Hillsong has been given over to the world.

[Oldmantook]

Why would masonic symbolism be considered a negative? Surely it is the meaning behind it rather than who uses it which is important?

E.g. a beehive is a masonic symbol. Yet I buy honey which has a beehive on its jar... does that mean my honey producer is sending me hidden masonic messages? Now apply the logic to hillsong.

If it was a one-time occurrence perhaps no harm no foul, but when Hillsong has a consistent history of associating themselves with such occultic symbolism then it is likely no accident is it?

 

[NIChristian]

Just as long as we understand each other. Can we get on with the thread? I'm still searching for something...I'll keep my insults to myself. Cheers mate.

Tell you what mate, you can have your echo chamber, and insult anyone who dares disagree with you. Enjoy you have hounded a Christian off the forum... superb victory for you!

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Let us focus on th thread.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I watched the PEACE video and I couldn't see anything satanic in it at all. I saw no occult symbols or anything that would suggest demonic influence.

As in other posts I have made concerning the modern trend in worship music tending to be more soulish than spiritual, I saw a lot of that in the video. The comment by the singer that "the presence of God is here among us" tended more toward sensory pleasant feelings as evidence of the presence of God, but I would rather think that the pleasant emotional group dynamics are induced by the emotional nature of the music. This is very similar to New Age, and brings me to suspect that Hillsong music, if this is an example of its type of music, is actually influenced by New Age ideas that concentrate on self - the way I feel about God, rather than worship to God for what He has done for us.

This type of music with its repetitious phrasing and lyrics and emotional style along with people standing with their hands up and eyes closed, swaying to the music, can induce a state of semi-conscious meditation similar to transcendental meditation where the person goes into an altered spiritual state.

The same altered state can be induced by a combination of repetitious chanting type of music with repeated phrases and mind altering drugs to induce a type of pleasant semi consciousness where the conscious mind no longer is in contact with reality.

 

[Romans 8]

The difficulty with things such as symbolism is it's not a matter of just posting a 5 minute video on YouTube and everyone gets it. It entails a lot more study to understand it, if one has not previously read and researched these things. But, as Christians it should not be a hard pill to swallow.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Sure, but we've all seen this movie. Someone posts a video, and the peanut gallery attacks. Given that one can easily find the search engine "google", there's not much excuse.

I'm familiar with the theories that a celebrity covering one eye in a publicity photo is a clue as to his bizarre affiliations.

Unfortunately, I am in no position to confirm that.

So is there evidence of some kind that proves what their intent in doing that is? Is there a confession from one of them? Are there uncovered documents which outline what the program is? And since we're at it, is there a reason why they would make such a public effort to hint at their affiliations?

I'm simply asking for evidence of some kind. But a trend is not evidence by itself. I'm willing to consider the possibility that maybe all these celebrities do have some kind of devious association. That would explain a lot, actually. I'm not cynical; only skeptical.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I watched the PEACE video and I couldn't see anything satanic in it at all. I saw no occult symbols or anything that would suggest demonic influence.

As in other posts I have made concerning the modern trend in worship music tending to be more soulish than spiritual, I saw a lot of that in the video. The comment by the singer that "the presence of God is here among us" tended more toward sensory pleasant feelings as evidence of the presence of God, but I would rather think that the pleasant emotional group dynamics are induced by the emotional nature of the music. This is very similar to New Age, and brings me to suspect that Hillsong music, if this is an example of its type of music, is actually influenced by New Age ideas that concentrate on self - the way I feel about God, rather than worship to God for what He has done for us.

This type of music with its repetitious phrasing and lyrics and emotional style along with people standing with their hands up and eyes closed, swaying to the music, can induce a state of semi-conscious meditation similar to transcendental meditation where the person goes into an altered spiritual state.

The same altered state can be induced by a combination of repetitious chanting type of music with repeated phrases and mind altering drugs to induce a type of pleasant semi consciousness where the conscious mind no longer is in contact with reality.

I would tend to agree with this. When taken to churches where this a "thing", my response is generally to form a "prayer cocoon" around myself, and just bow my head, and hang out in there 'till it's over. My husband has not done this, and has returned from these worship services agitated, nervous, and kind of unwell.

 

[Romans 8]

So is there evidence of some kind that proves what their intent in doing that is? Is there a confession from one of them? Are there uncovered documents which outline what the program is?

Not likely. This is kind of the point of symbolism is it's a wink to those in the club.

