Highly controversial

[lovingboy]

The other side of the argument would be to say, if what I did was in fact immoral, then why do most Christians find making out as being acceptable if not because it is a sign of affection towards your partner?
Considering that lust is not involved in either of those actions.
I should also note that I do understand that the actions are in fact different in the sense of what the action is and that to most people the hand would be considered as more of a sexual act than just making out, but what most people think is not a sufficiently strong argument to make any argument right or wrong.

 

[lovingboy]

The placing of the hand did not even really get to any part of pubic hair in this situation. As far as masturbation goes, that is another one of those subjects where there seems to be a big gray area. As I understand it, masturbation by itself is not wrongful, but lust and pornography is what is actually not Bible approved. The other part that to most Christians might make masturbation an immoral act is that it is a selfish act, but in the case of mutual masturbation, where true love is involved, it would not (in my oppinion) be a selfish act.

 

[Briseis]

So I guess you are saying that the Bible doesnt specifically say masturbation is, I couldnt remember.

As for the fact that you didnt actually do anything yet, I remembered the fact that your gf stopped it, but I was just saying that if she hadnt it would have been wrong (or not now that you pointed out that the Bible isnt specific). Since you did not reach, then there is no issue. This whole time I was evaluating the intended action, not what you actually did. There is nothing wrong, IMO, with putting your hand a few inches in and touching nothing but skin.

 

[Briseis]

I think by now you have your answer. It is really between you, God, and your gf.

 

[Briseis]

The other part that to most Christians might make masturbation an immoral act is that it is a selfish act, but in the case of mutual masturbation, where true love is involved, it would not (in my oppinion) be a selfish act.

It is not masturbation if it is another person, I think. I have never seen anyone use the word in this way before. But I think that it is impossible for masturbation (of self) to not be selfish.

 

[ByLoveAndGrace]

No, I have not seen any verses saying masturbation is bad... but there are a few saying that gray areas are to be avoided, and anything that is not beneficial for you also to be avoided.... Lemme look.

 

[ByLoveAndGrace]

1 Corinthians 6:12,13
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

Here is an example. It may be permissible for you to touch... but is it beneficial?? The topic continues on to talking about prostitution, and then on to your body being a holy temple for the lord, and that any type of sexual sin is wrong, and that you are to honor the Lord with your body. Do you think that what you were doing with your girlfriend was in any way honoring God with your body?? My personal conviction would say no. But, that is for you to decide.

 

[JesusWasn'tWhite]

Mutual masturbation is a sexual act where two or more people stimulate themselves or one another sexually, usually with the hands.

That was taken straight from a wikipedia article about masturbation.
So yes, I would say that masturbation can be done singly, with two people, or multiple people.

If you don't consider masturbation something that happens between two people... what's fingering? Or a hand job?

 

[SarcasmDispenser]

Out of curiosity if you don't feel guilt.. why are you trying to justify it?

Not that I have any problem with what you've done or anything.

 

[Briseis]

Mutual masturbation is a sexual act where two or more people stimulate themselves or one another sexually, usually with the hands.

That was taken straight from a wikipedia article about masturbation.
So yes, I would say that masturbation can be done singly, with two people, or multiple people.

If you don't consider masturbation something that happens between two people... what's fingering? Or a hand job?

I did add that I was unsure, but just had never heard it ever used in this way before. I previously thought that masturbation was only giving yourself pleasure. Fingering was fingering, and a hand-job was a hand-job. But if they are all catergorized as masturbation, I can accept that. I learned something new today.

 

[Briseis]

Out of curiosity if you don't feel guilt.. why are you trying to justify it?

He isnt trying to justify his actions, as he has had to explain to others already. He only wants to understand. If you did not think that something was wrong, but were then told by ppl you trust that it was, would you want to find out for sure? Perhaps not everyone would, but it is an understandable reaction.

 

[Inperfected]

Want a clear description of what happens?

Sex.

For goodness sake, what do you think would happen in the end, you'd be able to stand the temptation? i thought so but heres me, admitting I'm no longer a virgin, and I was someone who'd do all "that" stuff, but never sex.

Want to respect her, and her guilty conscience? Don't do it. If you do, it's just proving how much you care for her.

why do i say it like this, because it's a recent thing in my life, only being dealt with now by seperate and united prayer.

