Highly controversial

[Briseis]

The Bible's standard is purity, not virginity.

Yes, but people will have a different opinion of what purity is. I am sure many ppl would think that what me and my bf do is impure, but we do not feel it is. That does not mean that we are sinning. As much as I do not understand how it is possible, I can accept it. If he truly was innocent in his heart (and God knows the truths of his heart) then there is nothing we can really say was wrong about what he did...as far as I know.

But you guys know my standpoint on this.

 

[Briseis]

What I meant was that this line of reasoning was not convincing him, so I decided to come at it from a different point of view, his gf's, that is all.

 

[lovingboy]

I really can not read my gf's mind to be completly sincere, even tho I do have a good idea of how she feels. I honestly do not feel guilty, but she tells me that I should; I love her and that is the only reason why I am even bothering to ask information and guidance from you, so I would appreaciate it if I would stop getting bashed and judged from things which I have not stated as being true or have even gone as far as trying to clear up; that kind of almost hostile behavior I actually do find as unchristian.

All I am trying to understand is what the scriptures say about my situation, and trying to see the morality/inmorality of the whole situation because if my gf had not pointed out that she felt guilty I would have honestly just went about my merry ways.

In reply to Briseis, in my post I stated that I would honor whichever decision my gf decided to make on this subject, that is something that i have always done and will continue to do regardless if the situation is moral or not.

 

[lovingboy]

So lets not "pretend" anything, lets instead advise based on the truth, even if its the truth as we see it. The OP can make the decision all on his lonesome with or without us, so it should be our priority to bring (whatever we see is) truth to the table. If you want to see this as OK thats all fine and you can advise from that standpoint all you want, but we shouldn't advise others to "pretend that its ok"
~ ~

Thank you Katomi, this is exactly what i am looking for.

 

[Briseis]

In reply to Briseis, in my post I stated that I would honor whichever decision my gf decided to make on this subject, that is something that i have always done and will continue to do regardless if the situation is moral or not.

Wonderful. As for how your gf feels, I think this is an issue of different opinions of "purity", which I was speaking of earlier, not black and white, right or wrong. So if you and your gf have come to an unerstanding now, then all is well.

 

[lovingboy]

Yes, and that we will do regardless of anything else that happens. Of course I would not let something like this kill our two year relationship in just one night. And I doo agree that everyone's definition of purity might be different, because at least to me, there is no difference between what I did and just normal making out. I know that most of you will disagree with me, but I don't think that my viewpoints could be considered unchristian, but I am open to discussion.

 

[lovingboy]

What I have heard from other Christians tho is that they would not go as far as doing somehting like what i did as it is approaching and getting too close to sex, yet they have said that from a personal bias free point of view they do not see it as actions that violate any part of the scriptures.

 

[Briseis]

I honestly do not feel guilty, but she tells me that I should

If your gf thinks you should feel guilty, perhaps you could tell God that you do not know if what you did was wrong, but if it was, to help convict you, so that you may repent. But perhaps not...

I know that most of you will disagree with me, but I don't think that my viewpoints could be considered unchristian, but I am open to discussion.

I am not sure how a discussion would go. There would be absolutely no closure, lots of opinion, and very little fact.

 

[Briseis]

What I have heard from other Christians tho is that they would not go as far as doing somehting like what i did as it is approaching and getting too close to sex, yet they have said that from a personal bias free point of view they do not see it as actions that violate any part of the scriptures.

That is what I have been saying. It crosses my line of purity, but if it does not cross yours, then there is no scripture against it.

 

[lovingboy]

here are a couple of reactions that i have gotten fcrom other fellow Christians
"this is a very difficult issue i must say, i mean, i dont think theirs anything in the bible that disagrees with mutual masturbation between loving partners, so i think the ball is very much in your court with this one im afraid"
"Affection=preparation for marriage, Sex=constitution of marriage, continuing part of marriage"
"t is believed that the physical relationship should be preserved, for it is supposed to be for after marriage and is deemed special, so yeah fondling is not a good start."
"The bible is on your side here, however one thing I would like to see is the rates that stay together comparing those who had sex before marriage and those that didn't."

The fact that other christians' viewpoints seem to differ so much from one to the next is another thing that makes me wonder as to the whole morality aspect of this situation, as it seems to be a bit of a gray area when it comes down to the facts.

 

[Briseis]

The fact that other christians' viewpoints seem to differ so much from one to the next is another thing that makes me wonder as to the whole morality aspect of this situation, as it seems to be a bit of a gray area when it comes down to the facts.

I think it is still only opinion of purity. The only fact is that we should not have sex, so there will be many different opinions when it comes to anything else.

 

[bliz]

lovingboy -

since you feel there is nothing wrong with what you did, I can only assume that you would not mind discussing it with her mother and father. I'm sure that they will find the lack of Bible verses saying "Keep your hands out of other people's pants." very convincing. Let us know how that goes.

 

[JesusWasn'tWhite]

Hold on a minute...
Your girfriend put your hand/led your hand to her pants/in her pants.
She did?
She's the one that jumped away?
Good for her.
She should be asking you for YOUR forgiveness, asking forgiveness for leading you to a place where you shouldn't go.
You both are in this together, and you're not married yet so you're not the sole head of the house, head of the relationship (although preparation for that leadership may be good, if you believe in that sort of thing).
In my relationship, if we ever get to a point where we're in the heat of something and we do something that makes me uncomfortable, I'm gonna stop! And he figures out pretty quick to ask "What's wrong?" and then we talk about it. Sometimes there's guilt, usually not. Sometimes there's apologies.

