Hocus Pocus ????

[Thekla]

Again, what was the vision about?

the Transfiguration ?

Christ is God.

 

[Gary51]

the Transfiguration ?

Christ is God.

Is that what you really believe.

It is plainly obvious that Christ is God, that fact is shown thoughout the NT... without the need of a vision.

Therefore you are wrong.

And I am not going to tell you what it was about... I doubt your present understanding would be able to accept it.

Hey, but this could be an interesting subject for it's own thread.

 

[Thekla]

I I doubt your present understanding would be able to accept it.

likely so

 

[WarEagle]

I think I did that. Unless you reject that the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Evangelicals, Church of Christ, etc not Christian denominations?

Lutherans, Presbyterians, and some CoC sects are Christian denominations. We all agree on the essentials.

Can you give us a list of the "Christian" denominations you say are united on the essential doctrines?

So let's see, I've been asking you to name two Christian denominations for a couple of pages now and you won't show me the respect of naming just two, but then you want me to sit here and type out a list of every single Christian denomination?

Get real!

I understand that you're frustrated because we're unified around the essentials and your religion's whole schtick is based on the fact that it's the one true religion and we're just all wandering around in the dark, but, come on. It only goes to make you look like a hypocrite when you refuse to back up your claim by naming just two Christian denominations, but then turn around and demand that I spend all day typing out an exhaustive list of every existing Christian denomination.

You answer my question, which I've been asking for two pages now, and then I'll consider answering yours.

 

[Archer93]

Narnia59's posts numbers 153, 155 and 157-9 inc mention and compare specific denominations.

 

[sunlover1]

Thanks sis.. I hadn't heard from her yet..Let's all take a break here to lift them up..

Father I lift my brother and his wife and family to You. Lord, I know they love you and are committed to You..Lord right now surround them with Your peace that passes understanding..Lets them feel Your presence...Give the doctors wisdom and touch Your healing hand upon him. Thank You Lord for your care to your saints..In Jesus almighty and holy name..Amen..

ANd please bless HisKid Lord.
Amen, thank you Father for hearing our prayer.

 

[sunlover1]

Quote:
So, which one should I turn to? And don't say 'A Bible-based one', because there are many who claim this yet still interpret key Christian doctrines differently.


Let's start with the Missouri Synod Lutherans.

From their statement of faith:
Grace alone
God loves the people of the world, even though they are sinful, rebel against Him and do not deserve His love. He sent Jesus, His Son, to love the unlovable and save the ungodly.
Faith alone
By His suffering and death as the substitute for all people of all time, Jesus purchased and won forgiveness and eternal life for them. Those who hear this Good News and believe it have the eternal life that it offers. God creates faith in Christ and gives people forgiveness through Him.
Scripture alone
The Bible is God's inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine.

Sound familiar? So they make the claim to be a grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone church.

Do your doctrines agree with all of theirs?

Now here's a minister who runs an "evangelical outreach" association and claims that:
THE BIBLE is the inspired and inerrant Word of the Living God which contains everything we need to know regarding salvation (2 Tim. 3:15) and how to behave in order to please God (1 Thess. 4:1-8). It is final authority and is completely sufficient in itself for all matters dealing with doctrine and practice (2 Tim. 3:16,17). His Word is forever standing (Matt. 24:35). All correction and teaching must, therefore, be backed by the Bible to be valid.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/doctrine.htm

And guess what? He teache that OSAS is an unbiblical doctrine.

However, I bet if I go read the Southern Baptist site, they will refute that, yet also claim that the Bible is the sole authority in these matters.

And the Churches of Christ:
Authority: The Churches of Christ claim the Bible as their sole authority. Their byword is "Where the Scriptures speak, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent, we are silent."

However,they also reject OSAS, and teach that baptism is necessary for salvation.

And then there's the Presbyterians.

The Scripture is their sole source of authority.

However, they believe that baptism actually results in regeneration and therefore baptize infants (gasp).

The United Churches of Christ are fun.

They, too believe that:
The Scripture is their source of authority.

However, they also state that:
But members are free to follow their own perception of God's will.


At least they're honest about that.

Narnia59's posts numbers 153, 155 and 157-9 inc mention and compare specific denominations.

Here you go War Eagle, I posted the verses she mentions.