 

[Briseis]

He has no intense on forcing this on his gf.

I really do not want to try and make you feel guilty or anything, but the fact is just because you failed does not mean everyone will. I am sorry that sounds so mean, but it is true. You cannot assume everyone who touches their SO is gonna have sex.

But if you have read this whole thread, you know that I do not agree with what he did, but we are not in the place to tell him it is wrong, it is really only up to him and how he handles the situation, not how you or I would handle the situation.

 

[Inperfected]

That is true.

Sorry my experience tells me otherwise... What I've said you'd also find others on cf saying for the same reasons... and infact, you'd find so many of my christian friends saying the same thing...

maybe i am wrong, but if i'm not, please listen.

And i never said intentionally force. theres a difference.

 

[SarcasmDispenser]

He isnt trying to justify his actions, as he has had to explain to others already. He only wants to understand. If you did not think that something was wrong, but were then told by ppl you trust that it was, would you want to find out for sure? Perhaps not everyone would, but it is an understandable reaction.

Oh please. He is totally and completely trying to justify it. The goal of Biblical morality is not to go as close to the line as possible before crossing it... it's to stay as far away as possible.

And this is coming from a liberal. But if he wants to play with fire... he better prepare to get burned.

 

[Viaken]

Question. If your girlfriend feels guilty about it and feels very strongly that it's wrong, why does it matter whether God expressly forbids it or not? Christ was very clear about loving your neighbor, and that includes respecting their wishes (so long as they don't contradict the word of God), doesn't it?

I don't want to come off as judgemental, argumentative, or anything. I'm just trying to see why it matters.

That said, don't you feel that an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is inherently sexual? If not, how do you define sex? And if you aren't touching down there to induce [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], what's the point? Getting as close as possible without?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand your position. Could you explain a bit better?

 

[BranwenUerchLlyr]

We need to be careful to not only keep the word of the Law, but also keep the spirit of it. What use is there to follow one while breaking the other? The Bible is clear on the issue of sex before marriage, but I don't believe it stops there. We're called to purity, which is more difficult and demanding of a thing than virginity.

We should also be careful of the word lust. Not all pre-marital sexual experiences are marked by lust (a thing that objectifies). Many are emotional and affectionate (such as with a boyfriend or girlfriend) and can be confusing to those involved who look for the guilt that lust brings in determining whether or not something is okay. We need to remember that those things are still sexual and pre-marital, which is against God's plan for purity before marriage.

 

[lovingboy]

For all of those that still somehow think that I am trying to justify my actions, I am not trying to do so, I just want to obtain knowledge. Imagine this as a religion course, as this is a forum and I believe that it serves only to inform and share knowledge/oppinions. Regardless of what you say or don't say, the decision is still mine to make, I am NOT asking anyone to solve my dilema, but to give me some insights based on scriptures, personal oppinion and experience; not to judge me for my actions or beliefs.

Now, if you may take this into consideration and stop trying to believe that I am trying to justify my actions, could we just try to be objective and see if this would or would not be immoral?

I am just curious in knowing if it would or would not be wrong, and from what I have read on these posts so far, there seems to be no clear answer, or even substantial evidence from scriptures to approve or disapprove of such behavior. I am only curious at this point.

 

[lovingboy]

1 Corinthians 6:12,13
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

Here is an example. It may be permissible for you to touch... but is it beneficial?? The topic continues on to talking about prostitution, and then on to your body being a holy temple for the lord, and that any type of sexual sin is wrong, and that you are to honor the Lord with your body. Do you think that what you were doing with your girlfriend was in any way honoring God with your body?? My personal conviction would say no. But, that is for you to decide.

If this were to apply the way that you are currently using it, then anythign that is fun and games should be banned because it is permissible under God's eyes, but it is not beneficial.
Maybe this argument was made to say that you are given free will to do as you please, but that anything which you end up doing not for face value, but that becomes who you are would be wrong (but I will not be mastered by anything.) which would make eating correct as long as you are not eating too much, to the point where eating becomes who you are; or the same way, have fun as long as you are not having too much fun and having fun becomes who you are. Basically do as you please, as long as your actions are not running you mind to where all you cna think about all day is eating, sleeping, making out, etc.

In short: God allows anything, as long as it is not done excessively.

 

[SarcasmDispenser]

How is mutual masturbation not sex?