Hi there! I'm not sure how I got here, but...

[LilLamb219]

The message of the Gospel is truly offensive (to non-Christians). Scriptures also calls it foolishness to those who don't have faith.

With that in mind, there could be other reasons why someone would want to take such time to try to debunk Christianity. It could be that the person had overly legalistic parents and was fighting back. It could be that he/she was jilted by a love who was Christian and wanted to retaliate. It could be that there were far too many obnoxious Christians in his/her face for too many years (yep, there are some obnoxious Christians who don't realize that the in your face evangelism just isn't always going to be effective and in fact has the opposite effect than what was desired).

Welcome to CF!

 

[Key]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on a religious forum. I'm 27, and live in Australia, near Sydney. I don't follow any religion, and I do not affiliate myself with any relgious organisation. It's funny how I managed to find myself at this forum. Here's the story.

I was surfing around on youtube wasting some time when I came across this video.

Prove that Jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

Basically, it's a video that is supposed to prove that Jesus doesn't exist, using (strangely enough), passages from the Christian bible to make it's point. Even as a non-Christian, I recognise that it's argument is flawed. I've never met a Christian who has claimed that Jesus should appear to them at a whim, and it seems to be grappling with the semantics of the Bible, not the message.

After I watched it, I couldn't get it out of my head. Why was this non-Christian trying to make SUCH a point out of this? Or is it more than that? Now, as I said, I don't follow a religion, and I have no idea whether Jesus exists or not, but it still struck me as strange that a non-Christian would take the time and energy to make a video to prove that Jesus doesn't exist. Why would a non-Christian care about that? Why would they go on such a crusade to debunk something that doesn't affect them personally Have any Christians here had any experiences with people of this mindset?

I'd really love some sensible dialogue on this.

EDIT:
I just realised that I may be treading on shaky grounds with this topic, but I can assure you, I'm not here with any underlying anti-Christian agenda. Although I'm not Christian, I realise that this is a forum FOR Christians, and I will do my best to ensure that I don't say anything that is offensive or disrespectful to your faith (please let me know if I do). I am here with an open-minded approach. I'm not interested in changing anyones views, beliefs or convictions. Thank you.

Ahh yes the Christ Mythers, such a sad little group of people to tell the truth.

The idea stands, that if Christ did not exist, then Christanity is false.

So far, I have only seen truly pathetic attempts to disprove Christ (Jesus) walked the earth.

What is your question, if I may ask.

God Bless

Key

 

[gmadison]

Welcome to the forum. I'm amazed that you have come to the forum and I admire you innocense.
There is a simple answer to your question. It's not very pretty though.
The answer is sin.
If someone can prove that there is no God, If they can prove Jesus to be less than pure or for that matter less than God then there must be no such think as sin and therefore I can make up my own rules. I don't have to be concerned about my fellowman. I can live as I please. I don't have to be retored to the image of God that we all were created in but lost that image because of sin. I don't need a Savior...

 

[steppres]

I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this post. I've recieved quite a few responses, and they have given me a a lot to think about.

I've read the New Testament quite a few times, and the message I've got from it is one of common sense and moral obligation to others around us. I believe its message something much greater than anything one earthly human could create. I still marvel at the fact that even as time marches forward, the message never ages. However, I've never commited myself to Christ, as it just doesn't feel "right" for me (yet).

See, I work at a Junior High School as a teachers assistant. I work with the kids with behavioural problems and I've noticed how this new generation of kids (at least, in my area), have so little respect for the human condition. I call them "digital natives". I see these kids everyday, kids that are so sad, and lacking so much self-esteem that they treat each day like a video game. Their ideas about power, or resilience have been fostered by our media-saturated western culture. The see mildness as weakness, and confuse love with sex. I try to appeal to their sense of empathy, but it seems like its missing. These kids live hard and fast, they live with a global mindset, and although they don't know the ins and outs of whats happening around the world, they know that we're living in very troubling times. When these kids think of "eternal life", they're usually talking about a cheat in Grand Theft Auto III... When we've discussed anything of religious context, they seem to get angry, and close their ears to anything remotely religious or emotionally engaging.

I get so overwhelmed sometimes, it really breaks my heart. It feels like it's me against the rest of the world, the Tv shows, the games, the magazines. I need to help these kids learn about the "real stuff", but when I try, it's like I'm speaking a different language.

My aim isn't to preach to them, but I just want to be able to make that first step. For years I've always been able to get through to these kids, but in the past 12 months, it's went from hard to impossible. Basically, I'm clutching at straws now. I read texts from all around the world, and I just want to give these kids the tools to make the hard decisions that life throws at you.

