hi! new here - and i need some help

[feus]

Well, see, the main thing is I'm very interested in Messianic Judaism.


I've always felt a sort of...longing...for Judaism, but I ended up smushing it because I felt like it was betraying "Jesus". Which, looking back on it right now, seems, heh, slightly ridiculous. My old friend was Jewish (she's moved away now, but I still talk to her occasionally) and I always envied her for it, but like I said, I smushed that.


However, now - I feel like a whole new world's been opened up for me. I've always had questions about certain things I've been taught. (I was raised Catholic, converted to Protestantism about two years ago, and now...who knows?) Now I've pretty much discovered...well, discovered that the Law isn't quite as void as my youth pastor seemed to think - as I thought about three weeks ago! Practically my whole family is Catholic, and my best friend (the type you always count on for support) is very adamantly, um. Into the whole idea that the NT has everything we ever need to know about God, which, I'm not saying it doesn't have a lot, but - it's definitely not the complete picture. You know what I mean...probably better than I do.


So, I suppose I'm really asking for help direction-wise. (cute). I don't know where to go from here. I figure maybe you guys could help me out. I'm pretty young...15 ^^. And I still have a few questions about well, Messianic Judaism and some of the teachings of Paul in particular (of course) - or what I was always taught were his teachings (it seems so complex when it comes to him)...but anyway, none of those exact questions are popping into my head right now, unfortunately. But they are there. And confusing. And I think I'm beginning to ramble, so I'll stop now. Bet you're glad. But...any help would be greatly appreciated.


(btw, is it alright for me to post this here? or is there somewhere else i should? i'm a complete newbie...)

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Well, see, the main thing is I'm very interested in Messianic Judaism.


I've always felt a sort of...longing...for Judaism, but I ended up smushing it because I felt like it was betraying "Jesus". Which, looking back on it right now, seems, heh, slightly ridiculous. My old friend was Jewish (she's moved away now, but I still talk to her occasionally) and I always envied her for it, but like I said, I smushed that.


However, now - I feel like a whole new world's been opened up for me. I've always had questions about certain things I've been taught. (I was raised Catholic, converted to Protestantism about two years ago, and now...who knows?) Now I've pretty much discovered...well, discovered that the Law isn't quite as void as my youth pastor seemed to think - as I thought about three weeks ago! Practically my whole family is Catholic, and my best friend (the type you always count on for support) is very adamantly, um. Into the whole idea that the NT has everything we ever need to know about God, which, I'm not saying it doesn't have a lot, but - it's definitely not the complete picture. You know what I mean...probably better than I do.


So, I suppose I'm really asking for help direction-wise. (cute). I don't know where to go from here. I figure maybe you guys could help me out. I'm pretty young...15 ^^. And I still have a few questions about well, Messianic Judaism and some of the teachings of Paul in particular (of course) - or what I was always taught were his teachings (it seems so complex when it comes to him)...but anyway, none of those exact questions are popping into my head right now, unfortunately. But they are there. And confusing. And I think I'm beginning to ramble, so I'll stop now. Bet you're glad. But...any help would be greatly appreciated.


(btw, is it alright for me to post this here? or is there somewhere else i should? i'm a complete newbie...)

Hi Feus. Welcome to CF. Well, I'm not 100% Jewish, just about 1/4, so I can't answer your question, I don't think ? I posted a question on here 3 days ago, and still haven't gotten a reply from a Messianic Jew. Hopefully someone will come along soon and help you out. What's up with the complexity of the Paul problem? Maybe I can help you there. Let me know. Blessings To You, .

 

[Achichem]

Shalom and welcome Feus,

I also come from and wholly and active Catholic family, I as you also at a youger age(older then you given) left my active Catholic faith.

I woudl be happy to answer any questions about Paul(Rabbi Sha'ul) ,I seem to see his letters come up for disscussion a lot around these forums.

I look forward to hearing and trying to help you with your questions.

God bless,
Datsar

 

[BenTsion]

Dear Feus,
Shalom!
I'm so glad to see how G-d's been restoring his Word in the hearts of many Christians these days!

What you feel concerning the Torah is absolutely right! Yeshua didn't do away with it. The Torah is not for salvation, but it can do wonders to our quality of life, it can unlock several blessings upon our lives and it can guide us into living a life of obedience (not because we expect to gain salvation through it, but simply because we love Yeshua, the Holy One of Israel)!

I am a Messianic Jew, but you don't have to be a Jew
in order to be a Messianic - Jews and Gentiles are now
both part of G-d's olive tree!

