Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

[disciple1]

Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 7:23 "And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’

Galatians chapter 4
Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

 

[FredVB]

Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 7:23 "And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’

Galatians chapter 4
Hagar and Sara
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

Obedience to Yahweh God's will, shown in revelation along with leading from God's Spirit, is not being under the law and in bondage to the law, even with obedience to God's will shown in the commandments in the law. There is even obedience with conformance to God's perfect will that is desirable, even with what is shown in the beginning and what there is finally for eternity, and what there would be with really meaning, God's will on earth as it is in Heaven, as is said in prayer to God, with living for that. The difference with the new covenant, even with it shown to come, in the book of Jeremiah, was with all the priesthood with everything it involved, all the sacrifices, and all the things in ritual to be made clean, in what matters spiritually, having fulfilment in Christ, and with Christ's fulfilment for obedience which is needed and taking judgment for our failure in that, while still for turning us from sin with the disobedience to God.

 

[disciple1]

Obedience to Yahweh God's will, shown in revelation along with leading from God's Spirit, is not being under the law and in bondage to the law, even with obedience to God's will shown in the commandments in the law. There is even obedience with conformance to God's perfect will that is desirable, even with what is shown in the beginning and what there is finally for eternity, and what there would be with really meaning, God's will on earth as it is in Heaven, as is said in prayer to God, with living for that. The difference with the new covenant, even with it shown to come, in the book of Jeremiah, was with all the priesthood with everything it involved, all the sacrifices, and all the things in ritual to be made clean, in what matters spiritually, having fulfilment in Christ, and with Christ's fulfilment for obedience which is needed and taking judgment for our failure in that, while still for turning us from sin with the disobedience to God.

I don't understand what your saying does this go along with it.
Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

 

[bugkiller]

Obedience to Yahweh God's will, shown in revelation along with leading from God's Spirit, is not being under the law and in bondage to the law, even with obedience to God's will shown in the commandments in the law. There is even obedience with conformance to God's perfect will that is desirable, even with what is shown in the beginning and what there is finally for eternity, and what there would be with really meaning, God's will on earth as it is in Heaven, as is said in prayer to God, with living for that. The difference with the new covenant, even with it shown to come, in the book of Jeremiah, was with all the priesthood with everything it involved, all the sacrifices, and all the things in ritual to be made clean, in what matters spiritually, having fulfilment in Christ, and with Christ's fulfilment for obedience which is needed and taking judgment for our failure in that, while still for turning us from sin with the disobedience to God.

Then what about Mat 5:17-18?

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant

Please supply the verse that contains the term "moral law".

Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Jas_2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.



Shut Door Documents from the Estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html
.

 

[BobRyan]

Page 1 of this thread - including the opening post - - is about the "historicity" of the efforts to change the LAW of God --

Oct 8, 2015 #1

Efforts to make that change either rely on the Pope or else on the 7th point in this list -- while still admitting to the Bible truth of the first 6 points --

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

We see that in these cases --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Please supply the verse that contains the term "moral law".

It refers to the "LAW that defines what sin is".


So then two or three places to start.

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 -- as opposed to the law of circumcision in this case.
the LAW condemns all under sin -- Rom 2:19-21, Gal 3:22-23, Romans 7



Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”


Gal 3:22-23
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

 

[BobRyan]

The question should be... Is the door shut or is it open?

The question should be "is it hard for you to focus on the topic of this thread?"

 

[BobRyan]

Now back to the topic of the thread - the "historicity" of the change.

When "Sola scriptura" is faced with catholic complaints as in the quote found in the OP - ... expect the subject to be derailed.

=================================
The Sabbath Commandment Ex 20:8-11 says that the "seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God".

And in Ex 16 we find these words "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath".

In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath is the 7th day of creation week - and according to Genesis 2 it is then that the Sabbath is "Sanctified", blessed, set apart.

The Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith, D.L. Moody and many others admit that the "Sabbath was made for mankind" (Mark 2:27) and it began in Eden.

So then when - or how - was the Sabbath Commandment changed? How was the obligation, sanctity, blessing of the 7th day transferred to week-day-1??

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=============================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

Gen 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20: 8, 11
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So how is that the Law of God is up for "edit" for change? For taking one of the Commandments - and "repointing it" so that now "another day" is blessed, sanctified, and made holy??



Indeed the RCC claims to have the authority to do that.

Possibly one more reason why the "sola scriptura" model of Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 gets some push back on certain threads by those who agree with the RCC's right to do such things.

