Historical Interpretation: valid or not??

[MidnightCry]

Greetings to all,

I am trying to determine what is the next prophetic event according to the Bible. I have questions about the SDA historical interpretation of end time events, such as the seven trumpets in Revelation. So I thought it would be interesting to take a closer look at them. I have been doing some reading and searching and this is what I have found.

The people what assert that the trumpets have been fulfilled are faced with an insurmountable task. In order to make that claim, those who support this view must show a jury of neutral peers (laymen and scholars alike) that certain historical events conform to the specifications found in the text of Revelation. For more than 200 years historicists have not been able to do this. Even among historicists, there is no consensus view on the exact meaning, timing, purpose and fulfillment of each trumpet-event. If, as they claim, trumpet two has been fulfilled, why is the fulfillment so obscure? What prevents historicists from widely agreeing on a historical event that satisfies the text? The answer is simple. There is an absence of convincing evidence.

Let's look at the second and third trumpets and see how the historicists' conclusions differ from the text. C.Mervyn Maxwell has written a book presenting the historical view of the seven trumpets. (The following is from his book, God Cares, Volume II, Pacific Press Publishing Association, 1985) Maxwell endorses ideas proposed by Dr. Edwin Thiele who proposed a historical fulfillment of the seven trumpets. (pages 232-261) Their findings are as follows:

Trumpet 1 -- Fall of Jerusalem AD 70
Trumpet 2 -- Fall of pagan Rome AD 378-476
Trumpet 3 -- Corruption of the professed church of Christ 476-538
Trumpet 4 -- Darkness of the middle ages AD 538-1299
Trumpet 5 -- Mohammedan scourge AD 1299-1449
Trumpet 6 -- Scourges under Turkish control AD 1449-1840
Trumpet 7 -- Terrifying outbreaks of human passion and hate (end-time)

OK. Look at the second trumpet conclusion above presented by Maxwell.
Now lets look at the Bible text:

"And the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed." Rev. 8:8-9

Do these texts describe the fall of pagan Rome in AD 476? Is John talking about the ancient fall of Rome or the coming impact of a great asteroid? Taking the Bible just as it reads, the second trumpet event describes a great mountain burning with fire that was cast into the sea. This has a literal cause and literal effect. A third of the sea turned to blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. Could a huge asteroid slamming into one of earth's oceans accomplish the specifications required to fulfill this prophecy? Yes, and the scientific models have recently confirmed it. A white-hot asteroid impacting the sea would immediately bring the water to a boil, evaporating all the oxygen out of the water. Red algae would quickly form since it thrives in anoxic water. Sea creatures would die in the anoxic water and the resulting tsunami would sink all ships in a radius of hundreds of miles.

What do the verses really say:

1. A mountain burning with fire
2. Cast into the sea
3. One-third of the sea turns to blood
4. One-third of the sea creatures die
5. One-third of the ships are destroyed

Maxwell offers this interpretation on pages 238,239:

1. The mountain burning with fire represents the invading tribal nations and the rampage that brought about the fall of Rome. These conclusions are drawn from Jeremiah 51:24,25 where ancient Babylon is regarded as a destroying mountain and Daniel 2:35, 44,45 where the coming kingdom of God is compared to a mountain. (Why this particular trumpet exclusively applies to Rome is not mentioned.)

2. The sea represents peoples, languages, multitudes and nations. (He uses Revelation 17:1,15 to support this interpretation.)

3. Without offering further biblical support, the living creatures in the sea and the ships are purported to represent people and their material possessions. Since no textual support for this conclusion is given, the supposition remains a mystery.

4. There is no explanation which specifically addresses one-third of the sea turning to blood. In fact, no mention is made regarding the repetition of twelve "one-thirds" throughout the entire explanation of the seven trumpets.

There is nothing in the second trumpet text that specifically mandates that it has to be associated with the fall of Rome. Why does Mr. Maxwell get to decide this trumpet applies to the fall of Rome??

This whole historicist view drives me crazy. It makes no sense to me.
This is why I question it. Their view of the third trumpet is even worse.
I will show that next.

If you have read this whole post and can understand why I would question the historicist interpretation, please leave a comment. Or if you can explain the seven trumpets to me, please do.