And since we're at it, is there a reason why they would make such a public effort to hint at their affiliations?

I don't know. People speculate. Secular trending videos are littered with occult symbolism. I've spent time researching it, to me it's clear as day. Is occult symbolism demonstrated by hillsong? Yes, I have seen a couple videos fairly well done exposing this. But again, you're not going to get anything concrete aside from interpretations of the videos etc and what it means.

 

[Loyce KG]

Watch their videos.

If you lay an accusation, please give us the evidence. Google is full of biased links. Can you do a personal analysis led by the Spirit of God and let us know. I have some of their videos and didn't notice the Masonic signs mentioned. Elaborate?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would tend to agree with this. When taken to churches where this a "thing", my response is generally to form a "prayer cocoon" around myself, and just bow my head, and hang out in there 'till it's over. My husband has not done this, and has returned from these worship services agitated, nervous, and kind of unwell.

That's interesting. I accepted Christ in an AOG church in 1966. They sang choruses and hymns in a way that was exciting and worshipful. They sang with all their hearts, with their eyes open, taking their lead from the song leader conducting them. All they had was a piano and organ as accompaniment. The emotional response was joy and laughter, and the word of God came forth through tongues messages, interpretations and prophecies. Then the preaching was Bible-based and faith-building, and seven to ten people would go forward to receive Christ at the altar call.

There was none of this extended hands up, eyes closed, emotional repetitive music that we see in many Charismatic meetings today. These people knew that they were the atmosphere because of the indwelling Holy Spirit and therefore they didn't have to hype up anything to just enjoy being at church.

But there has been a gradual shift over the 50 years I have been in the faith, to extended "worship" to try and generate a worshipful atmosphere. In 1969, I went to an off-beat Pentecostal group in my home town, and they spent more than 30 minutes doing that kind of worship, and I found it deadly boring! I never went back. In fact, I have found the 20 minute, perfunctory "worship time" in the churches I have been at, boring, and to me, a waste of time. But when God has moved, people saved, healed, and ministered to in the Spirit, then the worship after that has been spontaneous, not induced by anyone up the front, and very meaningful, because they were rejoicing over what God has done, rather than trying to work up something to get God to move.

Actually, I have enjoyed the worship more in the Presbyterian church I have been involved with for the last 18 years with their traditional three hymns and a sermon. Paul said that it is better to do and say things that build up the people. I don't see that this "New Age" type of Hillsong type of music actually builds up people in their faith toward God in the way that Paul taught. In fact, the Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and it is the Holy Spirit preaching of the Word that achieves that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you lay an accusation, please give us the evidence. Google is full of biased links. Can you do a personal analysis led by the Spirit of God and let us know. I have some of their videos and didn't notice the Masonic signs mentioned. Elaborate?

I have observed that Pentecostal and Charismatic churches that have adopted the Hillsong type of music and worship have had a marked decrease in the inspirational gifts of the Spirit (tongues, interpretation, prophecy) in the services. Also, I have noticed that there has been a decline in the revelatory gifts as well (word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits).

This is significant to me. It shows me that when worship is introspective ("bless me"), the emphasis is placed on self, and not to edifying others in the meeting. When people have that attitude, they don't see the need to exercise the gifts of the Spirit in meetings, because they are too involved in getting pleasurable, "spiritual" feelings for themselves.

 

[Romans 8]

I have observed that Pentecostal and Charismatic churches that have adopted the Hillsong type of music and worship have had a marked decrease in the inspirational gifts of the Spirit (tongues, interpretation, prophecy) in the services. Also, I have noticed that there has been a decline in the revelatory gifts as well (word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits).

This is significant to me. It shows me that when worship is introspective ("bless me"), the emphasis is placed on self, and not to edifying others in the meeting. When people have that attitude, they don't see the need to exercise the gifts of the Spirit in meetings, because they are too involved in getting pleasurable, "spiritual" feelings for themselves.

Thank you for sharing, this totally makes sense.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Furthermore, in terms of the decline of the inspirational gifts in services, I am come to the opinion that because worship times have been strictly programmed by the song leader and musicians, the opportunity for anyone in the meeting to give a tongues message, interpretation or prophecy is taken away. This is the stranglehold that worship leaders have in Hillsong type services. So it is no surprise that the Spirit is quenched when the programme in man-planned and man-operated, giving no opportunity for the Holy Spirit to have His say through the inspirational gifts.