I'll be more than happy to answer any of your questions.

B'Shem Yeshua HaMashiach (In the Name of Jesus Christ),

Ben Tsion

 

[simchat_torah]

I would like to extend a warm and heart filled welcome to both Feus and Ben Tsion here to the MJ forums.

shalom,
Yafet.

 

[feus]

Wow! Thank you all for responding to me! It was a wonderful, wonderful thing to come home from school and have all these encouraging messages waiting.

By His Grace: Thanks for replying! I'm sorry no one's answered your question. I know how frustrating it is to have questions and have no one to turn to for answers. And I will detail the Paul thing in a bit.
DaTsar: I have a lot of Catholicism in my background I've gone to Catholic schools since kindergarten, but it's kind of strange - there are some issues on which I have no idea where the Catholic Church stands. And I too see that Paul's writings are very controversial - but more later. I look forward to having you try to help with my questions! - and they are coming up, don't worry.
BenTsion: Aww - thanks! Your message truly helped to dissolve some lingering doubts in my mind. And yes...questions...soon!
simchat_torah: Thanks for the welcome! It's very much a pleasure to be here.
Pray4Isrel: You too! Thanks a bunch.

And now, for those elusive questions! And please don't hold my ignorance against me, not that I seriously think you would - what I'm really doing is warning you. I'm trying to eradicate that ignorance right now.

Well, my first question and longest-standing one is: Why did Paul say no one can be righteous when God clearly calls some people righteous? Like Noah and Abraham and Job and...well, the list goes on. I guess I can sort of answer this one, according to Paul's point of view: They were righteous because of their faith, not their actions. But did God say it was because they followed His commandments? I am almost certain He did, but as I have no verses directly from scripture here I can't really support my point...my english teacher would be so disappointed

And the question that follows this one up is obviously: Is everything Paul wrote divinely inspired/infallible? This is one I've had a real hard time with. My youth pastor is a complete Paul buff and was leading our youth group through Romans...that is, until I stopped going a couple of weeks ago. The last time I went we were on chapter 9...eek!

But, if everything that Paul wrote is actually true, then have his teachings just been misinterpreted for hundreds of years? What can he mean but that we no longer have to live under the Law? Maybe I'm just too dense to find any other meaning.

Oh, and if anyone can help me out here with some specific verses, I'd love it. I hate being lazy like this, but I've a horrible time with that stuff...and I should've written the things down I was seeing as I was going through my Bible last night. But I didn't. Ah well, I'm sure some of you have a familiarity with the subject which will make up for my ignorance. I'm so glad to have a place to go to ask these questions. Thanks again for responding!

-feus

 

[Achichem]

Shalom fetus,



I need to keep this first reply quite short, as I have an accounting test tomorrow and I have only attended ½ the classes, and I wish to continue getting 90%. So I figure I should get some studying in.



So consister this a short reply, which sole-purpose is to give you a sample of where I am going with my answers, which gives you the chance to correct me if you feel I am not addressing your question straight on the head.



Now let us begin,



Why did Paul say no one can be righteous when God clearly calls some people righteous?

Well there are a few reasons.

First, He being a ex-Pharisee, knew the danger of think one self righteous

Second, he talking about pure righteousness, without need of cleansing

Third, The context it was in leads one to see it to mean rightousness according to law, not by the eyes or grace of G-d.

Forth, It was Paul writing style to say very bold statements

There are more but I am sure I can give you load of info just off these in my full answer.



But did God say it was because they followed His commandments?

Though it is in great charity, God shows us his love and Grace (favor), God does and has always has asked tasks before he gives them somthing, not that the act will justify them but for reasons of faith.



Think of when Y’shua asks the man to wash his eyes to overcome blindness, is it that washing which make him see? or could not of Y’shua have just touch the man to cure him?

I will explain more in my next reply.



Is everything Paul wrote divinely inspired/infallible?

That is very debatable in these parts and Paul certainly believed they were.



However, it is my belief that Paul is a Rabbi or Teacher, not a great prophet speacking ,as is much of the bible. However, there is no doubt in my mind that he has the Holy Spirit in him, who helps him and inspires the concepts and underling ideas of his teachings.



Is his work infallible?

I would say no, why? Not because anything he says is a lie, or that something is invaluable, but simply because Paul style of writings includes a lot of very bold statements, which are, if taken in isolation pure non-sense.



Of course if I never had an eraser, and a scribe I am sure I would have these same type of outbursts in my letters, even with my best intentions.

So I would say, just make sure what you get from Paul is his real point, and then it is indeed inspired and infallible.



