Hi - nice atheist here

DennisTate · Aug 24, 2017

brinny said:
No problem....

what show?

When a polite and friendly Atheist wanders over into this
group..... they could well get so many replies that they can't quite manage to answer all.......
even if they truly want to.......

Here is a paragraph on the information that led to me getting myself disfellowshipped from the Worldwide Church of God.... and from the Philadelphia Church of God..... all in about a month or so back in 1991........

Dr. George Ritchie, near-death.com:

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"

Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

BNR32FAN · Aug 24, 2017

grahamsnumber said:
Hi, BNR32FAN. Of course, that's a huge question that we'll no doubt get into, but the short version is that I think life evolved on Earth over billions of years, starting with very simple molecules that randomly interacted to get a slightly more complicated molecule that would copy itself by simple chemical reactions (and most of those copies would be pretty bad). Even getting that far, to the very simplest version of reproduction, took most of a billion years. Then evolution continued. We'll have to talk more - a big, big subject!

There are a few things about evolution that doesn't make sense to me. For example we don't see any evidence today of life forms still in the process of evolving from one state to the next. AKA the missing link. Then there's the question of how could these first life forms survive the beginning stages of the evolution process if it takes billions of years for the process to occur? What are the chances that the conditions would stay consistently correct for these early fragile forms of life to survive for the amount of time necessary for them to evolve? How and why did this natural mutation occur in the same manner worldwide. For example all humans have 10 fingers and 10 toes, 2 eyes ect. Not only is the form of humans alike worldwide but animals as well. Sure there are different variations of species but the overall basic design is the same. The placement of our bodily features show signs of an intelligent design no doubt. Our hands and fingers and opposable thimb, the placement of our eyes, and countless more features in the design of not only the human body but also other animals also indicates intelligent design. The design of all life on earth indicates intelligent design not evolution or mutation. Then there's the question of the perfectly balanced ecosystem of our planet. The way that some forms of life exhaust certain elements and others replenish them. For example the plants provide oxygen and require carbon dioxide and mammals require oxygen and produce carbon dioxide and the balance of these two elements stay within the correct parameters to sustain both mammals and plants without the over population of one or the other that would result in an imbalance of these elements and ultimately kill all life. Then there's the ozone, gravity, water, planet placement and these are only a tiny fraction of the requirements for life to exist on earth. So not only does the construction of the many forms of life on earth indicate intelligent design but also the design of the ecosystem, our planet, and the solar system. If Jupiter didn't exist our planet would be completely demolished by meteors. So what we can come to a pretty sound theory that this intelligent creator would have to have the ability to influence all of these things I've mentioned. Could it possibly be aliens? In many ways God would fit the description of extraterrestrial life. These things I've mentioned are so much more are discussed in the video I provided in my earlier post. It shows actual scientific evidence of all these examples and gives the names of the scientists who conducted these studies. It doesn't show a bunch of myths and superstitions but hard core facts that have been proven by science. Its a very interesting series. You should check it out. I'll post it here again. If you want to skip the intro and get to the scientific studies skip to about 7min 30sec in the video. Have a blessed day.

Joe Fizz · Aug 24, 2017

Winken said:
Hi & bye ...... you are ignored.

that is hardly the "correct" attitude to take biblically,because if one can't forbear other outlooks then what faith have ye?

Joe Fizz · Aug 24, 2017

Occams Barber said:
Hi grahamsnumber

My name is Occam’s Barber and I am the totally unofficial and absolutely unauthorised meeter and greeter for new atheist members of the Forum .

Firstly – Welcome to CF, The natives are friendly. Within CF you will be restricted to certain areas and will be expected to refrain from criticism of the teachings of various denominations. You are a guest. Please leave the toilet seat down.

For those areas you cannot enter you will be able to look through the bars and watch the Golden Ones at play. Please do not poke the occupants or attempt to feed them.

In the event you run into a Christian while wandering the deep, dank, corridors of CF there is an accepted protocol. With eyes downcast, bend forward in a small bow acknowledging the superior status of your Christian interlocutor. Extend your right hand, palm down. When you feel the Christian licking the back of your hand you can be assured that no attack is imminent. Back away quietly.