Also, during altar calls with loud music and worship leaders yelling through microphones, the opportunity for the ministry team to use the gifts of the word of knowledge or word of wisdom is drowned out by the loudness, making it impossible for anyone to hear anything at the front of the church.

So, if the Holy Spirit moves mainly through the gifts to achieve His purpose in the lives of believers, and He is blocked and quenched from doing His ministry, then take a guess who or what is behind the quenching and the blocking!

 

[Romans 8]

Furthermore, in terms of the decline of the inspirational gifts in services, I am come to the opinion that because worship times have been strictly programmed by the song leader and musicians, the opportunity for anyone in the meeting to give a tongues message, interpretation or prophecy is taken away. This is the stranglehold that worship leaders have in Hillsong type services. So it is no surprise that the Spirit is quenched when the programme in man-planned and man-operated, giving no opportunity for the Holy Spirit to have His say through the inspirational gifts.

Also, during altar calls with loud music and worship leaders yelling through microphones, the opportunity for the ministry team to use the gifts of the word of knowledge or word of wisdom is drowned out by the loudness, making it impossible for anyone to hear anything at the front of the church.

So, if the Holy Spirit moves mainly through the gifts to achieve His purpose in the lives of believers, and He is blocked and quenched from doing His ministry, then take a guess who or what is behind the quenching and the blocking!

That's really unfortunate. It's His church. It sounds like you've been a part of some really great churches. I hope to experience the Holy Spirit working through the church as you describe. I've yet to experience the gifts of the Holy Spirit working through the church.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thank you for sharing, this totally makes sense.

I think I'm on a roll here!
I wonder if in Hillsong type church meetings, the preaching seems to be more of the enticing words of man's wisdom than the powerful preaching of the gospel that exposes and convicts people of sin and causes them to cry out to God for grace and mercy? It seems that there is a trend away from conviction of sin type preaching which makes the gospel of Christ good news to convicted sinners, to preaching that makes people feel good whatever their condition is. Would this not make secret sinners feel safe because their pet sins are not exposed and challenged through the powerful preaching of the Word?

Could this be linked to the rise of heart sins, like gossiping, jealousy, envy, controlling attitudes, judgmentalism, party spirit, pride of grace or of denomination, that exists in many churches that subscribe to Hillsong type tree-hugging, touchy, feely music?

Just a question for thinking people...

 

[anna ~ grace]

I think I'm on a roll here!
I wonder if in Hillsong type church meetings, the preaching seems to be more of the enticing words of man's wisdom than the powerful preaching of the gospel that exposes and convicts people of sin and causes them to cry out to God for grace and mercy? It seems that there is a trend away from conviction of sin type preaching which makes the gospel of Christ good news to convicted sinners, to preaching that makes people feel good whatever their condition is. Would this not make secret sinners feel safe because their pet sins are not exposed and challenged through the powerful preaching of the Word?

Could this be linked to the rise of heart sins, like gossiping, jealousy, envy, controlling attitudes, judgmentalism, party spirit, pride of grace or of denomination, that exists in many churches that subscribe to Hillsong type tree-hugging, touchy, feely music?

Just a question for thinking people...

Yes, I think this could be part of the problem. There is much emphasis on feelings and enjoyment, little is said of sin, except that it is irrelevant. That is very sad. I have also noticed that the worship leaders wield a *lot* of power. A lot. To the point of trying to control all actions, responses, and body motions of all congregation members. And giving filthy looks or trying to call you out if you don't comply.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's really unfortunate. It's His church. It sounds like you've been a part of some really great churches. I hope to experience the Holy Spirit working through the church as you describe. I've yet to experience the gifts of the Holy Spirit working through the church.

I was fortunate to be converted in a church that had a praying leadership. Also, I spent some years in another church with a praying pastor who taught me most of what I know about the ministry of the Spirit. I was in a weekend convention when on the Saturday night, after spending the day in prayer, he called out, "Let the word of God come forth!" Immediately there were tongues messages, interpretations and prophecies all over the place, and then the glory of God came down and there was much weeping and calling upon God. Even the Sunday morning service, people got up to testify what God had done for them the night before and they wept while telling their story. The glory of God was still on them! That pastor believed that some soft music and singing a few choruses as people came into the service and sat down was the way of having a quiet, relaxed environment for the Spirit to move.

He told me of a time when a visiting preacher got up to preach, and then broke into laughter and could not preach, so he had to sit down and the glory of God swept through the meeting and did everything needed with the people without any message preached. The visiting preacher was asked why that happened to him and he said that the Holy Spirit told him to sit down and to let Him move!