This is one I've had a real hard time with.

That is a good sign, you see what everyone know is there, but few are willing to talk about. Your willingness to explore the teaching and if necessary throw them out because they do not teach what G-d teaches is an admiral quality (thought I assure you, if you do throw them out it will be only for a time till your at the point where you can understand them)



But, if everything that Paul wrote is actually true, then have his teachings just been misinterpreted for hundreds of years?

Paul was, as he says him self all things to all people, his work can really be seen in any light you want it in(not as a whole), on the surface anyway.



There are indeed translational problems with Paul writing (pretty bad ones in some cases), but his message can still be pure even despite this.



The problem with people and Paul is not so much misinterpreted, but that they were and are twisted, clearly and in broad daylight for all to see.



Take for example, the Sabbath Day or all the Holy Days(listed in the Torah as His Holy festivals, Lev. 23);



Was it really Paul who stoped these practices? Sure he states there not as important as “loving the Lord G-d with all you heart and will all your strength”(faith), but name a christian or a messainic who disagrees? And if you do as he says have faith, would you not do what your Master, Father, Lord does and calls good? I think not!or some justify further saying its because he says we are under grace (which just means favor of G-d )



No,paul did not stop them, this belief happened outside Paul, by men wishing these things not to be, making logical arguments why they are not. (Fulfilled,replaced,y'shua rose that day[which BTW does not pan out that clearly]…)



Logical arguments which are in fact are disproved, by actions of Paul, Peter, James... (and action are G-d strongest words)



People want what they want, so who better to use then the words of the letters not focused on such practices, because tehy have a diffrent teaching to adress.





People are people, they use Paul, so its not misinterpretation of Paul, but simply the using of Paul to support outside ideas, a transfer of trust in G-d, to trust in a church (traditions of man).



This is passionate topic of mine, and I look forward to give more evidence to such.



What can he mean but that we no longer have to live under the Law?

This is too complicated to talk in short, but I will try:

The first thing I would have you notice: is how Paul lists works of the flesh, look at these and then ask yourself, are these not the laws?



What he means about the law: you are not judge by dead written law but Living God.

Law has a place and it is not above us.


Paul actually says quite a few times throughout his letters not to take it the way people do at face value, to justify what is already in their minds VIA the traditions of men.
Ie. Romans 3:31,NKJV:Do we then make void [Greek katargeo, meaning 'destroy' or 'abolish'] the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish [Greek histemi, meaning 'erect' or 'make to stand'] the law.



Fundamentally, he saying God wants doers of the law not hears of the law.

 

[Valid Name]

Greetings Feus!

I must say that I am mightely impressed! I can remember what I was doing at your age, and it have nothing to do with The Father!

You ask very good questions as well! I am sorry you had to stop going to your bible study, I must say I can relate. I go with friend to an assembly on Sundays because I enjoy his company and I enjoy talking religion with him. However sitting there listening to some of the things some times makes me want to vomit. I have learned to be patient with him and not enforce any of my beliefs on him. My hope is one day he will have his eyes opened to see the truth.

Be patient with Paul as well. Many things he writes as Peter warns are hard to understand. However the knowledge that he reveals is unreal. Rarely are these apparent on the surface.

DaTsar did a pretty good job in explaining - I will just add one point -

You will be continously told that we are not to live under the law, that we are dead to the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Paul says that we are dead to the Law! Most take this to mean that we are not to live by it. What is a Law then that we are dead to? "You shall not covet." Well, I really can have my cake and eat it too!

Peace and May The Father bless!

Sincerely,
Valid Name

 

[feus]

When you say Paul was talking about pure righteousness without need of cleansing, do you mean that sort of righteousness that you go through your entire life without sinning? And that the need of cleansing is need for repentance? Just wanting some clarification ^^

And then you say: "The context it was in leads one to see it to mean rightousness according to law, not by the eyes or grace of G-d." How do we procure His grace? If it is by faith, then faith in Yeshua as Messiah?

I really like the example of Yeshua asking the man to wash his face to get rid of the blindness. Of course it wasn’t the actual washing that healed him–it was the faith the man had that he could heal him. But which faith is it that healed him: the faith that Yeshua could heal him, or the faith that caused him to actually wash his eyes? Is there a distinction there at all, or am I just making one up? I guess I’m just trying to continue the metaphor and it’s not working too well. I look forward to your explanation.

So...basically, when it comes to Paul, it’s all about the context? I can see that, because it’s easy to take one small thing he said and interpret it to mean something which fits your current...um, opinion very well.