These kids are "digital natives". They didn't learn to use the internet, they were born doing it. Although their feet definately connected to this Earth, their heads are stuck in the digital domain. The detachment that the internet brings has spread to their everyday life, and some of their real life conversations sounds like something out of a chat room, complete with flames and trolling.

As you can probably tell, I'm at the end of my rope, and I've almost given up hope. This has affected me really strongly, and it's almost as though if I lose this lot, I've lost it all. Is there anyone else out there that has noticed a change in kids around the age of 14 recently, or is it just a local phenomenon in my area?

(P.S. > To JustAVessel, no, I certainly don't mind you referencing one of the greatest books in human history. )

 

[JustAVessel]

What you have been noticing with the kids you work with, I think, is a widespread problem. It may not show up as noticiably in some areas or in some people, but I do not think that the kids you are working with are alone.

That's what happens when God is taken out of the picture, especially in schools.

I'm PMing you some additional thoughts of mine b/c they don't exactly fit in with this topic, and I'm looking forward to hearing back from you!

 

[revmalone]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on a religious forum. I'm 27, and live in Australia, near Sydney. I don't follow any religion, and I do not affiliate myself with any relgious organisation. It's funny how I managed to find myself at this forum. Here's the story.

I was surfing around on youtube wasting some time when I came across this video.

Prove that Jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

Basically, it's a video that is supposed to prove that Jesus doesn't exist, using (strangely enough), passages from the Christian bible to make it's point. Even as a non-Christian, I recognise that it's argument is flawed. I've never met a Christian who has claimed that Jesus should appear to them at a whim, and it seems to be grappling with the semantics of the Bible, not the message.

After I watched it, I couldn't get it out of my head. Why was this non-Christian trying to make SUCH a point out of this? Or is it more than that? Now, as I said, I don't follow a religion, and I have no idea whether Jesus exists or not, but it still struck me as strange that a non-Christian would take the time and energy to make a video to prove that Jesus doesn't exist. Why would a non-Christian care about that? Why would they go on such a crusade to debunk something that doesn't affect them personally Have any Christians here had any experiences with people of this mindset?

I'd really love some sensible dialogue on this.

EDIT:
I just realised that I may be treading on shaky grounds with this topic, but I can assure you, I'm not here with any underlying anti-Christian agenda. Although I'm not Christian, I realise that this is a forum FOR Christians, and I will do my best to ensure that I don't say anything that is offensive or disrespectful to your faith (please let me know if I do). I am here with an open-minded approach. I'm not interested in changing anyones views, beliefs or convictions. Thank you.

Greetings
We Christians are instructed by Scripture about Spiritual battles. He is one of what we call Anti-Christ spiritual workers. This the Spiritual battle that Jesus told us would happen.

I can tell you That Jesus is very real, that is why he is calling you. He lead you here for me to tell you he is real. Hope you accept my answers.

Come to Christ
Rev Malone

 

[hid06]

Greetings
We Christians are instructed by Scripture about Spiritual battles. He is one of what we call Anti-Christ spiritual workers. This the Spiritual battle that Jesus told us would happen.

I can tell you That Jesus is very real, that is why he is calling you. He lead you here for me to tell you he is real. Hope you accept my answers.

Come to Christ
Rev Malone

Exactly what I was thinking!

 

[Key]

I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this post. I've recieved quite a few responses, and they have given me a a lot to think about.

I've read the New Testament quite a few times, and the message I've got from it is one of common sense and moral obligation to others around us. I believe its message something much greater than anything one earthly human could create. I still marvel at the fact that even as time marches forward, the message never ages. However, I've never commited myself to Christ, as it just doesn't feel "right" for me (yet).

See, I work at a Junior High School as a teachers assistant. I work with the kids with behavioural problems and I've noticed how this new generation of kids (at least, in my area), have so little respect for the human condition. I call them "digital natives". I see these kids everyday, kids that are so sad, and lacking so much self-esteem that they treat each day like a video game. Their ideas about power, or resilience have been fostered by our media-saturated western culture. The see mildness as weakness, and confuse love with sex. I try to appeal to their sense of empathy, but it seems like its missing. These kids live hard and fast, they live with a global mindset, and although they don't know the ins and outs of whats happening around the world, they know that we're living in very troubling times. When these kids think of "eternal life", they're usually talking about a cheat in Grand Theft Auto III... When we've discussed anything of religious context, they seem to get angry, and close their ears to anything remotely religious or emotionally engaging.