YSIC,
midnightcry

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

As you have pointed out (or I guess the author Maxwell did) the understanding of certain prophetic passages needs to be viewed through a prophetic or symbolic lense. There is a criteria that was set out from William Miller for interpreting prophesy, a set of 'rules' to follow to gain an understanding... they are:

1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible. Matthew 5:18
2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study. 2 Timothy
3:15,16,17
3. Nothing revealed in the Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering.
Deuteronomy 29:29; Matthew 10:26, 27; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Philippians 3:15; Isaiah 14:11; Matthew
21:22; John 14:13, 14; 15:7; James 1:5, 6; 1 John 5:13, 14, 15.
4. To understand doctrine, bring all the Scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every
word have its proper influence, and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be
in an error. Isaiah 28:7-29; 35:8; Proverbs 19:27; Luke 24:27,44,45; Romans 16:26; James 5:19;
2 Pet. 1:19,20
5. Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound it to me,
and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be
thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, not the Bible. Psalms 19:7-11;
119:97-105; Matthew 23:8-10; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16; Ezekiel 34:18,19; Luke 11:52; Malachi 2:7,8
6. God has revealed things to come, by visions, in figures and parables, and in this way the same things
are often times revealed again and again, by different visions, or in different figures and parables. If you
wish to understand them, you must combine them all in one. Psalms 89:19; Hosea 12:10; Habakkuk 2:2;
Acts 2:17; 1 Corinthians 10:6; Hebrews 9:9, 24; Psalms 78:2; Matthew 8:13, 34; Genesis 41:1-32;
Daniel 2; 7; 8; Acts 10:9-16
7. Visions are always mentioned as such. 2 Corinthians 12:1
8. Figures always have a figurative meaning, and are used much in prophecy to represent future things,
times and events; such as mountains, meaning governments; beasts, meaning kingdoms, waters,
meaning people, lamps, meaning Word of God, day, meaning year. Daniel 2:35,44; 7:8,17; Revelation
17:1,15; Psalms 119:105; Ezekiel 4:6
9. Parables are used as comparison to illustrate subjects, and must be explained in the same way as
figures, by the subject and Bible. Mark 4:13
10. Figures sometimes have two or more different significations; as day is used in a figurative sense to
represent three different periods of time.
• Indefinite.
• Definite, a day for a year.
• Day for a thousand years.
If you put on the right construction it will harmonize with the Bible and make good sense, otherwise it will
not. Ecclesiastes 7:14; Ezekiel 4:6; 2 Peter 3:8
11. How to know when a word is used figuratively: If it makes good sense as it stands, and does no
violence to the simple laws of nature, then it must be understood literally; if not, figuratively. Revelation
12:1,2;17:3-7
12. To learn the true meaning of figures, trace your figurative word through your Bible, and where you find
it explained, put it on your figure, and if it makes good sense you need look no further; if not, look
again.
13. To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfillment of a prophecy: If you find every
word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your
history is the true event. But if one word lacks a fulfillment, then you must look for another event, or wait
its future development. For God takes care that history and prophecy doth agree, so that the true,
believing children of God may never be ashamed. Psalms 21:5; Isaiah 14:17-19; 1 Peter 2:6;
Revelation 17:17; Acts 3:18
14. The most important rule of all is, that you must have faith. It must be a faith that requires a sacrifice, and,
if tried, would give up the dearest object on earth, the world and all its desires, character, living,
occupation, friends, home, comforts and worldly honors. If any of these should hinder our believing any
part of Gods word, it would show our faith to be vain. Nor can we ever believe so long as one of these
motives lies lurking in our hearts. We must believe that God will never forfeit His word. And we can
have confidence that He that takes notice of the sparrow, and numbers the hairs of our head, will guard
the translation of His own word, and throw a barrier around it, and prevent those who sincerely trust in
God, and put implicit confidence in His word, from erring far from the truth, though they may not
understand Hebrew or Greek.
​

I have not read Maxwell's explaination of the trumpets... was he Adventist? The best that I have read was Uriah Smiths 'Daniel and Revelation' you can find it as a free PDF download online.

 

[JohnMarsten]

one can make prophecy mean whatever one wishes it to mean... sad story..;.

 

[MidnightCry]

Thanks ECR,

I have the book: Daniel and the Revelation, by Uriah Smith, revision copyrighted in 1944 by the Southern Publishing Association. It's really old. I have a hard time following the explanations of the trumpets.

C. Mervyn Maxwell was a professor of Church history in the 7th Day Adventist Theological Seminary at Andrews University. He was a member of the American Historical Assoc., and the American Society of Church History. He also taught at Andrews and Union College. He died in 1999, I believe. You can find his books on line.

I have never seen those rules before. I read them over and it seems to me, historicists have broken rule 5; which says scripture must be its own expositor. In other words the Bible should explain itself.

Also rule 11. How to know when a word is used figuratively: If it makes good sense as it stands, and does no violence to the simple laws of nature; then it must be understood literally, if not, figuratively.

And rule 12. To learn the true meaning of figures, trace the word through the Bible, and where you find it explained put it on your figure.

One other thing, these two writers, both Adventists, don't even agree on the same interpretation of the trumpets. It seems everyone has their own interpretation.

I don't understand how trumpet two can be connected to the fall of Rome. You would think the verse would mention something that referred to Rome, such as iron teeth, iron weapons. It would be so easy to see that it means Rome then.