 

[WarEagle]

Here you go War Eagle, I posted the verses she mentions.

OSAS is not listed among the doctrines the Bible defines as essential. I don't know what church of Christ she's referring to, but it sounds like the Boston CoC, which isn't Christian.

 

[tulc]

Father I lift my brother and his wife and family to You. Lord, I know they love you and are committed to You..Lord right now surround them with Your peace that passes understanding..Lets them feel Your presence...Give the doctors wisdom and touch Your healing hand upon him. Thank You Lord for your care to your saints..In Jesus almighty and holy name..Amen..

Praying bro!
tulc(let us know how it's going?)

 

[PaladinValer]

Curious; my post is still ignored...

...again, can I assume you are unable to rebut my arguments?

 

[narnia59]

Lutherans, Presbyterians, and some CoC sects are Christian denominations. We all agree on the essentials.



So let's see, I've been asking you to name two Christian denominations for a couple of pages now and you won't show me the respect of naming just two, but then you want me to sit here and type out a list of every single Christian denomination?

Get real!

I understand that you're frustrated because we're unified around the essentials and your religion's whole schtick is based on the fact that it's the one true religion and we're just all wandering around in the dark, but, come on. It only goes to make you look like a hypocrite when you refuse to back up your claim by naming just two Christian denominations, but then turn around and demand that I spend all day typing out an exhaustive list of every existing Christian denomination.

You answer my question, which I've been asking for two pages now, and then I'll consider answering yours.

You're kidding, right? I'm not frustrated at all since I provided you with several, but perhaps you need to define what you consider to be 'the essentials' that all Christians would believe in unison?

The Lutherans for example, believe that baptism is necessary for salvation and that regeneration occurs at baptism. This is why they baptism infants. (Any Lutherans, please correct me if I've mis-stated anything -- this would be my understanding of your doctrine).

Baptists believe that nothing occurs at baptism, but that regeneration begins when a person 'accepts' Christ. This cannot occur until a person has reached the age of reason, and that baptism while proper to do because the Lord commanded it, is in no ways necessary for salvation (same comment to the Baptists about correcting me).

So you don't believe whether or not baptism is required for salvation and what is the cause of regeneration in the life of a believer is one of the 'essentials'?

Again, I would like a list of the 'essentials' from your point of view please.

Regarding Catholics viewing everybody else as 'wandering around in the dark', is hardly consistent with our belief regarding other Christian churches that 'the Church of Christ is present and operative on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.", and they "are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation".

 

[narnia59]

Here you go War Eagle, I posted the verses she mentions.

Thank you sunlover.

 

[narnia59]

OSAS is not listed among the doctrines the Bible defines as essential. I don't know what church of Christ she's referring to, but it sounds like the Boston CoC, which isn't Christian.

I am referring to the Churches of Christ that are know by:

Today, Churches of Christ usually have these distinctive traits:

• The refusal to hold to any creeds other than the Bible itself (see II Timothy 3:16-17), sometimes known as sola scriptura
• The practice of repentance and believer's baptism by immersion in Christ's name in order to receive forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit (e.g., Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16)
• Autonomous, non-denominational congregational church organization with oversight by a plurality (Titus 1:5) of male elders (Titus 1:6)
• The weekly observance (Acts 20:7) of Communion or Eucharist (referred to as the Lord's Supper)
• The practice by most congregations of a cappella worship singing (although several other related congregations use instruments while usually having these other traits; these are usually known as Christian Churches).

 

[Uphill Battle]

Merry Christmas. Peace to all of you.

 

[WarEagle]

You're kidding, right? I'm not frustrated at all since I provided you with several, but perhaps you need to define what you consider to be 'the essentials' that all Christians would believe in unison?

I define them as those doctrines that the Bible defines as essential.

The Lutherans for example, believe that baptism is necessary for salvation and that regeneration occurs at baptism. This is why they baptism infants. (Any Lutherans, please correct me if I've mis-stated anything -- this would be my understanding of your doctrine).

Actually, that isn't what Lutherans believe.

Baptists believe that nothing occurs at baptism, but that regeneration begins when a person 'accepts' Christ.

Actually, that isn't what Baptists believe.

So you don't believe whether or not baptism is required for salvation and what is the cause of regeneration in the life of a believer is one of the 'essentials'?