I get so overwhelmed sometimes, it really breaks my heart. It feels like it's me against the rest of the world, the Tv shows, the games, the magazines. I need to help these kids learn about the "real stuff", but when I try, it's like I'm speaking a different language.

My aim isn't to preach to them, but I just want to be able to make that first step. For years I've always been able to get through to these kids, but in the past 12 months, it's went from hard to impossible. Basically, I'm clutching at straws now. I read texts from all around the world, and I just want to give these kids the tools to make the hard decisions that life throws at you.

These kids are "digital natives". They didn't learn to use the internet, they were born doing it. Although their feet definately connected to this Earth, their heads are stuck in the digital domain. The detachment that the internet brings has spread to their everyday life, and some of their real life conversations sounds like something out of a chat room, complete with flames and trolling.

As you can probably tell, I'm at the end of my rope, and I've almost given up hope. This has affected me really strongly, and it's almost as though if I lose this lot, I've lost it all. Is there anyone else out there that has noticed a change in kids around the age of 14 recently, or is it just a local phenomenon in my area?

(P.S. > To JustAVessel, no, I certainly don't mind you referencing one of the greatest books in human history. )

This is very touching. And I can only respect your problem and increase of worry as time carries on.

Children do have a problem with religion, but the problem may not be with the religion, but with the stigma that has been slapped onto religion. The idea that people that are religious are lost in time, "Stuck in the Mud", "Boreing" will want to take away their fun.

And that mindset is reinforced when we see things like People voteing for a mamber to office of Goverment based on who/what they hate because of religion.

As they interact with the world around them, and are exposed to diffrent cultures they grow, this should be a good thing, but then when they look at the people around them, that seem to be at loss and against technology because it is perceived as "Ungodly" they get the idea that "Those Religious People are stuck in a box" that they (The Religious) are the ones with out a clue, and that these "Digital Natives" are the ones in connect to the world around them.

The more we (the Religious) protest to these things, the more "Lost and Left behind" we seem to them, as they venture out into the "World" leaving those that follow religion in their wake to drown.

But this view is perpertated by the reactionist religious groups that scream louder and louder that "You will Burn in Hell" and that only seems to build a desire to sever ties to that "Old and Worn out" culture, that those "Old Farts" do not have a clue.

Sadly, they are right, to an extent.

These stigmas were not applied to Religion for not reason, and there are groups and people that do show this side of Religion, true to form, and build upon an already rejected foundation.

First, I would guess, you need to remove religion, and place it on it;s own platform, so that people could see it, for what it is. A way to live a great life, free from slavery and bondage. To give power to the individual, to offer a better life.

I do not know if I have answered yrou questions or not. But I hope I have given you some things to think about.

God Bless

Key

 

[dvd_holc]

Greetings steppres,

I want to make a couple of quick observations. Though I don't know you fully, from what you have described of yourself has made belief that you have already responded to God’s creation and purpose for humanity which is to be in harmony with God, each other, and the environment. But we actively choose to destroy those relationships with a lot of things we pursue.

If you believe that the bible was influenced by something beyond it or those people, which I call God, then I would suggest that you push on to reach that entity. As a word of caution, if you only read the bible with the mindset of an Ausee in the 21st century looking for moral teachings then you have missed the actual historic settings and expectations of the people of the bible. Though I know that you have not quite come to ask about that on this thread, I can’t help but warning you against reducing the bible to moral teaching when a lot more of the bible is wrapped around kingdoms, God, Jesus, heaven, hell, and other things.

Further, religious discussions don’t begin and end with “well the bible says” even though we (Christians) are rooted in the faith of God contained in the bible.

Now, we see the effects of evil, sin, and moral decay within the choices of people, today. People always marvel at the amounts of evil in the world. It can be overwhelming to take on the cause of changing the systemic problem of evil in the world because evil is natural bending reality to a half truth or subjective truth. For example, Nazis said Jews and certain others were animals so they can kill them. They bent the truth and destroyed lives. And fundamentally, we fight against any truths that are not the ultimate reality.

This is way we move instinctively toward the ultimate reality of existence which is God and purpose of life. Therefore when we worship God and live His way, we are living in harmony with the way it was meant to be. Then, heaven is a present reality. Likewise when we are living in His harmony, we are participating in the reformation of creation back to a harmonize state it originally was in. We are in a present darkness, but the darkness is passing by for the true hope and light of the world.

A lot of times, in my past, I have known people to be just reacting to situations and desires. I am sure you have asked the question to teenagers why did you do that and received the commit, “I don’t know.” But we know it is not that simple, a lot of times people are reacting to past experiences that left resounding effects in them.

