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Hocus Pocus ????

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mont974x4

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How do YOU know what God is or isnt doing?

Can i borrow your secret decoder ring?
No secret decoder ring required. His Will and everything about His character and who He is can be found in Scripture and the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth....not the church, the Holy Spirit.
 
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sunlover1

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Sorry to say but the father of the reformation was also a devotie to the veneration of the blessed virgin...of course it comes as no surpise since the founder of the reformation was a Catholic monk....and in return a dirty pegan like the rest of us :)

Pax

And then you type "pax"?

Sanctamaria, I'm not interested in what Luther
believed about Mary. I'm interested in knowing
what GOD desires we do.
IMO, we are to call her blessed.
That's all good isnt it?

There's no reason to be unkind to those
who hold to different beliefs than you do.

They'll know we're Christians by our LOVE
for one another,
NOT by what we think is right about Mary.
:thumbsup:
sunlover
 
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BrightCandle

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Oh brother. Actually it's the dioceses that paid for settlements and restitutions not the Vatican.

Lots of bread but no meat.

I suppose there are figures to back up the claims of millions of Catholics leaving the church right??

Peace



Yes, you are correct when it comes to who is paying for the millions of the dollars paid out in legal fees related to the global priest sex scandals. I used the word "Vatican" to symbolize the RCC church as a whole being that it has a centralized model of organization, with authority over all of the dioceses worldwide. I don't have hard figures regarding the blood letting of members in the worldwide Catholic church. But, it is well known that Rome is trying to stop the huge losses of membership in Central and South American in particular to Protestant and Evangelical churches, which are experiencing explosive growth in historically Catholic countries.
 
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mpok1519

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just theological ritual; absolution of sins through repenting, communion and confession are very much alike religious pilgrimages.

Going to church and praying is as much a religious ritual as this in a way. Its just another form of profession of faith. Regardless of what the rites and rituals are intended to do(such as baptism, communion), its the meaning behind it that matters; to display a devotion of one's beliefs.

Not a bad thing.
 
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BrightCandle

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When you start accurately representing your opponents' arguments, people will treat you with deserved respect.

But pretending that Catholics believe Mary grants forgiveness or that indulgences are for the forgiveness of sins is the opposite of accurate. It's disingenuous.

I base my supposition on Pope John Paul II remarks. "In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God's plan, Mary is the 'woman' (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood, which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."

JPII view of Mary was as a co-mediator with Jesus our High Priest. Therefore, if Jesus can grant forgiveness of sins, then Mary should be able to as well, if she is a co-mediator. I'm not expressing my view, but JPII's view.
 
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lionroar0

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I base my supposition of Pope John Paul II remarks. "In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God's plan, Mary is the 'woman' (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood, which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."

The correct understanding here is that Mary gave birth to Jesus. By saying yes to the God she interceded for all of mankind and obtained the grace of salvation who is Jesus Christ.

This is a historical and biblical fact.

JPII view of Mary was as a co-mediator with Jesus our High Priest. Therefore, if Jesus can grant forgiveness of sins, then Mary should be able to as well, if she is a co-mediator. I'm not expressing my view, but JPII's view.

No they are not JPII views. They are your biased views of the CC. The CC teaching is that God grants forgiveness.


Peace
 
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BrightCandle

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The correct understanding here is that Mary gave birth to Jesus. By saying yes to the God she interceded for all of mankind and obtained the grace of salvation who is Jesus Christ.

This is a historical and biblical fact.



No they are not JPII views. They are your biased views of the CC. The CC teaching is that God grants forgiveness.


Peace


Are you in denial as to what JPII stated? Yes, it is open to interpretation. But, it is well known that JPII promoted the idea of Mary being a co-mediator with Jesus. Yes, this view has not be officially canonized by the RCC, but there are millions of Catholics who hold this view of Mary and promote it. It clearly gives one the idea that you can pray to Mary instead of to Jesus for help, for salvation, for forgiveness of sins.
 