I like this thing you said: "And if you do as he says have faith, would you not do what your Master, Father, Lord does and calls good?" I think I would have to agree on this point. And about being under grace...I don’t understand that, I guess. I suppose a real argument Christians have for this is that we no longer need the Mosaic Law because God wrote it on our hearts instead (isn’t this from a prophecy about the "new covenant" in Isaiah?).

Valid Name: So, would death to the Law mean insensitivity to the Law? That's probably not what you mean, but what did you mean, exactly? (sorry, I'm slow...and confused)

And thanks both of you for your help (very much, you have no idea how cool this is to me) and encouraging comments. I’m so glad I have such an opportunity for growth a mouse click away! lol (btw, hope you did well on your test! And don't worry about it being a short reply, it wasn't by my standards anyway! And I like the direction you're going in. Continue on, please!)

 

[Valid Name]

Greetings Feus,

Happy Sabbath.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by insensitivity to the Torah. By my comment of death to the law; To tell you the truth, I have not made up my mind by what being 'dead to the Torah' means. I have a few ideas, however I do know what it does NOT mean.

Traditional Christianity will tell you it means that there is no reason to follow the Torah anymore. My comment was only to show you what an example of a Law that we are dead to - "thou shall not covet." So then if we apply their logic to this - We would be alloud to covet! Who would actually admit that!

Don't worry about being slow or confused! Things take time. Stick to what you know and more will come.

If I might ask, I am always facinated for some reason by those who are new believers, whether Traditional Christian or not. However those who The Father reveals his Torah to - WOW! It's a whole new level!

I am curious what did The Father reveal to you that made you change how you thought about Torah?

Peace and Blessings,
Valid Name

 

[Achichem]

Shalom,

A hope your Sabbath is going well and your getting in your necessary rest as I know I am,

Well I better get to your questions:
When you say Paul was talking about pure righteousness without need of cleansing, do you mean that sort of righteousness that you go through your entire life without sinning?
Yes, that is a way to say it.

I would have you think of a man earning his own righteousness.
Who is righteous then? Only one, G-d!

And that the need of cleansing is need for repentance?
Yes, turning away from (repentant) is the cleansing. And our new life comes from the only source of life, G-d.
How do we procure His grace?
That is complicated yet simple, "Follow him and live!"

If it is by faith, then faith in Yeshua as Messiah?
Well I would ask what would make you think trust in Yeshua as the messiah would do?
Even the devil and his angels know Yeshua is the messiah, and what he did. they even hear the law and his teachings.
What sets people apart, what makes cleansing is faith!
But what is faith?
Well faith on it own just means to believe in truth.
And in the words of one of my great theological teachers
“The truth is the truth and no lie may lie in it”
So I would then take the one thing that has since the creation of Adam, make G-d smile.
What is faith:

Deuteronomy 6:4-6
"Hear, O, Israel. The LORD our God for he is one LORD.
And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be in your heart."

So I say the answer to what is faith, is not knowing trivial truth, bound by the lies of perception, but the truth in it pure form, faith.
Faith is loving the Lord your God with all heart, with all your strength and with all your soul

But do not forget the next thing our Great Living G-d tell us:
“And you shall carefully teach them to your sons, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.”(Deu. 6:7)

Faith without law is like truth mixing in with a lie, can it be called truth any longer?

or Law without faith is empty law; it is like truth without foundation, it is like admiring the sun with out sight, or the rain without touch!

The easy way to think of this:
Ok let us suppose for a second that a man has the laws on his heart(because he has faith), yet he has never done, nor heard of the laws, nor knows of them, but solely has the laws on my heart.

Ok, now suppose that man asks himself what day shall I keep apart that I may rest?(for the law on his heart tells him he should rest one day)
Well Does he know the answer? He having the law written on my heart knows that a day must be kept, yet not what day. For, if the law was written on my mind, then truly he could answer, but it was written on my heart. So he only knows why not what or how.

Ok now suppose, he sets Wednesday?
And the real day was the Sabbath, would he as Paul writes "establish the law"?Would he be held in contempt?
No, for he has rested, and done so becasue he is following the Lord!
He has kept it by faith, and gained favor with G-d (grace).
He is a doer of the law, because he does the law of faith.
This is like the righteous gentile, of Paul letters. Let us call him Bob.

Yet, now suppose we have a new man that not only has the laws on his heart but has also heard the law, and knows of it. (for he has read his G-d’s own words)

Since he knows the Lord is the source of his faith,and he know when for God said/says("Yeshau is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow") “You shall keep the seventh day holy, for six days shall you labor but on the seven shall you rest (rest definition is for another topic)”.