Rule 11 says if it makes good sense as it stands and does not violate the laws of nature then it is literal. Trumpet two does make sense as it stands and it follows the laws of nature.

In fact, no mention is made regarding the repetition of twelve "one-thirds" throughout the entire explanation of the seven trumpets.

There has to be a better explanation than what these two writers have written. Besides I thought the trumpets and the plagues will affect the entire world, not just certain areas, such as Rome or Jerusalem or the Turks.

Further, history does not validate that the Ottoman Empire fell on August 11, 1840 and it is no surprise that history does not give August 11, 1840 any significance in Turkish history.

I will keep looking at other sources.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[MidnightCry]

I would like to take a look at the third trumpet. Keep in mind these two verses are adjacent to the two preceding verses of the second trumpet. In other words, Scriptural context is unchanged.

"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star,blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water--the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter." (Rev. 8:10,11)

The third trumpet tells us:

1. A great star, blazing like a torch fell from the sky
2. The star fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water
3. The name of the star is Wormwood
4. A third of the waters turn bitter and many people die from the water

C. Mervyn Maxwell, a 7th Day Adventist and a professor of church history interprets this passage as follows:

Trumpet 3 -- Corruption of the professed church of Christ 476-538

Maxwell states that the great star that fell to Earth is Lucifer. (Angels are referred to as stars in Job 38:7). "The Wormwood angel is therefore a bitter or poisonous angel." According to Maxwell's view, the springs of water or fountains represents the truth of God as promoted by Christian teachers--as in springs of living water. He derives this from Jeremiah 2:13 where God Rebukes Israel for forsaking Him, "the fountain of living waters, and hewing out for themselves, broken cisterns, that can hold no water." So, from this one text Maxwell concludes that "the third trumpet foreshadowed a polluting of Christian truth in God's church on Earth by poisonous Satanic errors taught by Christian teachers (from AD 476-538).

Notice in these two verses that people are literally identified as people. Why would God literally identify people in the third trumpet and not in the second? Why should we assume that the sea and the sea creatures in the second trumpet are symbolic of people when in the same context God literally identifies people in the third trumpet? Also, should we consider the bitter waters, the rivers and springs as literal or symbolic? If you cannot trust your own ability to read and understand this text, then whom will you trust to tell you what they are?

Maxwell treats the trumpets as though they were written with "impressionistic language." The use of impressionistic language is necessary when defending the historical position on the trumpets because everyone can see there is no record of literal fulfillment in the past.Historicists often look around in the Bible to find parallel passages that complement the larger picture they are trying to support -- namely, significant events or trends that can be found in ages past.

The use of parallel language can be both a big help and a big obstacle toward understanding Bible prophecies. The use of parallel language is the process of finding other passages that say similar things and substituting the easier idea with the more difficult prophetic passages. The problem with parallel passages is knowing how, when, and when not to use them.

I believe the third trumpet literally describes a great star, an asteroid blazing like a torch falling from the sky. The impact from this asteroid affects one-third of the rivers and one-third of the springs of water from which people drink (underground aquifers) become contaminated. The ground waves resulting from a great impact of a large asteroid would sheer septic lines and water wells and badly fracture the geological plates that make up and continent so that toxic waste and bacteria would leach into the underground reservoirs of drinking water. Large underground aquifers would soon become contaminated as diverted rivers force debris through the fractured plates of the continent. Millions of people would die of cholera and other infectious waterborne diseases.

The name applied to this star is Wormwood which literally means "poisonous water." (Jeremiah 9:15; 23:15) Even more, one must understand from parallel passages in the Old Testament that the name "Wormwood" is always used within the context of punishment for apostasy.

I believe the historicist interpretation of these trumpets (one and two) are inaccurate. The text in trumpet three is literal. It makes sense just as it reads and does not violate the laws of nature or science.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[OntheDL]

I would like to take a look at the third trumpet. Keep in mind these two verses are adjacent to the two preceding verses of the second trumpet. In other words, Scriptural context is unchanged.

"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star,blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water--the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter." (Rev. 8:10,11)

The third trumpet tells us:

1. A great star, blazing like a torch fell from the sky
2. The star fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water
3. The name of the star is Wormwood
4. A third of the waters turn bitter and many people die from the water

C. Mervyn Maxwell, a 7th Day Adventist and a professor of church history interprets this passage as follows:

Trumpet 3 -- Corruption of the professed church of Christ 476-538

Maxwell states that the great star that fell to Earth is Lucifer. (Angels are referred to as stars in Job 38:7). "The Wormwood angel is therefore a bitter or poisonous angel." According to Maxwell's view, the springs of water or fountains represents the truth of God as promoted by Christian teachers--as in springs of living water. He derives this from Jeremiah 2:13 where God Rebukes Israel for forsaking Him, "the fountain of living waters, and hewing out for themselves, broken cisterns, that can hold no water." So, from this one text Maxwell concludes that "the third trumpet foreshadowed a polluting of Christian truth in God's church on Earth by poisonous Satanic errors taught by Christian teachers (from AD 476-538).