 

[BABerean2]

So then when - or how - was the Sabbath Commandment changed? How was the obligation, sanctity, blessing of the 7th day transferred to week-day-1??

It was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the Seed(Christ) could come.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

In the text below the Apostle Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage and tells the Galatian church to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.


The inheritance comes through the New Covenant instead.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.



In Acts chapter 15 the Apostle Peter compares the Law of Moses to a yoke of bondage, which they could not bear.


Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(He could not have been talking about circumcision, because they did bear it.)


It was a "sign" of the Sinai covenant, "added" 430 years "after" the promise to Abraham.

Exo_31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exo_31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


It is the "sign" of a broken covenant (contract).

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

The Judaisers are still with us today.


Shut Door Documents from the Estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html
.

 

[BABerean2]

Sabbath in the New Covenant of Christ
Former SDA Pastor: Dale Ratzlaff

 

[BobRyan]

Former SDA Pastor: Dale Ratzlaff
[/MEDIA]

The actual Bible - on the Sabbath for all eternity - for all mankind

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - Is 66:23
"the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind" Mark 2:27

"I will make a NEW Covenant with them...This is the covenant that I will make with the house of ISRAEL and the house of Judah ... I will write my LAW on their mind and heart" Heb 8:6-10 and Jer 31:31-33.

Those here who are New Covenant Christians - know what I am talking about.

 

[BobRyan]

It was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the Seed(Christ) could come.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

In the text below the Apostle Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage and tells the Galatian church to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.


The inheritance comes through the New Covenant instead.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.



In Acts chapter 15 the Apostle Peter compares the Law of Moses to a yoke of bondage, which they could not bear.


Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(He could not have been talking about circumcision, because they did bear it.)


It was a "sign" of the Sinai covenant, "added" 430 years "after" the promise to Abraham.

Exo_31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exo_31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


It is the "sign" of a broken covenant (contract).

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

The Judaisers are still with us today.


.

Galatians 3 refutes your teaching --


In Gal 1:6-9 Paul says there has always-and-ever been only ONE Gospel.

In Gal 3:7 that ONE Gospel - was "preached to Abraham".

In John 8 - "Abraham SAW My day and was glad"

In Gen 26:5 Abraham KEPT God's Commandments, Laws, Statutes.

1. In Gal 3 as in Romans 3 Paul makes the case that the Law applies to ALL mankind regardless of Jew or Gentile and that by that Law ALL are condemned as sinners - ALL need a savior.

2. As Paul points out in Gal 3 the Law of God does not "Save" it is not a "kind of savior" that used to work in the OT but now doesn't work so well. It never functioned as "savior".

3. Paul points out in Romans 7 and in Romans 10 that a person is born-again "Saved" at the moment that "faith comes". RND makes a good point about Heb 11 providing a great example of the giants of the faith - for whom "Faith had come" and they were "found pleasing to God" as a result of that Gospel transaction in their lives.

This is the same gospel event Paul is identifying in Gal 3 for all mankind. All mankind is lost - kept under bondage to sin and under condemnation of the law UNTIL we come to Christ and accept salvation. This was true in OT AND in NT. No change.

As Paul argues in Gal 3:7 the Gospel "was preached to Abraham".

As Paul argues in Heb 4:1 "the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to them".

As Paul argues in Gal 1:6-11 there has been only ONE Gospel in all of time!

Even in the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

And in Heb 8:6-10 that same Jeremiah 31:31-33 LAW of God - the moral law that defines sin - is "Written on the mind and heart" under the NEW Covenant made in Heb 8 with the "House of ISRAEL"

Paul shows a change in our relationship to the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin - taking place when we are converted... only when we are converted... which is when that law is written on the heart.

Notice "the details"

Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Rom 6
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? ... 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. ...
.12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BABerean2]

In Gen 26:5 Abraham KEPT God's Commandments, Laws, Statutes.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Your attempt to claim the Gospel is equal to commandment keeping, has the Apostle Paul contradicting his own testimony and therefore cannot be correct.

Abraham kept the commandments that God gave him.

He went where he was told to go.

He circumcised his male children.

In the New Covenant we are not commanded to do either of these.

Abraham also had a sexual relationship with Hagar, that he was not commanded to do.



You are attempting to deny that the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise given to Abraham in Galatians chapter 3.

You are also attempting to ignore the fact that Paul compared the Sinai covenant to bondage in Galatians chapter 4 and compelled the Galatian believers to cast out the Sinai covenant and embrace the New Covenant, instead.