I know a 16 year old whose parents did not want him, so he is living with his grandmother. Multiple times in his life, his mother made it known to him that she does not want him. This was a leading reason why he seeked attention and approval of others above all other things. He got expelled from school because he would not act right in classes because he is constantly joking around to get that approval. Well, long story short…the grandma said you will have a job or you won’t live her. He got a job in something that he did not like…well he quits and runs away…he hates his job because no one has encouraged him be reinforcing to him that he did something good with his life. Then, he ran away because he did not want to get reject by another mother figure again.

Selfishness, laziness, and endless desire to be entertained are the essentially messages that children are receiving. They are the messages that we are parents have given them in the homes and this is what they are producing.

We have to move people beyond the empty shells of satisfaction entertainment, drugs, alcohol, and main other things promise because our lives were meant for something greater than a temporary stimulus that passes. Therefore, we drive committed and passionately pursue after the fulfillment and hope of a matured life of harmony and truth. This life is rooted in our faith and relationship with God. We build our lives around him. We reflect on who we are and what we do. We choice love which builds up life. And the presence of love is the presence of God who built up creation. There is no other religion or lifestyle that promises more while being rooted in reality.

If people convince themselves that Christianity is not the ultimate truth, they don’t have to pursue being in harmony with all people the way God created us for. Look at atheist, they don’t have a god so they only have to answer to themselves and a subjective truth of their purpose that always changes to allow themselves leeway. (not bashing them here)…but if ultimate reality is found in Christianity…then they are called to a much higher level of commitment to reality.


PS...if bible really did not matter to them...they would ignore it...why waste you time...

 

[steppres]

Hi guys, I just wanted to let you all know that I made a slight error when I joined up. I put humanist as my denomonation, when in fact, I don't follow any doctrine. I'm still trying to figure out how to change it to something more appropriate.

Is agnostic the right choice to go with?

 

[Breaking Babylon]

Yes, I would say so, Steppres.

Welcome to ChristianForums, by the way. You can't change your faith icon yourself, but if you'd let me know exactly what you'd like it changed to, I'll put it in it's proper place and let you know when it's acted on.

I hope you find what you're looking for, here.

 

[strikerchris0411]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on a religious forum. I'm 27, and live in Australia, near Sydney. I don't follow any religion, and I do not affiliate myself with any relgious organisation. It's funny how I managed to find myself at this forum. Here's the story.

I was surfing around on youtube wasting some time when I came across this video.

Prove that Jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes

Basically, it's a video that is supposed to prove that Jesus doesn't exist, using (strangely enough), passages from the Christian bible to make it's point. Even as a non-Christian, I recognise that it's argument is flawed. I've never met a Christian who has claimed that Jesus should appear to them at a whim, and it seems to be grappling with the semantics of the Bible, not the message.

After I watched it, I couldn't get it out of my head. Why was this non-Christian trying to make SUCH a point out of this? Or is it more than that? Now, as I said, I don't follow a religion, and I have no idea whether Jesus exists or not, but it still struck me as strange that a non-Christian would take the time and energy to make a video to prove that Jesus doesn't exist. Why would a non-Christian care about that? Why would they go on such a crusade to debunk something that doesn't affect them personally Have any Christians here had any experiences with people of this mindset?

I'd really love some sensible dialogue on this.

EDIT:
I just realised that I may be treading on shaky grounds with this topic, but I can assure you, I'm not here with any underlying anti-Christian agenda. Although I'm not Christian, I realise that this is a forum FOR Christians, and I will do my best to ensure that I don't say anything that is offensive or disrespectful to your faith (please let me know if I do). I am here with an open-minded approach. I'm not interested in changing anyones views, beliefs or convictions. Thank you.

I don't know my father is atheist and he trys to prove that God is not real all the time. LIke once him and another one of his friends were involved in an argument and he said " IF god is real he will make this penny dissapear" and no matter how I tried to tell him that you shall not tempt the lord and that he shouldn't expect God to do something. He said he had won that debate. Maybe that person that made the video felt reall insecure about his faith. Maybe he was in denial. Maybe he was so afraid that he was wrong that he overcompensated. If you know what I mean..

I would think that a person that didn't believe in God wouldn't care that others thought about God. What do you think about God personally. Do you think he absolutely does not exist or are you starting to question yourself. Because i see that you did not put atheist as your religous icon.

 

[intricatic]

I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this post. I've recieved quite a few responses, and they have given me a a lot to think about.

I've read the New Testament quite a few times, and the message I've got from it is one of common sense and moral obligation to others around us. I believe its message something much greater than anything one earthly human could create. I still marvel at the fact that even as time marches forward, the message never ages. However, I've never commited myself to Christ, as it just doesn't feel "right" for me (yet).

