Hindu's Karma v. Grace

[elijah115]

if you get what you deserve (karma) doesn't the existence of grace negate the laws of karma? What exactly do Hindus believe?

reference to this post:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=23615349&postcount=42

also when was the Svetasvatara Upanishad written, and by whom?

 

[SelfRealization]

Namaste elijah,

Karma = cause and effect. It is neither good nor bad. It is simply a law of nature. What goes up must come down. Every action must have a reaction. Thus, all our actions (good or bad) have re-actions in the subtle world and the physical world. And we experience these re-actions either in this life, or in future lives and in our experiences in the afterlife realms.

Karma can, however, be erased. For example, transcendental knowledge erases karma.

“As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes.. so does the Fire of Knowledge (Jnana-Agni) burn to ashes all reactions (karma) to material activities.”
- Bhagavad Gita 4:37

Grace which liberates one from material bondage is available to all genuine spiritual seekers, no matter what they have done. Karma and grace are not in conflict. Grace can eliminate stored Karma (both good and bad).

By surrendering to God within and withdrawing the senses from this material world and realizing our Pre-existent Soul-Self, we experience transcendental grace which liberates us from the bonds of material existence...

Even if one is the most sinful of all sinners, one shall yet cross over the ocean of sin by the raft of Self-knowledge..
Bhagavad Gita 4.36

One who does all work as an offering to God — abandoning selfish attachment to results — remains untouched by Karmic reaction or sin as a lotus leaf never gets wet by water.
- Bhagavad Gita 5:10

Ignorance of our true Self and our relationship with the Supreme, and attachment to material desires, keeps us bound to the lower worlds. And thus our karma propels us from one life to the next, as we go around on the Wheel of Samsara, wandering thru various incarnations in the material and astral worlds of creation..

So, we must seek liberation (moksha)! and this is done thru the practice of various Yogas. There is Bhakti Yoga (Devotion to God); Karma-Yoga (Self-less Service); Raja Yoga (meditation/controlling the mind); Jnana-Yoga (Transcendental Knowledge); and the popular Hatha Yoga (physical postures and breath-control).. Depending on a person's inclinations, certain yogas are more recommended for them. And these Yogic practices lead to the experience of liberating grace. Karma is eliminated thru Yoga! Grace is experienced thru Yoga!

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

if you get what you deserve (karma) doesn't the existence of grace negate the laws of karma?

There are three ways to attain moksha, so to speak, as if moksha was not there in the first place, in Hinduism.

1. Karma Yoga - Action without worrying about their fruits. Example: a soldier at the frontline fights and kills without worrying whether he will go to hell for that.

2. Bhakti Yoga- Surrendering oneself unto the Lord, lock, stock, and barrel. Eat, sleep, and breathe God, so to speak.

3. Jnana Yoga - The path of knowledge, the path of discrimination of what is real and unreal. Very difficult to follow.

If either of the three yogas are followed right, one can escape the web of cause and effect, so to speak.

One can escape the law of karma through the grace of God. It is not just accepting God but to live one's life pleasing to God.

Hinduism talks in the vyavaharika(empirical), and the paramarthika(absolute) sense.

All these yogas, and the striving for liberation exist in the empirical sense.

In the absolute sense, 'cause and effect' is not there, no one strives for liberation. There is no bondage, so where does liberation arise.

What exactly do Hindus believe?

I would also like to know

also when was the Svetasvatara Upanishad written, and by whom?

According to tradition all the Upanishads were transmitted orally and at the end of the last Dvapara Yuga(3102 B.C.) written down by sage Vyasa.
More information can be had from wikipedia, the most neutral website that I could recommend.

 

[Skillganon]

Same here!

 

[elijah115]

There are three ways to attain moksha, so to speak, as if moksha was not there in the first place, in Hinduism.

1. Karma Yoga - Action without worrying about their fruits. Example: a soldier at the frontline fights and kills without worrying whether he will go to hell for that.

2. Bhakti Yoga- Surrendering oneself unto the Lord, lock, stock, and barrel. Eat, sleep, and breathe God, so to speak.

3. Jnana Yoga - The path of knowledge, the path of discrimination of what is real and unreal. Very difficult to follow.

If either of the three yogas are followed right, one can escape the web of cause and effect, so to speak.

One can escape the law of karma through the grace of God. It is not just accepting God but to live one's life pleasing to God.

Hinduism talks in the vyavaharika(empirical), and the paramarthika(absolute) sense.