You are also ignoring the "yoke" of bondage in Acts chapter 15.


Concerning the Gospel, the following would be helpful.

.

 

[BobRyan]

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Your attempt to claim the Gospel is equal to commandment keeping,
.

Christ condemned the false gospel of "commandment breaking" in Matthew 5.
James condemns it in James 2.

Paul explains the "commandment breaking false gospel" in Romans 8

Paul tells us that the ONE gospel given to Abraham -- has the New Covenant in it in Hebrews 8:6-10 given by Christ and in Galatians 3 we find that the LAW of God condemns the entire world as sinners even AFTER the cross.

Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[BobRyan]

You are also ignoring the "yoke" of bondage in Acts chapter 15.

Acts 15 never condemns scripture as a "yoke of bondage" -- in fact in Acts 20 those same folks want Paul to take a Nazarite vow.

 

[Bob S]

The fact is Christians are not under the ritual laws of Torah so we are not under condemnation for not observing what is now past history. Those who believe they are still under ritual laws of Torah have been deceived and some are here trying to deceive others.`

 

[bugkiller]

Galatians 3 refutes your teaching --


In Gal 1:6-9 Paul says there has always-and-ever been only ONE Gospel.

In Gal 3:7 that ONE Gospel - was "preached to Abraham".

But your insistence is that is the law as noted in your quote of Gen 26:5 below.

In John 8 - "Abraham SAW My day and was glad"

In Gen 26:5 Abraham KEPT God's Commandments, Laws, Statutes.

This isn't the 10 Cs as you insist according to Moses.

2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Deut 5

and that covenant is -

13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deut 4

1. In Gal 3 as in Romans 3 Paul makes the case that the Law applies to ALL mankind regardless of Jew or Gentile and that by that Law ALL are condemned as sinners - ALL need a savior.

Except Christians. See for example chapters 6 and 7.

2. As Paul points out in Gal 3 the Law of God does not "Save" it is not a "kind of savior" that used to work in the OT but now doesn't work so well. It never functioned as "savior".

So why bother with it?

3. Paul points out in Romans 7 and in Romans 10 that a person is born-again "Saved" at the moment that "faith comes". RND makes a good point about Heb 11 providing a great example of the giants of the faith - for whom "Faith had come" and they were "found pleasing to God" as a result of that Gospel transaction in their lives.

Bit not by keeping the law.

This is the same gospel event Paul is identifying in Gal 3 for all mankind. All mankind is lost - kept under bondage to sin and under condemnation of the law UNTIL we come to Christ and accept salvation. This was true in OT AND in NT. No change.

Obviously you have no concept of the above comment.

As Paul argues in Gal 3:7 the Gospel "was preached to Abraham".

Your argument is that gospel is the law. How can this be? I noticed you forgot to include Gen 26:5 for support.

As Paul argues in Heb 4:1 "the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to them".

This gospel isn't the law.

As Paul argues in Gal 1:6-11 there has been only ONE Gospel in all of time!

Yes and it was also preached to Adam - Gen 3:15.

Even in the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

There's that half truth again. A half truth is a full lie.

And in Heb 8:6-10 that same Jeremiah 31:31-33 LAW of God - the moral law that defines sin - is "Written on the mind and heart" under the NEW Covenant made in Heb 8 with the "House of ISRAEL"

Sorry Bob but what is written on the heart isn't he covenant made with their (Israel's) fathers according to either passage.

Paul shows a change in our relationship to the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin - taking place when we are converted... only when we are converted... which is when that law is written on the heart.

And to think I was getting excited till you said the 10 Cs are written on the heart.

Notice "the details"

I did and you don't like it one little bit.[quoet]

Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.[/quote]Oh how I wished you understood the above passage you quoted. I also noticed the details you failed to emphasize.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT

There's that half truth again. A half truth is a full lie.

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Those who require the keeping of the 4th are requiring the flesh to perform to their liking. The law is about the actions of the flesh. Just read Romans.

Rom 6
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? ... 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. ...
.12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

You're trying to apply this to force compliance tot eh law which Rom 7 says we're now delivered from.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

<snip>

Sheesh!! this gets old.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Acts 15 never condemns scripture as a "yoke of bondage" -- in fact in Acts 20 those same folks want Paul to take a Nazarite vow.

But it does say the law is.

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

Acts 15 never condemns scripture as a "yoke of bondage" --

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?



Shut Door Documents from the Estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html
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