Do I think what happened was wrong? Yeah.
You should keep your hand out of her pants, and she shouldn't lead you there. It's both of your faults.
Can you get over it? Yeah.
I think you need to sit down with God and ask Him where you were in the wrong. Sometimes, people aren't guilty about something because the Holy Spirit hasn't laid that conviction on their heart. Sometimes, people aren't guilty because they are blocking the Holy Spirit out. You can only decide where you're at with that and be honest with your girlfriend. If you aren't convicted, that's fine. That doesn't mean you can stick your hand in her pants again though. Sit down and talk with your girlfriend about what all y'all want your relationship to look like, physically (within those guidelines of "Christian values" she talked about (whatever that means)) in a God-honoring relationship. It doesn't need to be a "you should feel guilty" conversation, as much as a "ok, we did something wrong, what do we do now?" kind of conversation.

You're right though. It's hard to discern what is the right way to go, when the Bible doesn't explicitly say "Do not kiss your girlfriend for over 3 minutes continuously." and that makes things hard sometimes because you wish it would just lay things out explicitly. That's where prayer, a sensitive heart to the leading of God, and a heart of repentence and obedience comes in.

Best of luck with your relationship.

 

[Briseis]

lovingboy -

since you feel there is nothing wrong with what you did, I can only assume that you would not mind discussing it with her mother and father. I'm sure that they will find the lack of Bible verses saying "Keep your hands out of other people's pants." very convincing. Let us know hiw that goes.

I am not condoning what he did, but I am being as understanding as possible, and I do not think this is a valid point. I dont even feel comfortable talking about kissing my bf with my parents, although I know that they know we do. That does not mean it is a sin to kiss my bf.

But I agree with JesusWasn'tWhite in the fact that you should pray for God's guidance. Even if there is no clear statement, if you feel guilty about it then it is God telling you that you were in the wrong. But you said you do not feel guilty so pray if you have not already, and if you still do not feel convicted, then that is the end of the matter. Although you already said you will not do it again as your gf wishes, but I guess you just wanted some closure on your feelings.

 

[lovingboy]

lovingboy -

since you feel there is nothing wrong with what you did, I can only assume that you would not mind discussing it with her mother and father. I'm sure that they will find the lack of Bible verses saying "Keep your hands out of other people's pants." very convincing. Let us know hiw that goes.

Ok, using this silly argument, even if i were married I would not go and talk to anyone about what I did the night before with my wife; I deem a relationship as being sacred if one is married or is not. Please do not try to make silly guil-trip arguments. But either way, if I felt at all embarrassed i would not have discussed this with my parents (which I have).

 

[Briseis]

if I felt at all embarrassed i would not have discussed this with my parents (which I have).

Wow, you must have an amazing relationship with your parents.

 

[bliz]

Ok, using this silly argument, even if i were married I would not go and talk to anyone about what I did the night before with my wife; I deem a relationship as being sacred if one is married or is not. Please do not try to make silly guil-trip arguments. But either way, if I felt at all embarrassed i would not have discussed this with my parents (which I have).

#1. She's not your wife!

#2. You think this relationship is "sacred" but you chose to discuss details of your physical interaction in a very public forum.

#3. I'm not buying your statement that you have spoken to yoiur parents. You have gone on at some lengths about the responses from many people and only now do you mention that you chatted with M&D about this? No sale.

#4. I said her parents.

#5. I'm not trying to induce guilt. Just curious about the courage of your convictions. I have my answer.

 

[lovingboy]

#1 "even if i were married" If you read that word, you would only know that I know she isn't my wife, so please read carefully.

#2 Yes my relationship is sacred, that would be the reason why i have never gone as far as posting my name or hers anywhere on this forum. And even if this is a public forum, is asking questions like tis not the pourpose of this forum? If i'm wrong, let me know and I will direct my questions elsewhere.

#3 yes i have chatted to both of my parents and they both gave me opposite oppinions on the matter, can u see why this is confusing now? I did not see the point of putting this up in my argument as it does not help one side or the other when it comes down to the facts. If you don't like to trust people, maybe you should evaluate your own Christian values.

#4 I normally do actually talk to her mother about things, but when it comes down to anyhting physical, including kissing, hugging, etc. I do not feel confortable discussing it with them, but only mostly my father and sometimes my mother depending on how difficult it is to evaluate the right path.

 

[lovingboy]

Another thing which I additionally want to do is talk to a couple of pastors about this dilema. Please just remember that I am trying to find the truth and not trying to justify my hand being where it was. I am not saying that I will repeat my actions, but I believe this is useful information to know even just as reference and to grow my knowledge of my relationship with God.

 

[Briseis]

I hope you know that I have been supportive, and that I am not trying to prove you wrong, only trying to find the truth, whether that be in your favour or not. But I thought of something else that I would like to share.

I may be wrong, so correct me if you know better, but doesnt the Bible condemn masturbation? It is wrong to give yourself sexual pleasure. Wouldnt it be still wrong to get someone else to do it?