Highly controversial

[lovingboy]

Last night I had a discussion with my gf and I need some advice. As background, my girlfriend comes from a Baptist background and I come from a Catholic background; we have been going out for about 2 years and are both quite serious/mature about our relationship. We both do not believe in sex before marriage and we plan on keeping things that way.

During these two years, the farthest we have ever gone was just kissing and tonight we both got a bit steamed up and started making out more intensely than usual. The issue came about when she started directing my hand underneath her jeans (both fully clothed) and as soon as it was about to touch her...she immediately stopped and the discussion started.

She said that what we were doing/about to do was outside of Christian values, and I pointed out that there was a point at which that would be true, which would be having sex or just making out with random people. I believe that what I was doing was a display of affection; but I told her that I would completely respect whatever decision she decided to make on the matter.

The question is, do any of you know what the actual views of Christian values are concerning this matter? Any advice would be highly appreciated as well.


Thanks for helping out.

 

[Briseis]

The issue came about when she started directing my hand underneath her jeans (both fully clothed) and as soon as it was about to touch her...she immediately stopped and the discussion started.

What exactly do you mean by this? I am unclear at exactly what happened.

I am personally ok with a lot compared to most ppl here. Outside of marriage I do not think that ppl should have sex, oral sex, touch under clothes in certain areas that any smart person can figure out, or hump (I feel so weird talking about this, I must admit). But besides that, if you do not feel that it is wrong then I do not think that it is. As long as you are not falling into sin because of doing things, then of course you would need to back up the line a bit. But there is no clear line for this kind of thing, but this is what I figured out.

 

[lovingboy]

To clear up the note, what was about to happen was mutual masturbation. i honestly do feel a bit acward myself talking about issues like this, even tho I have noticed that i am a bit more open about it than my gf is, so if any women out there could give me some tips on how to properly talk to her about something like this so that it could make her more confortable, that would also be great to know.

 

[Briseis]

To clear up the note, what was about to happen was mutual masturbation.

If it was your hand in her pants then thats not really masturbation, but I think I get the picture anyways. I think that is very wrong, but forgivable of course. But the fact is that she instigated it, so she is struggling as well. So you can be conforted by the fact that your gf likely does not blame you.

But I cannot help you with how to talk to her about it, sorry. My bf and I can get kinda intense with making out (as you saw my short list of things not to do) but we have never gotten close to making a mistake like that, so we have never really had to talk about it. Some how we just knew each others limits without even really having to say anything.

 

[lovingboy]

My question would be, where in scriptures is it stated that this is sinful behavior? It is not sex, which is what the bible states clearly as being wrong outside of marriage. The Bible does not say anything against this kind of behavior, but on the other hand, the Song of Songs (song of Salomon) seems to even condone it as moral.

 

[Briseis]

My question would be, where in scriptures is it stated that this is sinful behavior? It is not sex, which is what the bible states clearly as being wrong outside of marriage. So what exactly is this sinful behavior, as it is not lusting over anyone, but is only mutual pleasure which if it is not sex, it is the equivalent of making out. The Bible does not say anything against this kind of behavior, but on the other hand, the Song of Songs (song of Salomon) seems to even condone it as moral.

Can you honestly say that with your hand in your gf's pants you are not thinking aobut sex? Perhaps knowing that "never, never", but still wanting? Because the Bible does say that if you lust after a woman it is the same as commiting adultery. Perhaps you can honestly say that. And if so, then I can find nothing against it.

As for the Song of Solomon, that was in a marriage setting.

 

[lovingboy]

That argument would be the equivalent of not wanting to allow making out, or even kissing for that matter, as they (could) lead to sex, or thinking about sex.

 

[Briseis]

That argument would be the equivalent of not wanting to allow making out, or even kissing for that matter, as they (could) lead to sex, or thinking about sex.

There is a difference. You have to want to understand perhaps. It is very hard to explain for me. There is a different betwen "possibly" leading to sex and "likely" leading to sex. Most things are possible, so I guess you could say that me and my bf making out could lead to sex, but we know it wont. And I personally am not very easily tempted sexually, that is why I have this physical relationship with my bf. If I were thinking about sex while making out, I would not do it. Perhaps this seems harsh to you, because you really want to make out with your gf, but that is how it goes. I would quote you the verse but I dont know it off hand.