There is a group of Superior Beings you may encounter in CF. Known as the Moderators or Mods or They Who Will Be Obeyed, these Divine Creatures came to Earth with Powers and Abilities Beyond Those of Mortal Men/Women. They can be recognised by their blinding radiance and a tiara.

In the unfortunate event you encounter one of these Heavenly Creatures the protocol is strict. Do NOT speak. Do NOT attempt eye contact. Prostrate yourself face down, full length on the floor with arms by your sides. Raise your head and tap it gently but firmly on the floor three times while repeating the following mantra:

“I am the stain beneath your feet. I am the toe jam of your camel.”

If you hear a deep, guttural rumbling sound this is the Magnificent One expressing its approval of your abject abasement. Raise your body slowly and shuffle out backwards on all fours.

Occasionally you will come across gaunt, decrepit individuals dressed in soiled garments and cowering in foetid corners. Do not be afraid. These are your fellow atheists.
OB

sorry to burst your bubble but no mere "person" is superior to any "person" only God/Jesus is superior to us in any regard!

Joe Fizz · Aug 24, 2017

Welcome here you can discuss with bible smart people and possibly make new friends,hope you like it here!

BNR32FAN · Aug 24, 2017

grahamsnumber said:
This was the starting point I had, as well. In particular, I always thought that the mentions of Jesus in Josephus were conclusive, but that was before I started to learn about them. It turns out that in the entire corpus of Josephus's writings there are only two mentions, and both are highly suspect as forgeries (one of them, the so-called "Testimonium Flavianum", is almost certainly a later interpolation, and the other is either an interpolation or a later misunderstanding of who was being talked about). Time after time after time, when you look at the extra-Biblical evidence, you find that it dissolves under close scrutiny. All of the later authors, such as Origen, Tacitus, Eusebius, et al., simply are quoting what earlier Christians were saying, so can't count as actual evidence.

Now, the interpretation of Josephus is not universally agreed-upon, even by secular scholars. But the pro-historicist arguments for the Josephus passages are weak at best.

Yes I agree there have been many forgeries in Christian writings. It's unfortunate that is makes us question the validity of all Christian writings but then again even if the forgeries didn't exist we would still question their validity just the same. In the end no one will ever prove God's existence without a doubt. That's just the way God wants it. It seems apparent to me that God wants us to believe on faith not hard solid proof. Personally I think the reason for this is because I don't think He wants us to obey Him out of fear but instead out of a desire to do good. But that's just a thought. I believe He knows what's best for us and He has His reasons.

BNR32FAN · Aug 24, 2017

Joe Fizz said:
sorry to burst your bubble but no mere "person" is superior to any "person" only God/Jesus is superior to us in any regard!

We're restricted from criticizing other denominations? Wow are you new here? Have you seen the Protestant vs Catholic threads or Purgatory threads?

Winken · Aug 24, 2017

Joe Fizz said:
that is hardly the "correct" attitude to take biblically,because if one can't forbear other outlooks then what faith have ye?

Mine is not an "attitude." Mine is an avoidance of that which questions the existence of my Savior. I need no other argument, I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died and that He died for me.

mark kennedy · Aug 24, 2017

Amazing Horse said:
If Jesus did not exist why do people use calendar after him? Shouldn't atheists have thier own , because every time you say 2017 you say time since Jesus was born .

I don't know if there are any calendars after Mahomet or Buddah

They don't say AD and BC anymore, they call it the common era or some such.

grahamsnumber · Aug 25, 2017

Dirk1540 said:
No I don't believe we are talking about Extraterrestrial beings. But I guess this will become a moot point if you doubt the reality of them. I actually find the evidence to be off the charts. What is off the charts is how many people have spoken out. Unfortunately, even as we sit here in 2017, if CNN doesn't confirm something it remains 'Conspiracy Theory.' That video I posted, there was literal criteria as to why a case would make a top 10 list, actually a point system applied to the cases. As an example a police station flooded with calls from multiple locations, objects caught on radar, top ranking Air Force instructors who know the best current aviation technology witnessing an object that defies our technology, multiple witnesses, cases documented in military archives, etc. When it comes to UFOs...WHO the witnesses are means a lot. Pilots should be considered stronger testimony than people would have normal jobs!