All these yogas, and the striving for liberation exist in the empirical sense.

In the absolute sense, 'cause and effect' is not there, no one strives for liberation. There is no bondage, so where does liberation arise.



I would also like to know



According to tradition all the Upanishads were transmitted orally and at the end of the last Dvapara Yuga(3102 B.C.) written down by sage Vyasa.
More information can be had from wikipedia, the most neutral website that I could recommend.

ok, according to whose tradition? which of the six schools? Orally in what language? What marked the end of the Dvapara age? Who was sage Vyasa? Where was he born? Where did you get the information for the last paragraph? The RigVeda is said to have been written around 1500 B.C. by Hindus, how can the oldest book of the Vedas be written after the Upanishads?

 

[elijah115]

Namaste elijah,

Karma = cause and effect. It is neither good nor bad. It is simply a law of nature. What goes up must come down. Every action must have a reaction. Thus, all our actions (good or bad) have re-actions in the subtle world and the physical world. And we experience these re-actions either in this life, or in future lives and in our experiences in the afterlife realms.

Karma can, however, be erased. For example, transcendental knowledge erases karma.

“As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes.. so does the Fire of Knowledge (Jnana-Agni) burn to ashes all reactions (karma) to material activities.”
- Bhagavad Gita 4:37

Grace which liberates one from material bondage is available to all genuine spiritual seekers, no matter what they have done. Karma and grace are not in conflict. Grace can eliminate stored Karma (both good and bad).

By surrendering to God within and withdrawing the senses from this material world and realizing our Pre-existent Soul-Self, we experience transcendental grace which liberates us from the bonds of material existence...

Even if one is the most sinful of all sinners, one shall yet cross over the ocean of sin by the raft of Self-knowledge..
Bhagavad Gita 4.36

One who does all work as an offering to God — abandoning selfish attachment to results — remains untouched by Karmic reaction or sin as a lotus leaf never gets wet by water.
- Bhagavad Gita 5:10

Ignorance of our true Self and our relationship with the Supreme, and attachment to material desires, keeps us bound to the lower worlds. And thus our karma propels us from one life to the next, as we go around on the Wheel of Samsara, wandering thru various incarnations in the material and astral worlds of creation..

So, we must seek liberation (moksha)! and this is done thru the practice of various Yogas. There is Bhakti Yoga (Devotion to God); Karma-Yoga (Self-less Service); Raja Yoga (meditation/controlling the mind); Jnana-Yoga (Transcendental Knowledge); and the popular Hatha Yoga (physical postures and breath-control).. Depending on a person's inclinations, certain yogas are more recommended for them. And these Yogic practices lead to the experience of liberating grace. Karma is eliminated thru Yoga! Grace is experienced thru Yoga!

ok, what do the Vedas say?

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

ok, according to whose tradition?

According to the traditions of Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism).

which of the six schools?

The school of Vedanta.

Orally in what language?

Sanskrit.

What marked the end of the Dvapara age?

The end of Lord Krishna's bodily lifespan on earth.

Who was sage Vyasa? Where was he born?

He is considered to be an ideal Brahmarishi- omniscient, truthful, purest of the pure and possessor of knowledge of the essence of Brahman.

He was born on an island(Sanskrit Dweepa) in the River Yamuna.

Where did you get the information for the last paragraph?

Wikipedia.

The RigVeda is said to have been written around 1500 B.C. by Hindus, how can the oldest book of the Vedas be written after the Upanishads?

The historical date that has been put for the Rig Veda is 1500 B.C. and in that sense, the Upanishads were said to have been written in 900 B.C. and afterwards.

Hindu tradition has never accepted this historical date since they believe that the Vedas and the Upanishads are revealed scriptures and have been transmitted through oral tradition since time immemorial.

 

[SelfRealization]

ok, what do the Vedas say?

Hi Elijah,
I am not exactly sure what you are asking? If you are interested in learning more about the Vedic spiritual teachings I recommend reading the Upanishads, and also the Bhagavad Gita. There are translations of the Bhagavad Gita as well as some of the Upanishads online. The Upanishads are considered the revealed commentaries on the Vedas.

 

[elijah115]

Isn't it logical to read a text before or as well as its commentaries? I asked the question, "what do the Vedas say with regards to the relationship between karma and grace?" Edit - Have read the Vedas?

 

[elijah115]

According to the traditions of Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism).



The school of Vedanta.

That doesn't exist. I checked.