Notice in these two verses that people are literally identified as people. Why would God literally identify people in the third trumpet and not in the second? Why should we assume that the sea and the sea creatures in the second trumpet are symbolic of people when in the same context God literally identifies people in the third trumpet? Also, should we consider the bitter waters, the rivers and springs as literal or symbolic? If you cannot trust your own ability to read and understand this text, then whom will you trust to tell you what they are?

Maxwell treats the trumpets as though they were written with "impressionistic language." The use of impressionistic language is necessary when defending the historical position on the trumpets because everyone can see there is no record of literal fulfillment in the past.Historicists often look around in the Bible to find parallel passages that complement the larger picture they are trying to support -- namely, significant events or trends that can be found in ages past.

The use of parallel language can be both a big help and a big obstacle toward understanding Bible prophecies. The use of parallel language is the process of finding other passages that say similar things and substituting the easier idea with the more difficult prophetic passages. The problem with parallel passages is knowing how, when, and when not to use them.

I believe the third trumpet literally describes a great star, an asteroid blazing like a torch falling from the sky. The impact from this asteroid affects one-third of the rivers and one-third of the springs of water from which people drink (underground aquifers) become contaminated. The ground waves resulting from a great impact of a large asteroid would sheer septic lines and water wells and badly fracture the geological plates that make up and continent so that toxic waste and bacteria would leach into the underground reservoirs of drinking water. Large underground aquifers would soon become contaminated as diverted rivers force debris through the fractured plates of the continent. Millions of people would die of cholera and other infectious waterborne diseases.

The name applied to this star is Wormwood which literally means "poisonous water." (Jeremiah 9:15; 23:15) Even more, one must understand from parallel passages in the Old Testament that the name "Wormwood" is always used within the context of punishment for apostasy.

I believe the historicist interpretation of these trumpets (one and two) are inaccurate. The text in trumpet three is literal. It makes sense just as it reads and does not violate the laws of nature or science.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Mervyn Maxwell's interpretation on the 7 trumpets is not historicist and does not represent the traditional protestant and historic Adventist beliefs.

 

[OntheDL]

Here is a look at the historcist (not historical) view of the prophecy.

http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/7church7seal7trumpet.pdf

 

[MidnightCry]

Mervyn Maxwell's interpretation on the 7 trumpets is not historicist and does not represent the traditional protestant and historic Adventist beliefs.

C. Mervyn Maxwell wrote a widely published book presenting the historical view of the seven trumpets. In his book, God Cares, volume II, Pacific Press Publishing Association, 1985 Maxwell endorses ideas proposed by Dr. Edwin Thiele who proposed a historical fulfillment of the seven trumpets.

Mervyn Maxwell was a professor of church history in the 7th Day Adventist Theological Seminary at Andrews University. He was a member of the American Historical Assoc., and the American Society of Church History.

I would think he had some influence on the view presented by the SDA Church. I was just using his view as one example of a historicist interpretation. Another view is presented by Uriah Smith in his book, Daniel and the Revelation. Both views are difficult to follow when reading them. They just don't make alot of sense to me. I find it very frustrating to read a historicist interpretation of the seven trumpets. I believe they are in error.

 

[OntheDL]

C. Mervyn Maxwell wrote a widely published book presenting the historical view of the seven trumpets. In his book, God Cares, volume II, Pacific Press Publishing Association, 1985 Maxwell endorses ideas proposed by Dr. Edwin Thiele who proposed a historical fulfillment of the seven trumpets.

Mervyn Maxwell was a professor of church history in the 7th Day Adventist Theological Seminary at Andrews University. He was a member of the American Historical Assoc., and the American Society of Church History.

I would think he had some influence on the view presented by the SDA Church. I was just using his view as one example of a historicist interpretation. Another view is presented by Uriah Smith in his book, Daniel and the Revelation. Both views are difficult to follow when reading them. They just don't make alot of sense to me. I find it very frustrating to read a historicist interpretation of the seven trumpets. I believe they are in error.

The 7 trumpets are actually quite easy to understand. As John was given a vision into the future (relative to him), the 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets draw similar parallels.

As the once pure church descended into apostasy, the trumpet came as messages of warning to the falling church. If you look at it that way and see what God used to warn/reprove the church through the ages and what the history actually recorded in biblical language, it's quite striking how obvious the historicist view is the only logic interpretation.

 

[MidnightCry]

The 7 trumpets are actually quite easy to understand. As John was given a vision into the future (relative to him), the 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets draw similar parallels.