I was hinting at how in fact I don't see it as Extraterrestrial beings because of...well again a moot point if you don't agree on the existence lol.

A number of authors have done extensive analyses of the UFO phenomenon. What I've seen is that the vast majority are hoaxes or misunderstandings. Humans make incredibly lousy witnesses, to a degree that most people have no idea about. Because of this, stories get exaggerated tremendously, and not on purpose. After repeating a story, we tend to believe it ourselves, even if it contains slight exaggerations. This problem gets repeated over and over, and the story eventually grows on its own. Every time I've seen an investigation of a story, the story turns out to be false. A great example is the so-called Roswell Incident in 1947 (I think). We have a great understanding of what happened there, but over the years the story got exaggerated repeatedly, until in the 70s the story had grown to the point that there were bodies recovered. This continued until the current day, by which time the story in the popular culture is way, way bigger than the original. Another famous case occurred in Ohio some years ago, in which two police officers chased for almost 80 miles an object that turned out to be Venus. The human brain can be fooled very easily once it has decided that what it is seeing is a recognized object, and from then on significant details will be filled in automatically.

A good place to start in UFO discussions is, I think, to look at the details of your favorite case, to establish what the basic facts are.

Dirk1540 · Aug 25, 2017

grahamsnumber said:
A great example is the so-called Roswell Incident in 1947 (I think). We have a great understanding of what happened there, but over the years the story got exaggerated repeatedly, until in the 70s the story had grown to the point that there were bodies recovered.

LOL a guy I used to work with loved the recovered bodies story haha. He talked about it all the time.

grahamsnumber · Aug 25, 2017

Dirk1540 said:
I'm not sure you understand how drastically you're underrating the gospels as historical data! You rank the apocryphal Acts of Peter as having more weight than the gospels?? And you started out denying that Jesus even existed. I think that you should realize that you are in the minority on issues even among atheist scholars. There are Jesus debates taking place in universities all over the world constantly. The vast majority of debaters taking the NEGATIVE position on Christianity grant way more historical facts then you are granting. Just saying.

I admit that historically speaking the traditional martyrdoms of the apostles have probably nothing going for them beyond faith. Peter does have a little bit more going for him at least (except for Paul). Eusebius, considered to be generally accurate in what he reports, records the martyrdoms of Peter (crucified upside down) and Paul. So does Clement of Rome. I also don't imagine it's too hard to imagine Nero of being capable of such a thing. It was during his reign that Peter & Paul were said to be killed in Rome, and the cemeteries there are still called by the names Peter & Paul (for whatever that's worth). So does a churchman named Gaius, who lived when Zephyrinus was Bishop of Rome. In written dialogue with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian opinion [The Montanists], Gaius says the following about the places where the sacred remains of the apostles in question are laid;

"I can point out the trophies [monuments] of the apostles. If you will go to the Vatican or the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded the church."

And that they were both martyred at the same time Bishop Dionysius of Corinth affirms in a letter written to the Romans;

"By your great council you have bound together what has grown from the seed that Peter and Paul sowed among Romans and Corinthians. For both of them sowed in our Corinth and instructed us together; in Italy too they taught jointly in the same place and were martyred at the same time."

EDIT...sorry, in regards to me pointing out that most people don't deny Jesus' existence, and they grant more facts than you do...I do realize that that's a poor man's argument and I should instead lay out the case as to WHY that is so! Sorry I'm just up to my eyes in other things right now...can someone else take this?

But grahamsnumber, you should really check out that book I posted earlier, the Amazon link...for some strange reason I used to be like you. Seemed like all I was uncovering was cheesy UFO accounts that were lame for a very long time. Then all the sudden I found myself uncovering some drastically more impressive material for some reason!