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lionroar0

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Are you in denial as to what JPII stated? Yes, it is open to interpretation. But, it is well known that JPII promoted the idea of Mary being a co-mediator with Jesus. Yes, this view has not be officially canonized by the RCC, but there are millions of Catholics who hold this view of Mary and promote it. It clearly gives one the idea that you can pray to Mary instead of to Jesus for help, for salvation, for forgiveness of sins.
I'm not denying what he stated. I'm denying your faulty interpretation of his statement. That's the difference.

As you have yet to demonstrate the correct position of your opposition.

I don't even see why I should even bother to explain it. It's not like your actually going to try and understand it and then disagree with it.

Peace
 
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narnia59

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Are you in denial as to what JPII stated? Yes, it is open to interpretation. But, it is well known that JPII promoted the idea of Mary being a co-mediator with Jesus. Yes, this view has not be officially canonized by the RCC, but there are millions of Catholics who hold this view of Mary and promote it. It clearly gives one the idea that you can pray to Mary instead of to Jesus for help, for salvation, for forgiveness of sins.
Actually, the view of JPII and Catholics is that we all participate in the redemptory work of Christ. Unless you are one who believes in pre-destination, this is a belief that is shared by Protestants as well although they would never say it in this way.

However, for example, let's say you know someone who does not know Christ, and you witness to them. They have no real interest, but you then begin to pray for them to recognize the truth in what you've told them. After you have been faithfully lifting them up to Christ for several years, they turn to Christ and accept Him.

So the question then becomes -- did your prayer and witness play a role in their accepting Christ or not? If you don't believe it did, then why do it? If you do believe it did, then you have cooperated with and participated in the redemptory work of Christ, for without your participation this person would have been lost.

This is the theology that is contemplated with the title of co-redemptrix. People assume "co" means "equal to". That is not Catholic theology. (From a language perspective, "co" may or may not be equal to. For example, a "co-pilot" is "one who assists the pilot but is not in command".) You can't be a co-pilot without a pilot. And without Jesus, there is no redemption period. But we are all co-redeemers in that we cooperate and participate with the redemptory work of Christ, and Mary as always is the best model we have for our Christian walk.
 
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narnia59

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So if that is true, then do you know of Catholic leaders who have called other than Mary Co-Redemptrix or Co-Redeemers? According to what you are saying that should be common speach among Catholics and not an area of dispute.

Marv
It's not an area of dispute among Catholics who understand the teachings of the church. When people isolate the title from the teaching and take it out of context of church teaching is when it becomes an area of dispute.


As summarized by Vatican theologian (Fr. Jean Galot, S.J.) in the official Vatican publication, L'Osservatore Romano:
The title [Co-redemptrix] is criticized because it would suggest an equality between Mary and Christ. The criticism has no foundation.... Co-redemption implies a subordination to the redemptive work of Christ, because it is only a cooperation and not an independent or parallel work. Hence any equality with Christ is excluded.... The word “co-redemption,” which means “cooperation in redemption,” can be applied to every Christian and to the whole Church. St. Paul writes: “We are God’s co-workers (1 Cor. 3:9). [47]
 
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Trento

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Are you in denial as to what JPII stated? Yes, it is open to interpretation. But, it is well known that JPII promoted the idea of Mary being a co-mediator with Jesus. Yes, this view has not be officially canonized by the RCC, but there are millions of Catholics who hold this view of Mary and promote it. .


This is Orthodox Apostolic Christian belief.