As the once pure church descended into apostasy, the trumpet came as messages of warning to the falling church. If you look at it that way and see what God used to warn/reprove the church through the ages and what the history actually recorded in biblical language, it's quite striking how obvious the historicist view is the only logic interpretation.

You must not have read my earlier posts. Even the historicists do not agree on the interpretation of the trumpets. Historicists cannot agree on the location and meaning of the trumpets because the Bible does not explicitly say anything about the timing of each trumpet or its purpose.

In other words, there is nothing in the second trumpet text that specifically mandates that it has to be associated with the fall of Rome. To limit the second trumpet to the fall of Rome is to impose an interpretation upon the text that is unwarranted. Other historicists clearly understand this fact which is why there is no universal agreement.

By the way, which historicist view are you referring to that is so logical?

 

[stinsonmarri]

ECR:​

Uriah Smith book has a lot of errors in it. Plus he lied and said EGW saw an angel standing while he wrote. EGW and her son said it was not true and he would not allow her to write articles with Review and Herald for years. They made peace a few years before she died. ​

The Book of Revelation present events that show the last days. The seven trumpets provide how the great multitude is saved and the wrath of both the Lamb and Elohim. This is the Time of Trouble and not the Ottoman Empire and Islam which does not make sense at all! It starts with Rev 6:14-17 then Chapter Seven the angels hold the wind of strife which is still part of the six seal. The seventh seal provides the following seven Trumpets:​

1 First Trumpet: Hail and fire mingled with blood, ​

a) They were cast upon the earth
b) The third part of trees was burnt up
c) All the green grass was burnt

Note: Grass and trees always stand for people and this is a comet coming to the earth to hit one third of the people.

2 Second Trumpet: The Mountain burning with fire cast into the sea,
a) One-third of the sea turns to blood

b) One-third of the sea creatures die

c) One-third of the ships are destroyed​

Note: Mountain is an asteroid falling as ships attempt to aid victims from first wrath of Elohim. One third of the creatures in the sea die and one third of the ships are destroy again this is the Time of Trouble!​

3 Third Trumpet: A great star, blazing like a torch fell from the sky
a) The star fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water
b) The name of the star is Wormwood
c) A third of the waters turn bitter and many people die from the water

Note: A meteorite falls and hits one third of the drinking water and it becomes bitter. The Bibles clearly says that our bread and water will be sure for the remnant.​

4 Fourth Trumpet: The third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars;​

a) The third part of them (all the element that were hit) was darkened,
b) The day shone not for a third part of it,
c) The night likewise

Note: A third part of the sun, moon and stars are hit with a shower of meteorites. This darken them so that light would not be seen again showing this is the last days!​

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! Rev 8:13​

Note: Here the Bible gives the warning that the beast/man has received his power to take over the evil forces of Satan. The next three woes are devastating to this earth because these evil angels now control the earth and they will torture wicked men for five month.​

Finally it is amazing to me that these trumpets are not correctly understood as the Time of Trouble even after woes are given, the seven seals you see an angel stating to the four angels to hold the wind of strife. One of the elders state clearly that the great multitude comes through the great tribulation. They want have to deal with the scorching sun anymore and they will serve in Yahweh's Temple. How clear is this?????​

Blessing on the Feast of the Trumpet Yahweh's Holy convocation (a day to assemble and to worship) and not the Sabbath,​

stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

ECR:
Uriah Smith book has a lot of errors in it. Plus he lied and said EGW saw an angel standing while he wrote. EGW and her son said it was not true and he would not allow her to write articles with Review and Herald for years. They made peace a few years before she died. ​

Without you providing the quotes to back up your assertion, this is what I found...

Prescott to Assist Uriah Smith in Editing the Review (To Elder and Mrs. W. W. Prescott)--I wish that I could see you. I should like to talk with you. I shall feel thankful indeed if you can connect with Elder Smith in the editorial work on the Review and Herald. You have had experience as an editor, and you can be a great help to Elder Smith. He should not be left out of the editorial work. In no case drop his name off the editorial list. You should cooperate with him in the work, that you and his son Leon may together be the strength that he needs. . . . {10MR 352.1}
You can be a real comfort and blessing to Elder Smith, and he can be a decided help to you. The Lord will aid you, my brother, in this good work. --Letter 54, 1902, p. 1 (March 30, 1902). {10MR 352.2}

Sister White counseled brother Smith for a spirit of quarreling with brother Waggoner and possibly others. I am not sure what the context was but it was obvious that Smith was using his position as editor or the RH to voice his opposition through the paper. Nothing about his previous work of Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation..

... Especially should the book Daniel and the Revelation be brought before people as the very book for this time. This book contains the message which all need to read and understand...