I definitely realize that I am in the minority, even among secular scholars. I have watched many debates between Christian scholars and secular scholars, and many between secular scholars and other secular scholars. But I have found the arguments of the good mythicists, especially Richard Carrier, very convincing (David Fitzgerald too, but he is much less formal than Carrier, who has the first peer-reviewed research on the subject that reaches the mythicist conclusion). Carrier has a PhD in ancient history and the origins of Christianity from Columbia. This isn't to say that there aren't many impressive scholars with equally impressive PhDs on the other side -- there certainly are, and many more, in fact -- it's just to say that he has real qualifications and so his work is at least worth a look, even if you disagree with it.

As far as the Acts of Peter, I'm definitely not saying that it has the same weight as the canonical stuff. In fact, that's exactly the point: it's only in that poor source that anything about Peter's crucifixion is mentioned, thus underscoring that we really don't know much about it (historically, that is - faith itself is another matter). I don't include others like Eusebius in the evidence, simply because they wrote much later, and were quoting what earlier Christians were saying, and so just can't be seen as separate evidence. Now, a later author can be useful if he or she cites their sources, even if we don't have those sources, because often there is quite a bit that can be deduced from the descriptions. But Eusebius almost never does, at least about subjects like Peter (I'm not 100% sure on this - I'll have to look it up). Clement, again, doesn't write as a contemporary, but much later. I think scholars think probably the early second century, and certainly not earlier than the very end of the first century, and it's very disputed who the author actually was. Mostly I can't take the later writings as evidence, as they are quoting earlier writers and don't explain their sources.

Now, I agree that's an easy hand-waving argument, but we have to start somewhere. In particular, I think it's useful to start with the oldest sources and move forward from there.

grahamsnumber · Aug 25, 2017

DennisTate said:
Wow...... I really hadn't quite thought of it that way before...... that does make sense!

Basically I am attempting to lay a foundation for the theory that human lives..... and all lives......
may be a bit like hologram technology....... combined with high level Artificial Intelligence...... but even more than that..........

.... If....... those near death experience accounts that indicate that every moment of your life.... and my life... .and Colton Burpo's life... and all lives of all eight million near death experiencers......have been recorded on something far beyond HD or DVD.........

Then..... the possibility needs to be considered that perhaps each of us is something of a reality film STAR... .from the viewpoint of higher dimensions of space - time.

Here is what former Atheist Mellen Benedict wrote about a more Theistic version of the Cyclic Model of the Universe / Multiverse........

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

Thanks - I've brought the document up in a browser tab (that's one way to have a to-do list , and will read it. It may take a bit, as things get busy at work (I'm writing this at 12:30 am).

grahamsnumber · Aug 25, 2017

Apostle Joseph said:
Hello

My name is Apostle Joeseph Atobatele and I am the general overseer of Light of God Deliverance Church a full gospel ministry devoted to the revival of Apostlic signs, Holy Ghost fireworks, signs and wonders and unlimited demonstration of the power of God to break the chains of darkness and set the captives free.

I am a Prophet, Evangelist, teacher, Pastor AND Teacher of the word. His life and that of his wife (Pastor Joy) and their daughters Praise and Prosper are living proofs that all power belongs to God.

Hi, Apostle Joseph. What are Holy Ghost fireworks?

grahamsnumber · Aug 25, 2017

DennisTate said:
Actually.... I would like to present you with an opportunity for me.... to attempt to make you........
(G-d willing)..... extremely wealthy....... because President Trump is in a challenging position and really needs the assistance of a friendly Atheist.........

..... if he has any hope of initiating a full fledged JUBILEE year by Yom Kippur 2017.......

I believe that President Trump and his new Minister of Education..... (at least that is what we would term her up here in Canada).......
are in a position to get some variation of Intelligent Design Theory taught in USA schools.... but they will need P. M. Benjamin Netanyahu and Dr. Chaim Henry Tejman to be able to pull it off...........

As an Atheist...... would you be impressed if Israel, the USA, Canada, Jordan, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Scotland, Ireland and even Nepal...........
were no longer in the Red.... / debt... by the year 2020.... but instead were operating in the "Black?"

This can be arranged.......
with the assistance of a few friendly Atheists!

North American churches should each have their own currency!

and please notice the intriguing statement at the 24 minute mark in this video......
as well of course the Hurricane of Money dream of the 17 minute mark.........