When one has experienced that intensity of the glory of God in a meeting, it spoils one for everything else. Hillsong type worship, and feel-good type preaching does not in any approach the real thing!

 

[Romans 8]

I wonder if in Hillsong type church meetings, the preaching seems to be more of the enticing words of man's wisdom

Hillsong are affiliated with Bethel Church and NAR. I don't think the music belongs in the church. It's secular at best.

It seems that there is a trend away from conviction of sin type preaching which makes the gospel of Christ good news to convicted sinners, to preaching that makes people feel good whatever their condition is. Would this not make secret sinners feel safe because their pet sins are not exposed and challenged through the powerful preaching of the Word?

It's a good point, it's difficult to be set free if the devil is hiding behind their non repentance.

Could this be linked to the rise of heart sins, like gossiping, jealousy, envy, controlling attitudes, judgmentalism, party spirit, pride of grace or of denomination, that exists in many churches that subscribe to Hillsong type tree-hugging, touchy, feely music?

Just a question for thinking people...

The fruit of the flesh. Yes, I would say so. I'm going to save this post and read it out to my pastor if this ever become an issue at my church. I might just read it out at a Bible meeting as a means of "preventative maintenance". You are on a roll

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, I think this could be part of the problem. There is much emphasis on feelings and enjoyment, little is said of sin, except that it is irrelevant. That is very sad. I have also noticed that the worship leaders wield a *lot* of power. A lot. To the point of trying to control all actions, responses, and body motions of all congregation members. And giving filthy looks or trying to call you out if you don't comply.

The problem is that many church leaderships do not see the importance of extended prayer to prepare meetings for the moving of the Spirit of God. When leaders give themselves to hours of prayer and seeking God for Holy Spirit power to come into their services, we see the gifts of the Spirit being manifested, people on their knees weeping before God, souls being saved and healed, and others being freed from demons. The closest I came to it while watching Youtube were the videos of the Brownsville Revivial. I saw people weeping before God, kneeling before God, collapsing under the power of the Holy Spirit, the whole front of the church filled with souls turning to Christ. I never saw the dog-like barking or anything like that, although there have been reports of it. I tend to believe that it was demon manifestation as they were exposed and cast out. Derek Prince in his deliverance ministry encouraged people to cough demons out when they manifested. Perhaps that was what people heard in the Brownsville meetings. I saw people trembling under the power of God and it didn't seem to be put on in any way. Often when the glory of God is present, people tend to respond and react in unusual ways. But no leader was orchestrating it. The glory was coming from above, and not from the front. I just said these things as an example of what I witnessed in the meetings with the pastor who mentored me in the things of the Spirit.

It is significant that the pastor's defining work was J.C. Ryle's Holiness. He had a Methodist Holiness background, and was very strict on personal holiness, knowledge of the Word, and a foundation of personal prayer. One couldn't get away with even the smallest sin in his church. I once was invited to have dinner with a couple who went to a Oneness "Jesus Only" church, and the pastor told me in no uncertain terms that if I went and fellowshipped with those people, I would have to leave his church! That was how strict he was about purity of faith and doctrine. I respected him and stayed with his church.

But when I got married at the age of 25, I changed to my wife's church which was a more standard Charismatic church. It seemed to be okay for the first two or three years, but it got invaded by the Discipleship/Shepherding movement and the "covering" doctrine. Then I started to witness envy, jealousy, disunity in the eldership, pushing out of elders who dissented from the self-appointed "senior" elder's views, and gossiping. It was known that getting counselling from some elders was unreliable, because it was being gossiped around the church by the elder's wives! I ended up leaving that church in 1978, and have never associated with a Charismatic church since, but have been involved in a prophetic ministry with a leader (the son-in-law of my old pastor) whom I trusted.

I think that the Charismatic church that had the problems was not soaked in prayer and the seeking of God for His will. The problem arose when a dominant elder pushed his own will onto the church and this caused disunity and eventual division.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hillsong are affiliated with Bethel Church and NAR. I don't think the music belongs in the church. It's secular at best.



It's a good point, it's difficult to be set free if the devil is hiding behind their non repentance.



The fruit of the flesh. Yes, I would say so. I'm going to save this post and read it out to my pastor if this ever become an issue at my church. I might just read it out at a Bible meeting as a means of "preventative maintenance". You are on a roll

Good grief, I might become notorious!