Those who embrace the truth now, who have not shared in the experiences of those who entered the work in the early history of the message, should study the instruction given in Daniel and the Revelation, becoming familiar with the truth it presents.
Those who are preparing to enter the ministry, who desire to become successful students of the prophecies, will find Daniel and the Revelation an invaluable help. They need to understand this book. It speaks of past, present, and future, laying out the path so plainly that none need err therein. Those who will diligently study this book will have no relish for the cheap sentiments presented by those who have a burning desire to get out something new and strange to present to the flock of God...

The great, essential questions which God would have presented to the people are found in Daniel and the Revelation. There is found solid, eternal truth for this time. Everyone needs the light and information it contains...

The truth for this time has been brought out in many books. Let those who have been dealing in cheap sentiments and foolish tests, cease this work and study Daniel and the Revelation...

The interest in Daniel and the Revelation is to continue as long as probationary time shall last. God used the author of this book as a channel through which to communicate light to direct minds to the truth...

Ms 174, 1899, pp. 1-8. ("Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation," March 3, 1901.)

The Lord calls for workers to enter the canvassing field, that the books containing the light of present truth may be circulated. The people in the world need to know that the signs of the times are fulfilling. Take to them the books that will enlighten them. "Daniel and the Revelation," "Great Controversy," "Patriarchs and Prophets," and "Desire of Ages," should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in "Daniel and the Revelation" has been eagerly read in many lands by those who were hungering for truth. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls from darkness to light. It should everywhere be given a wide circulation.

PUR (Pacific Union Recorder)
Nov 6, 1902

In The Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, The Great Controversy, and in Daniel and the Revelation, there is precious instruction. These books must be regarded as of special importance, and every effort should be made to get them before the people.--Letter 229, 1903. {CM 123.2}

Notice that most of these quotes were later in her life... if she would have received instruction that the information contained in this book was in error, she never communicated it... at least not from what I can find.

 

[stinsonmarri]

ECR:​

I want to say this plainly that I have been a SDA a very long time and I know a lot of the history and controversy of this church. I've seen the rise of the Sheppard Rods it fanatical growth and its falling off. I've seen pastors leave this church and other force out because the leaders would not allow them to show the church their errors. But believe it or not I have written about the truth of the Feast days to GC and local pastor have tried to deter my stand but I am still an active member of the church. I will not leave because many that have come in do not understant the struggles that went on since EGW with this church. As I have told many EGW and many others did not believe in the trinity but that there are three Supreme Beings. I know the history of this church and I know that this is the church that was giving the last day message but all of it has not been heeded. The church as a whole have stop studying to correct the things they once believe that are in error and that is why we have the problems today. However there are those who will stand and call sin by it right name and stand up for Biblical truth!​

Here is proof again about where EGW differed with Uriah Smith book as I told you and the things she said that her son stated clearly from her writings.​

EGW's son, Arthur L. White, was the Secretary of the E. G. White Publications stated clearly:
Periodically, inquiry is made as to Mrs. E. G. White's attitude toward 'Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation', some asking if somewhere she has stated or at least implied that it is an inspired book ...Nowhere in Mrs. White's writings, published or unpublished, do we find reference to an angel standing by the side of Uriah Smith while he wrote. And certainly we find no indication that Mrs. White ever considered Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation to be an inspired book, thus inerrant in all its expositions ...Even though she spoke commendably of the volume, there are statements penned by Mrs. White which have a negative bearing on the inspiration of Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. Speaking, in the nineties, of Elder Smith's books, one of the leaders in our colporteur work asked Mrs. White, "You believe they are inspired, do you not?" Indicative of her recognition of the folly of the question, she replied, "You may answer that question, I shall not"-E. G. White Letter 15, 1895.​

At another time she was asked a similar question; "Sister White, do you think we must understand the truth for ourselves? Why can we not take the truths that others have gathered together and believe them because they have investigated the subjects, and then we shall be free to go on without taxing of the powers of the mind in the investigation of all these subjects? Do you not think that these men who have brought out the truth in the past were inspired of Elohim?"

(Arthur quotes his mother) "I dare not say they were not led of Elohim, for Yashua leads into all truth; but when it comes to inspiration in the fullest sense, I answer, No. I believe that Elohim has given them a work to do, but if they are not fully consecrated to Elohim at all times, they will weave self and their peculiar traits of character into what they are doing, and will put their mold upon the work'."-E. G. White, Review and Herald, March 25, 1890.​

Uriah Smith writing that Turkey is the king of the north, he placed his firm belief in this error and more that many today are so spiritually close minded about still acepting his errors that they find it difficult to move out of the box. Now there are some in the church who have returned to the early denominational teaching that the Papacy is the king of the north where I unstand according to both Daniel and Revelation that there are two kings. One is the Papacy and the other is the beast/man who places his palace between the Mediterranean Sea and Yahweh's Holy Mountain. Dan 11:45 ​