... this has serious Artistic Value.........

The idea of getting you to be a part of President TRump's advisory team......
might fit in the Writers Guilt forum here........

I'm probably not a great choice (if I understand you), as I'm against teaching Intelligent Design in schools.

grahamsnumber · Aug 25, 2017

DennisTate said:
We Christians tend to fall into pretty serious misconceptions.......
based on what we are so certain that we know that we know.... but
our assumptions are not necessarily all that accurate.

Back in 1988, I was a member in good standing of the Worldwide Church of God
and I thought that my church.... was the best of the best of the best of the best of all churches.....

Wow ... .was I ever wrong on that one.... because our knowledge.... on some topics... had made us proud... .and our view of other churches was either close to....... or truly an example of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

When I read parts of the near death experience of Dr. George Ritchie I began to view many scriptures in a whole new light.... and by 1991 I had gotten myself disfellowshipped from the WWCG.......

..... I actually suggested to Pastor G... M.... that he may as well kick me out because I was not very good at remaining silent as I found out more and more and more............

.near-death
.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html#a05c

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"

I have a good friend whom I've known for 40 years who was a long-time member of the WWCG, and became very disillusioned after the death of Herbert W. Armstrong.

Dirk1540 · Aug 25, 2017

grahamsnumber said:
I definitely realize that I am in the minority, even among secular scholars. I have watched many debates between Christian scholars and secular scholars, and many between secular scholars and other secular scholars. But I have found the arguments of the good mythicists, especially Richard Carrier,...

Any Youtube debates that stand out as some of the best ones? I did have these 2 printed out articles in my closet, but haven't read anything on this topic in a long time...

yama7

https://www.jashow.org/articles/soc...istianity-arise-out-of-the-mystery-religions/

grahamsnumber said:
As far as the Acts of Peter, I'm definitely not saying that it has the same weight as the canonical stuff. In fact, that's exactly the point: it's only in that poor source that anything about Peter's crucifixion is mentioned, thus underscoring that we really don't know much about it (historically, that is - faith itself is another matter). I don't include others like Eusebius in the evidence, simply because they wrote much later, and were quoting what earlier Christians were saying, and so just can't be seen as separate evidence. Now, a later author can be useful if he or she cites their sources, even if we don't have those sources, because often there is quite a bit that can be deduced from the descriptions. But Eusebius almost never does, at least about subjects like Peter (I'm not 100% sure on this - I'll have to look it up). Clement, again, doesn't write as a contemporary, but much later. I think scholars think probably the early second century, and certainly not earlier than the very end of the first century, and it's very disputed who the author actually was. Mostly I can't take the later writings as evidence, as they are quoting earlier writers and don't explain their sources.

Yes I was not trying to get overly confident on my historical argument for Peter being martyred upside down. I was just pointing out that a historic case for him trumps the other non-Paul apostle martyrdom traditions. The Bible is silent on Peter's and Paul's death. IMO that is a very strange omission, unless the NT was complete before they died, they were very prominent figures in the NT story. I also find it odd that not a single verse in the Bible would tell us about the destruction of the Temple, had the Bible not been complete after 70 AD. Now I know, arguments from silence are weak...but in some rare occasions I think they can be deceptively impressive. This would almost be like reading a biography about Ronald Reagan and it ending with him still alive.

grahamsnumber · Aug 25, 2017

I've marked the video to watch. In the meantime, I'll try to address your points (although there are a lot of them, so I might have to split up the responses! I've gotten more responses to my OP than I thought - it's hard to keep up with! ).

BNR32FAN said:
There are a few things about evolution that doesn't make sense to me. For example we don't see any evidence today of life forms still in the process of evolving from one state to the next. AKA the missing link.

Actually we do have tons of intermediate forms in the fossil record, and we see transitions by the thousands in the genetic record.

BNR32FAN said:
Then there's the question of how could these first life forms survive the beginning stages of the evolution process if it takes billions of years for the process to occur?

The early life forms don't survive. They change. Chemical process after chemical process, going on and on, slowly, very slowly, becoming more complex because of tiny random changes and filtering.

