377),in PG 42:737

As the most glorious Mother of Christ,our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him."
Modestus of Jerusalem,Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae(PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634) from Munificentis simus Deus

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Lets take a little look at what Martin Luther himself said about Mary:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace…Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ…Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother, God is his father. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522) Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees…If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Our prayer should include the Mother of God…What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor…We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her…He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).

Sorry to say but the father of the reformation was also a devotie to the veneration of the blessed virgin...of course it comes as no surpise since the founder of the reformation was a Catholic monk....and in return a dirty pegan like the rest of us


Pax