Arthur L. White continues to state:​

Two decades later, in writing regarding an interpretation of prophecy, given in Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, over which there had arisen some controversy, Mrs. White spoke against "magnifying the importance of the difference in the views held", and further said: "In some of our important books that have been in print for years, and which have brought many to a knowledge of the truth, there may be found matters of minor importance that call for careful study and correction." E. G. White, Ms. 11, 1910.​

At another time she wrote: "There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20, 1892

Um! This is similar to what she wrote in TM that I have been sharing with you. If we don't open our minds to allow what is believed to be tested and challenged then our spirituality cannot and will not grow or developed and that's what is stated in Rev 3:14-17 Yashua is pleading that we allow the Holy Spirit to give us eyesalve to be able to see the errors we are holding on to individually as well as collectively.​

Happy Sabbath​

stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Yes there were a couple of minor errors in Smiths book... primarily his belief in who was the king of the north. But that does not nullify the truth contained in it. Just as there have been corrections by sister White to some of her earlier teachings later in her life as she grew in her understanding of what the Spirit was giving her. But these were of minor matters and not fundamental to the teachings of prophesy that were understood in EW time.

There is a group within Adventism who seem to want to turn, on it's head, the teachings and understandings of end time events and prophetic interpretation that was laid out by EW and other pioneers. If you will read carefully the quote you provided, that she gave "there may be found matters of minor importance that call for careful study and correction.", it was to correct the minor matters of the message given, not to reinvent it. Of course there will be more and better light given as we reach the end but it will not contradict the light thats already been given.

Not that these quotes will mean much to you but for the sake of others that will be reading this, here is what sister White had to say about the foundation and platform of our faith.

I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, and would give no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps--one, two and three--the first, second and third angels' messages. Said the angel, Woe to him who shall move a block, or stir a pin in these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance. The destiny of souls hangs upon the manner in which they are received. I was again
169
brought down through these messages, and saw how dearly the people of God had purchased their experience. It had been obtained through much suffering and severe conflict. Step by step had God brought them along, until he had placed them upon a solid, immovable platform. Then I saw individuals as they approached the platform, before stepping upon it examine the foundation. Some with rejoicing immediately stepped upon it. Others commenced to find fault with the laying of the foundation of the platform. They wished improvements made, and then the platform would be more perfect, and the people much happier. Some stepped off the platform and examined it, then found fault with it, declaring it to be laid wrong. I saw that nearly all stood firm upon the platform, and exhorted others who had stepped off to cease their complaints, for God was the master-builder, and they were fighting against him. They recounted the wonderful work of God, which had led them to the firm platform, and in union nearly all raised their eyes to heaven, and with a loud voice glorified God. This affected some of those who had complained, and left the platform, and again they with humble look stepped upon it. {1SG 168.2}

Let none seek to tear away the foundations of our faith,--the foundations that were laid at the beginning of our work, by prayerful study of the Word and by revelation. Upon these foundations we have been building for the last fifty years. Men may suppose that they have found a new way, and that they can lay a stronger foundation than that which has been laid. But this is a great deception. Other foundation can no man lay than that which has been laid. {RH, March 3, 1904 par. 13}

The time has come when we must firmly refuse to be drawn away from the platform of eternal truth, which since 1844 has stood the test. Letter 277, 1904, p. 6.

The Word of the Lord has guided our steps since the passing of the time in 1844. We have searched the Scriptures; we have built solidly; and we have not had to tear up our foundations and put in new timbers. Letter 24, 1907, p. 3. (To Elder A. G. Daniells, February 4, 1907.)

The great waymarks of truth, showing us our bearing in prophetic history, are to be carefully guarded, lest they be torn down and replaced with theories that would bring confusion rather than genuine light. {Ms 31, 1896}

 

[stinsonmarri]

ECR:​

You stated:​

Yes there were a couple of minor errors in Smiths book... primarily his belief in who was the king of the north. But that does not nullify the truth contained in it. Just as there have been corrections by sister White to some of her earlier teachings later in her life as she grew in her understanding of what the Spirit was giving her. But these were of minor matters and not fundamental to the teachings of prophesy that were understood in EW time.


Here is where we differ and that is in the so call minor errors concerning the king of the north. I accept some of the historical points of fact from Elder Smith book because it helped me to research his facts that were according to the Bible. However when they differ I took the Bible. If EGW warn us about scholars who did change even the Bible based on words than everything must be checked out that is each individual right! Everything is fundamental to the teachings of Elohim's word. You have this notion as did the rabbis during the time of the Messiah that what they say is above Elohim's word. That they are the sole guardian and if one questions certain points they are going against the grain. Even the Bible says prove and search the Scriptures but not what the leaders said is right oh no!