BNR32FAN said:
What are the chances that the conditions would stay consistently correct for these early fragile forms of life to survive for the amount of time necessary for them to evolve?

The early "life forms" aren't that fragile - they're very, very simple, and as conditions change, so do they. If they don't, they die. Only the ones that were adapted stayed around.

BNR32FAN said:
How and why did this natural mutation occur in the same manner worldwide. For example all humans have 10 fingers and 10 toes, 2 eyes ect. Not only is the form of humans alike worldwide but animals as well. Sure there are different variations of species but the overall basic design is the same.

This is exactly what would be expected. The complex forms that are similar didn't evolve in a bunch of places exactly the same way. Rather, the successful forms reproduced and spread. And in that process, they changed. That means that mistakes (ones that didn't significantly affect an organism's ability to reproduce) also got transferred. One example is that the most common version of the eye has the optic nerve exiting the retina from the inside, producing a blind spot. A properly designed eye would have the nerves leaving the retinal cells from behind, thus avoiding a blind spot. If I remember correctly, the squid has the "correct" version. But ours was good enough, and spread.

BNR32FAN said:
The placement of our bodily features show signs of an intelligent design no doubt. Our hands and fingers and opposable thumb, the placement of our eyes, and countless more features in the design of not only the human body but also other animals also indicates intelligent design. The design of all life on earth indicates intelligent design not evolution or mutation.

I disagree - there are tons of design "mistakes" all over the place, and lists of them can be found online. Examples include the poor design of the eye, mentioned above, the human appendix, poor set-up of the human spine, using the same passage to swallow and breathe, and many, many others, making the whole thing not look intelligently designed, but looking exactly like a "good-enough" product to be expected by a slow evolutionary process.

BNR32FAN said:
Then there's the question of the perfectly balanced ecosystem of our planet. The way that some forms of life exhaust certain elements and others replenish them. For example the plants provide oxygen and require carbon dioxide and mammals require oxygen and produce carbon dioxide and the balance of these two elements stay within the correct parameters to sustain both mammals and plants without the over population of one or the other that would result in an imbalance of these elements and ultimately kill all life. Then there's the ozone, gravity, water, planet placement and these are only a tiny fraction of the requirements for life to exist on earth. So not only does the construction of the many forms of life on earth indicate intelligent design but also the design of the ecosystem, our planet, and the solar system. If Jupiter didn't exist our planet would be completely demolished by meteors. So what we can come to a pretty sound theory that this intelligent creator would have to have the ability to influence all of these things I've mentioned. Could it possibly be aliens? In many ways God would fit the description of extraterrestrial life. These things I've mentioned are so much more are discussed in the video I provided in my earlier post. It shows actual scientific evidence of all these examples and gives the names of the scientists who conducted these studies. It doesn't show a bunch of myths and superstitions but hard core facts that have been proven by science. Its a very interesting series. You should check it out. I'll post it here again. If you want to skip the intro and get to the scientific studies skip to about 7min 30sec in the video. Have a blessed day.

I'll have to get to the rest a bit later. I can see that all these discussions will be interesting and fun. But a lot of them!

AV1611VET · Aug 25, 2017

grahamsnumber said:
Hi there! I'm an atheist who enjoys talking to and debating with Christians and others in a mutually-respectful manner.

Hi, Graham! Welcome to CF!

Have you been an atheist all your life?

DennisTate · Aug 25, 2017

grahamsnumber said:
Hi, BNR32FAN. Of course, that's a huge question that we'll no doubt get into, but the short version is that I think life evolved on Earth over billions of years, starting with very simple molecules that randomly interacted to get a slightly more complicated molecule that would copy itself by simple chemical reactions (and most of those copies would be pretty bad). Even getting that far, to the very simplest version of reproduction, took most of a billion years. Then evolution continued. We'll have to talk more - a big, big subject!

Have you spent any amount of time researching what evolution might be like in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy........
rather than on earth?

I personally think that this is the next step in Evolutionary Theory that will take it to a place that is significantly more appealing to us Theists.

Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

Hi - nice atheist here

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