Not in the sense that you're defining it, no.

Again, I would like a list of the 'essentials' from your point of view please.

Same ones as listed in the Bible.

Regarding Catholics viewing everybody else as 'wandering around in the dark', is hardly consistent with our belief regarding other Christian churches that 'the Church of Christ is present and operative on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.", and they "are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation".

I see. So then, you're now saying that the "30,000 denominations" have an objective standard to rally around? Or are you now saying that we're a legitimate part of the "one true church that Christ founded"?

 

[narnia59]

Originally Posted by HisKid1973
Thanks sis.. I hadn't heard from her yet..Let's all take a break here to lift them up..

Father I lift my brother and his wife and family to You. Lord, I know they love you and are committed to You..Lord right now surround them with Your peace that passes understanding..Lets them feel Your presence...Give the doctors wisdom and touch Your healing hand upon him. Thank You Lord for your care to your saints..In Jesus almighty and holy name..Amen..

ANd please bless HisKid Lord.
Amen, thank you Father for hearing our prayer.

My prayers are with you as well.

Blessed Christmas Eve to you all

 

[HisKid1973]

Merry Christmas. Peace to all of you.

Peace to you also...May Christ be lifted up as we gather together and live for Him in our word and deed in this uncertain year we head into..shalom..Kim

 

[narnia59]

Quote:
The Lutherans for example, believe that baptism is necessary for salvation and that regeneration occurs at baptism. This is why they baptism infants. (Any Lutherans, please correct me if I've mis-stated anything -- this would be my understanding of your doctrine).

Actually, that isn't what Lutherans believe.

From the Lutheran confessions:
Article IX of the Large Cathechism – of Baptism
Therefore it is necessary to baptize little children, that the promise of salvation may be applied to them, according to Christ’s command, Matt. 28, 19: Baptize all nations. Just as here salvation is offered to all, so Baptism is offered to all, to men, women, children, infants. It clearly follows, therefore, that infants are to be baptized, because with Baptism salvation [the universal grace and treasure of the Gospel] is offered.

Article 3 – Holy Baptism
II. Through Baptism, as the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, God saves us, and works in us such righteousness and cleansing from sins that he who perseveres in this covenant and confidence unto the end is not lost, but has eternal life.

IV. Baptism is the washing of regeneration for the reason that in it we are born anew, and sealed with and graciously [by grace] given the Spirit of adoption.


False and Erroneous Doctrine of the Calvinists --

Concerning Holy Baptism:
I. That Baptism is an outward washing of water, whereby an inner washing [ablution] from sins is only signified.
II. That Baptism neither works nor confers regeneration, faith, the grace of God, and salvation, but only signifies and seals these.
III. That not all who are baptized with water but only the elect, receive therewith the grace of Christ or the gift of faith.
IV. That regeneration occurs not in and at [with] Baptism, but not till afterwards in adult years, and in some [many] not until old age.
V. That salvation depends not upon Baptism, and accordingly emergency baptism [baptism in case of necessity] should not be permitted in the Church, but if the service of the Church [of the ordinary ministry of the Church] cannot be obtained, the child should be allowed to die without Baptism.

I apologize to any Lutherans if my interpretation is not an accurate one, for I understand how people can sometimes pick and choose from the teaching of a church and mis-represent it. So please correct me if my assessment is incorrect.

However WarEagle, unless you can provide something concrete to indicate I am wrong, I stand by my initial assessment of what Lutherans believe regarding Baptism and salvation.

 

[narnia59]

Baptists believe that nothing occurs at baptism, but that regeneration begins when a person 'accepts' Christ.

Actually, that isn't what Baptists believe.

From the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith:

Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

For the above reasoning, they do not baptize infants. And you SBC's are welcome to correct me if I've misinterpreted that as well.

 

[narnia59]

WarEagle, you have made the claim that all Bible-believing denominations, those who hold the Bible as the sole authority for doctrine have no difference in the "essential" elements.

You refuse to state what you believe those essential elements are, but I would fathom a guess that most people would consider the means of salvation to be quite essential.

So until you can at least define the discussion, it appears to be ended. However, please don't state we RCC can't name two different denominations who are Bible-only and differ on the 'essentials' when you refuse to define what those 'essentials' are.