There is a group within Adventism who seem to want to turn, on it's head, the teachings and understandings of end time events and prophetic interpretation that was laid out by EW and other pioneers. If you will read carefully the quote you provided, that she gave "there may be found matters of minor importance that call for careful study and correction.", it was to correct the minor matters of the message given, not to reinvent it. Of course there will be more and better light given as we reach the end but it will not contradict the light thats already been given. ​

Not that these quotes will mean much to you but for the sake of others that will be reading this, here is what sister White had to say about the foundation and platform of our faith.

If those events do not make sense and they don't because they are interpreted and not understood that's the difference. The Bible has no private interpretation but those who choose to realize that is why there are so many different churches. I am not leaving this church because I know that those who will stand on a firm platform will not be shaking off. I will continue to speak against those things that are not what the Bible says and you will see that truth will come out. Persecution will start in the church just like it did all throughout history.​

Yes I provided what she said about the minor importance but she also said it was not inspired and she also stated this:

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.Review and Herald, December 20, 1892​

Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with Elohim’s word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices. YAHWEH often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. Elohim desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth.​

The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of Elohim; they were erring mortals like ourselves. Elohim has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. TM 105, 106​

What group of Adventist is trying to turn what on its head? Because I state clearly that's not what the Bible said I'm in some group of Adventist trying to turn something on its head? Because I can read and understand for myself that I cannot stand up speak and say this is a mistake? The Holy Spirit cannot speak to me as one minister told me that He only channel through them and not the laity. How sad but yet I have asked you on many occasions to show me Scripture and you have not!​

Remember what you said and what I provided:​

I guess in the not to distant future we will start to see the Truth unfolding.... I'm not trying to be 'right' in my understanding, it is truly what my studies have lead me to, based on the Bible, historical account and pioneer wisdom given through the Holy Spirit. ​

The truth is unfolding now as we speak or discuss and where we differ is very simple if you will show in the Bible where it provides the Sunday Blue laws. I have shown you over and over Biblically that:​

• The harlot rides the "scarlet" coloured beast/man
• The beast/man "that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition,"
• lamb like beast is the false prophet "saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast"/man,
• ten men will become "ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast"/man,
• These ten new kings "shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire,"
• Armageddon comes under the six vial and "is the battle of Elohim Almighty,"
• The beast/man and the ten new kings "will make war with the Lamb" after he first "shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,"
• The beast/man "and the kings of the earth," with "their armies" will "gathered together to make war against," Yashua and His angels (not the battle of Elohim Almighty),
• The beast/man and the false prophet "both" will be "cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone,"
• "And the remnant" "all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

All of the above are quoted from the Scriptures but totally against Uriah Smith view and yes even EGW's. It makes common sense for this as well:​

This all relates to Dan Chapter 7, 11:27-45 and Chapter 12 and I truly love you and I am praying that your eyes become open to see and understand and not through any interpretation. Rev 3:14-17

Blessing,​

stinsonmarri
​

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

We are at a stalemate... you believe as you will and I will do the same.

 

[stinsonmarri]

We are at a stalemate... you believe as you will and I will do the same.

EastCoastRemnant:
Is that because you cannot give me Scriptures on the questions I have ask for? It is a stalemate because you cannot respond to what EGW finally stated which is more than the minor mistakes Uriah Smith made. What is the stalemate because you stated in another thread about your disapointment in others whom you feel refuse to see truth you provide in studies with them and you felt disappointed. The same refusal to see what I have provided to you. But you group me as some type of Adventist to turn things around I have never labeled you. You have made many accusations against me but you never provide proof from the word of Elohim! Now its a stalemate because you have nothing to stand on but what the leaders have said and not the Bible? No Sunday blue law is in the Bible, the beast was seen giving over to the burning in flame in Daniel as well as in Revelation, Yashua is seen taking the book of life in both books and all Yahweh's people are sealed, the four horses are the earth through periods of time, the 144,000 is plainly given in the Bible and shown to EGW with their names written in the Temple on golden plates. Gentile and the harlot is the same person, Armageddon is Yahweh's war and not the Lamb and it is done during the six trumpet under the six vial. The Savior has not return until hail, and the seventh trumpet is blown. Prophetic time is still giving in Daniel Chapter 12 and even Doug Batchelor stated this chapter needs more investigation! Revelation and Daniel is the same book one more detailed than the other and if you dear brother put away all the books and fall on your knees and ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the Bible He will. I understand what a stalemate is when it come to truth and facts. But you want some type of stalemate but I'm still here praying for you and I hope you do the same for me that we both make it into the kingdom. I will be out here defend truth, justice with facts and not stalemates of any kind because it is close to the Time of Trouble and I must cry out loud. I am a messenge as you said crying out in the wilderness to whomever will hear that we must study and get ready and not give over to any stalemate.

Love and Blessings,
stinsonmarri