In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52


Accordingly, a virgin did conceive and bear 'Emmanuel, God with us.' This is the new nativity; a man is born in God. And in this man God was born, taking the flesh of an ancient race, without the help, however, of the ancient seed, in order that He might reform it with a new seed, that is, in a spiritual manner, and cleanse it by the re-moral of all its ancient stains. But the whole of this new birth was prefigured, as was the case in all other instances, in ancient type, the Lord being born as man by a dispensation in which a virgin was the medium. The earth was still in a virgin state, reduced as yet by no human labour, with no seed as yet cast into its furrows, when, as we are told, God made man out of it into a living soul. As, then, the first Adam is thus introduced to us, it is a just inference that the second Adam likewise, as the apostle has told us, was formed by God into a quickening spirit out of the ground,--in other words, out of a flesh which was unstained as yet by any human generation. But that I may lose no opportunity of supporting my argument from the name of Adam, why is Christ called Adam by the apostle, unless it be that, as man, He was of that earthly origin? And even reason here maintains the same conclusion, because it was by just the contrary operation that God recovered His own image and likeness, of which He had been robbed by the devil. For it was while Eve was yet a virgin, that the ensnaring word had crept into her ear which was to build the edifice of death. Into a virgin's soul, in like manner, must be introduced that Word of God which was to raise the fabric of life; so that what had been reduced to ruin by this sex, might by the selfsame sex be recovered to salvation. As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The delinquency which the one occasioned by believing, the other by believing effaced. But (it will be said) Eve did not at the devil's word conceive in her womb. Well, she at all events conceived; for the devil's word afterwards became as seed to her that she should conceive as an outcast, and bring forth in sorrow. Indeed she gave birth to a fratricidal devil; whilst Mary, on the contrary, bare one who was one day to secure salvation to Israel, His own brother after the flesh, and the murderer of Himself. God therefore sent down into the virgin's womb His Word, as the good Brother, who should blot out the memory of the evil brother. Hence it was necessary that Christ should come forth for the salvation of man, in that condition of flesh into which man had entered ever since his condemnation."
Tertullian,Flesh of Christ,17(A.D. 212),in ANF,III:536
 
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mont974x4

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It's not an area of dispute among Catholics who understand the teachings of the church. When people isolate the title from the teaching and take it out of context of church teaching is when it becomes an area of dispute.


As summarized by Vatican theologian (Fr. Jean Galot, S.J.) in the official Vatican publication, L'Osservatore Romano:
The title [Co-redemptrix] is criticized because it would suggest an equality between Mary and Christ. The criticism has no foundation.... Co-redemption implies a subordination to the redemptive work of Christ, because it is only a cooperation and not an independent or parallel work. Hence any equality with Christ is excluded.... The word “co-redemption,” which means “cooperation in redemption,” can be applied to every Christian and to the whole Church. St. Paul writes: “We are God’s co-workers (1 Cor. 3:9). [47]
By that definition then we are all co-redemptors....so, as I said in another post (maybe another thread?) is that Mary is just another woman used by God.
 
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Trento

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I don't have hard figures regarding the blood letting of members in the worldwide Catholic church. But, it is well known that Rome is trying to stop the huge losses of membership in Central and South American in particular to Protestant and Evangelical churches, which are experiencing explosive growth in historically Catholic countries.


In 1997—the most recent year for which global statistics are currently available—the Church had an overall increase in membership of over ten million, only a little more than half of which can be accounted for by baptisms under the age of seven, and an increase in spite of the loss of members due to death and defection.

And the Catholic Church is growing not only in the world at large but in America in particular. In 1998—the most recent year for which national statistics are available—the U.S. Catholic population had an overall increase of 455,000, including 162,000 conversions to the Catholic Church (i.e., cases of people joining other than baptisms of those below the age of seven).
Catholic growth rates in both the United States and the world dwarf what any other church is doing. Nobody else in the world gets an net increase of ten million people in a year, and nobody else in America gets a net increase of half a million people in a year.

Even if we look at just U.S. membership growth without infant baptism, nobody else in America gets 162,000 new non-infant members in a year, nor does any other American church have an overall increase of half a million members a year.
Growth rates are no indication of truth, and religious affiliation should be based on truth. This is really the bottom line. It doesn't matter how many adherents a religion has.
 
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Trento

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mont974x4

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