 

[ByLoveAndGrace]

Yes. If you kiss your gf, and you think about sex, you have therefore comitted that offense in your mind... and it's the same thing as adultery. It is possible to kiss without thinking about sex. I know this from experience... and maybe drawing the line a little higher for the two of you will prevent you from coming so close to temptation. For me and my bf, we don't even makeout... just kiss. I know for some that may be overdoing it... but we don't get into those tempting situations you are talking about because we know that is our boundaries. We also have a couple that is our accountability partners... and they keep us in check... maybe something else you can look into to keep you from crossing your boundaries.

I think you know to draw the line, when you are thinking about having sex, because then you are lusting, and that is biblically wrong.

 

[lovingboy]

I was not thinking about sex tho, the only thing that I was honestly thinking about was just giving myself to her and show my affection. As i already stated I am not a believer of sex before marriage and what throws me off even more is that every Christian that i ask tells me something completely different. As far as the verse, what does it say just in general?

 

[ByLoveAndGrace]

I believe this is the section of scripture you were looking for, Briesis


Matthew 5:28-30
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

The overall point to this, and practical application of it, shows that if you are having problems lusting after your gf because you are making out, then you need to stop making out. Plain and simple.

 

[lovingboy]

And then the other question is, if marriage is defined as true love, as oppossed to just a piece of paper, then how could lust even take place amongst two adults who truly love each other? (but once again, I do not think that lust is really the case at hand)

 

[Briseis]

That is a whole other issue that is well discussed around here, and one that I really do not want to get into.

 

[ByLoveAndGrace]

Marriage is true love, and a covenant between you and your spouse and God. BUT, let me say, that it is biblically true that you need that marriage certificate to be married. I say this because, you are required to follow the laws of the land you live in. I posted in this forum:: http://www.christianforums.com/t3029132-sex-before-marriage.html&page=14#post24724864

If you read the last two posts, it shows several different biblical references as to why you need to be married through the legal system.

That's why it matters. God ordained us to follow those laws, and we must. So marriage is not truly defined as true love, and therefore lust can take place.

 

[ByLoveAndGrace]

That is a whole other issue that is well discussed around here, and one that I really do not want to get into.

Agreed. There is many other forums with this debate right now... if anyone wants to debate what marriage is defined as... please don't do it here... find another thread that has that debate already. There are many out there.

 

[lovingboy]

Now thinking back on the situation, I was not even the one to initiate, she was the one to put my hand there, which to me rectifies the situation as not being one of lust. I believe that we are miscommunicating; all I want to know is if the behavior was not lustful, but one of affection and it is not sex (which is itsn't) then what bound has been breached?

 

[Briseis]

Now thinking back on the situation, I was not even the one to initiate, she was the one to put my hand there, which to me rectifies the situation as not being one of lust. I believe that we are miscommunicating; all I want to know is if the behavior was not lustful, but one of affection and it is not sex (which is itsn't) then what bound has been breached?

None. Although I do think that it is close enough to sex to be off limits anyway. There is no rule or recommendation against it, but I just do not understand why someone feels they need to justify it.

If you were refering to us when you said 'miscommunicating", I do not think we were. I remembered that it was her who initiated, but it was still possible for you to lust. I was trying to cover all the bases.

 

[lovingboy]

Iwas not trying to justify it, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same track. I was just curious to know if the scriptures said anything against it that I was not aware of.
Thanks for the info, you have been really helpful.

 

[bliz]

Please explain to me how your hands in her pants, when she is wearing them, was not a sexual thing.

The Bible does not say that everything is OK except for penis-in-vagina. The Bible's standard is purity, not virginity.

 

[Briseis]

Lets just pretend that it is ok for a second, since that is where he is at right now. Was your gf thinking about sex? I think perhaps she was, since she obvious had a sudden problem with it. Maybe that is where things changed for her, and she knew better. So in that case, you should not do it again, for her sake.