The end of Lord Krishna's bodily lifespan on earth.

Is Krishna mentioned in the Vedas? How did they work out the end of Krishna's lifespan? Is it written in the Vedas?

The historical date that has been put for the Rig Veda is 1500 B.C. and in that sense, the Upanishads were said to have been written in 900 B.C. and afterwards.

Hindu tradition has never accepted this historical date since they believe that the Vedas and the Upanishads are revealed scriptures and have been transmitted through oral tradition since time immemorial.

So which is right. 900 BC or 3100 BC?

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

That doesn't exist. I checked.

I don't understand what you're talking about.

Is Krishna mentioned in the Vedas? How did they work out the end of Krishna's lifespan? Is it written in the Vedas?

What if Krishna is not mentioned in the Vedas? Does it matter to you? It seems it doesn't matter to the Hindus.
FYI, Hindus give a rat's *** about historical validity.

So which is right. 900 BC or 3100 BC?

So what if both are wrong? I don't see the Upanishads and the Vedas becoming obsolete in the near future. I can't think of anyone who has disproved the Vedas or Upanishads based on historical evidence. They are in the soul of India.

 

[srev2004]

That doesn't exist. I checked.





Is Krishna mentioned in the Vedas? How did they work out the end of Krishna's lifespan? Is it written in the Vedas?


So which is right. 900 BC or 3100 BC?

Maybe if you checked in your bible, but if you ask any Hindu, the school of Vedanta is the most prevalent, followed by many other sects.

 

[arunma]

FYI, Hindus give a rat's *** about historical validity.

Can I quote you on that? Because some Hindus believe that ancient Indians invented airplanes. Others cling to historical validity whenever they wish to prove that Jesus visited India in order to practice Hindu idolatry.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Can I quote you on that?

Be my guest.

Because some Hindus believe that ancient Indians invented airplanes.

What is the percentage of Hindus who believe ancient Indians invented airplanes?
I still don't know why some are obsessed about airplanes and stuff. I can only hope that they grow out of this airplane stuff and concentrate more on the actual philosophy.

Others cling to historical validity whenever they wish to prove that Jesus visited India in order to practice Hindu idolatry.

I can only pity those who go to any means to make it appear that Jesus visited India. Again majority of Hindus don't give a 'you know what' about whether Jesus visited India or not. You can quote me on that too.

 

[elijah115]

I don't understand what you're talking about.






What if Krishna is not mentioned in the Vedas? Does it matter to you? It seems it doesn't matter to the Hindus.
FYI, Hindus give a rat's *** about historical validity.




So what if both are wrong? I don't see the Upanishads and the Vedas becoming obsolete in the near future. I can't think of anyone who has disproved the Vedas or Upanishads based on historical evidence. They are in the soul of India.

I think I'll stop asking you anything. You seem a bit touchy.

 

[indianx]

Would you like to expound on your statement that the branch of Vedanta doesn't exist?

That's like saying Catholicism doesn't exist.

Edit: didn't want to offend anyone.

 

[srev2004]

Can I quote you on that? Because some Hindus believe that ancient Indians invented airplanes. Others cling to historical validity whenever they wish to prove that Jesus visited India in order to practice Hindu idolatry.

You need to stop with the anti Christian syndrome. We are not against Jesus.

Also you're very Hindu-centric, I don't think this is very healthy, you being a Christian and all.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

I think I'll stop asking you anything. You seem a bit touchy.

Thanks.

 

[arunma]

You need to stop with the anti Christian syndrome. We are not against Jesus.

Also you're very Hindu-centric, I don't think this is very healthy, you being a Christian and all.

I understand your case. The problem is that the Jesus whom you are "not against" bears little resemblance to the true Jesus Christ of history. Hindus reportray Jesus as a Hindu guru who worshiped Hindu idols, who never said that he was the exclusive Savior, and who supposedly travelled to India to learn Hindu secrets. In other words, Hindus make Jesus acceptable to themselves by portraying him as someone whom he is not.

Do you deny this?

 

[Druweid]

So which is right. 900 BC or 3100 BC?

I found this at religioustolerance.com:

The Rig Veda (a.k.a. Rigveda) may be the oldest of the four. Estimates of its date of composition in oral form range from 1500 BCE to 4000 BCE. The Yajur and Atharva Vedas refer to the vernal equinox having occurred in the Pleiades constellation -- an event dating from about 2500 BCE.

Not to prove anything, mind you, but if you want a reference, there it is.

-- Druweid