Hey, welcome to the forums!

How one feels about it shouldn't be entirely an indicator of whether it's correct or incorrect, but I definitely know where you're coming from here. I've been there before, myself. It takes a shove of sorts to make things click into place, but if you're patient, you'll find it.

See, I work at a Junior High School as a teachers assistant. I work with the kids with behavioural problems and I've noticed how this new generation of kids (at least, in my area), have so little respect for the human condition. I call them "digital natives". I see these kids everyday, kids that are so sad, and lacking so much self-esteem that they treat each day like a video game. Their ideas about power, or resilience have been fostered by our media-saturated western culture. The see mildness as weakness, and confuse love with sex. I try to appeal to their sense of empathy, but it seems like its missing. These kids live hard and fast, they live with a global mindset, and although they don't know the ins and outs of whats happening around the world, they know that we're living in very troubling times. When these kids think of "eternal life", they're usually talking about a cheat in Grand Theft Auto III... When we've discussed anything of religious context, they seem to get angry, and close their ears to anything remotely religious or emotionally engaging.

This is a large problem everywhere. Especially in schools and college campuses - it's dirrectly related to postmodern thinking, and it's terribly confusing and frustrating. It's not necessarily that they turn from anything religious or emotionally engaging, but that they only want the emotional experience without any of the firmaments of religious structure that defines the historic structure of what 'religion' implies. They also only want instant fixes, which has a lot to do with the technological advances made in the last thirty years. I imagine it's like a culture shock of sorts to have so much of a shift in the way we communicate and the way we live life in general.

I get so overwhelmed sometimes, it really breaks my heart. It feels like it's me against the rest of the world, the Tv shows, the games, the magazines. I need to help these kids learn about the "real stuff", but when I try, it's like I'm speaking a different language.

You'll have that sometimes. The point at which it ceases to be about communication and starts being about helping people to learn how to walk again hit us in the '90s, and it's been expanding outward ever since. It's like the world of man has slipped on a blindfold to hide from the reality it represents. Instead of constructive progress, it's wandering in the dark, groping for a lightswitch, eventually it just sits down on the floor and pretends that it's not really just that blindfold over it's eyes that's making the room so dark. The only real way to help people in this state is to wake them up and pull that blindfold off.

My aim isn't to preach to them, but I just want to be able to make that first step. For years I've always been able to get through to these kids, but in the past 12 months, it's went from hard to impossible. Basically, I'm clutching at straws now. I read texts from all around the world, and I just want to give these kids the tools to make the hard decisions that life throws at you.

Show them the world.

These kids are "digital natives". They didn't learn to use the internet, they were born doing it. Although their feet definately connected to this Earth, their heads are stuck in the digital domain. The detachment that the internet brings has spread to their everyday life, and some of their real life conversations sounds like something out of a chat room, complete with flames and trolling.

This is both true, and false, in a sense. People have always had this dynamic of communication, but it's become exacerbated and absurd thanks to the impersonal mode of communication the internet provides. Once the realization that there are actual people sitting behind the screen, typing the words that appear there strikes home, it becomes more about human dignity and the total removal of the human spirit from mankind. When the focus is on only the individual - the individual being the center of their own reality - things start going downhill for mankind. We can create new worlds in video games, programming, television, and the like, so why not in the world we live in? The paradigm stops being about that hard, real world that we interact with, and more about the frustration that comes because it's immobile. We need to irrigate deserts, not cut down forrests, in the words of C.S. Lewis.

As you can probably tell, I'm at the end of my rope, and I've almost given up hope. This has affected me really strongly, and it's almost as though if I lose this lot, I've lost it all. Is there anyone else out there that has noticed a change in kids around the age of 14 recently, or is it just a local phenomenon in my area?

It's not local, it's nearly universal in the US, at least. I have the same frustrations at school, and that's even an earlier generation than what we're talking about here. I don't belong to the generation I was born into, which makes things even more difficult.

If you want to discuss this a bit, you can feel free to PM me, I'm not much keen on writing up long posts much as most people tend to completely ignore them.

Anyhow, I hope you enjoy it here on the forums! God Bless.

 

[jlerollin]

one thing that helps with kids of that age group is to take them off on a nature retreat. this puts them in touch with nature and closer to being in touch with each other and will be a time they will never forget.
also on spiritual influence which is what you want you will have to acually develop a spiritually powerful dynamic if you want to overcome the anti christian spirit

i know you are not sure but the power to change lives comes from god

 

[InterestedAtheist]

.