So now feeling the hearts message to rest, the question is asked: what day shall I keep apart that I may rest?
Now let us say that, his father, also a man who he sees of great faith tell him:
“G-d has called Bob righteous, and Bob a gentile like us, different from the Jews has kept Wednesday as the Sabbath, truly since we are under G-d's favor and not the laws, he shall favor us keeping Bob's day,for Bob was righteous. So we still keep the law in spirit as he did”

So listening to his father, this man keeps then Wednesday, under the "convenient of G-d's Favor".

Is he righteous and Justified by faith as Bob?
Surly not, for The Lord has set seventh day and not the forth, and so his faith is dead, for one cannot love someone and spit in their face.

Remember we are under grace which mean favor of G-d:
And like a judge in a court room, He has a choice:
-He can apply statue law (Faith or Love)
-Or he can enact case law (the written law of God)

Yet since faith does not apply to the decision made, the higher faith law has no effect, so the Sabbath law holds.The case law of the sabbath was made for this situation("law were made for the sinners").

He is simply a hearer not a doer.
Let us call this boy nick.

Now suppose we bring in another fellow, a fellow who hold the oral law even above G-d's law,yet the oral law is based on the written law, and in so has no higharchy of power, he has no faith in G-d, only in the law.
Is this man justified or not?
Simply put, he is Not because he does as Nick.
For, is their faith in his decision to keep the Sabbath?
No, for he keeps the Sabbath as Nick keeps Wednesday, simply cause it was said.
But why then is he wrong, for surly his luck counts for something?
No, because there is no faith the faith statute does kick in, for Sabbath law hangs on faith.

He instead of being saved by the higher statue is convicted by it.

Well let’s us go back to Nick, and let’s say nick does not listen to his father, and keeps the Sabbath?
Then he is justified,for now he uses his faith and is a doer of both laws.
Yet wait, has he now not broken another law, the law to honor ones father?
No, you see as was with Bob and the Sabbath, so to now is nick with the law of honoring his father (he is a doer of the higher faith law.)

Thank the Lord highest for us being under Him, not moral code.

The faith that Yeshua could heal him, or the faith that caused him to actually wash his eyes?

It was both in a way, it was simply the asking. The getting down on his knees and asking, “Lord Lord, Help me”("ask and you shall receive").

Lets take a mother, Why if she asks her boy to take out the garbage, and he takes 1 minutes she gives him $5, which is far more of a reward then what was really earned.
This is because the boys willingness to do the task, the taking of their time to do something asked of them, to do somthing out of love.(if the child knows he getting the money the anlogy goes down the tube, but neither really does the blind man, for he did not know yehsua would heal him, only he could)

She wishes to give the boy the $5 before hand, but feels give it to you without reasons will only promote the temptation of taking advantage, so instead she shows him love by making him do the task.

So...basically, when it comes to Paul, it’s all about the context?
Yes, but remember it more then just Pauline context, it's biblical context.

For remember the Holy Spirit is who was showing these ideas.The same Holy Spirit who spoke from all the prophets from Moses to John the Baptist.

I don’t understand that, I guess. I suppose a real argument Christians have for this is that we no longer need the Mosaic Law because God wrote it on our hearts instead


I understand your frustration, what you must see is what most Christian do not.

“Paul never said we are now under grace, but that we always were under grace.”
Jesus explains that many times, just look up his teaching involving Pharisee.

Being under law means: to be judge by the law
Being under grace means: to be judged by G-d

Do you want a big post, or do you just want to ask specific questions and have me answer them? Do you want me to include more biblical evidence?

If there is any NT teaching your still not quite getting please just ask, by either explaining the topic or giving some coordinates

Shalom,
DaTsar

 

[feus]

Valid Name: Well, by insensitivity (it may not have been the best choice of words), I really meant...oh, ignorance/avoidance of.

And I know what you mean. It's sort of like this: "the Ten Commandments are alright, most of them anyway, but pork and all that...yeah, not so important." That's the view. Sometimes you wonder, you know, what's the dividing line? My idea of sin and another's might be completely different (on a specific issue, especially). I think it's a matter of opinion, and that's where the problem begins, when we start taking things into our own hands - "leaning on our own understanding."

Well, I found these forums quite a while ago, actually. At the time I was very into the Creationism/Evolution debate, so I spent a lot of time just reading stuff about that (yes, I'm one of those lurking people). Then I lost interest for a long while, and a few weeks or so ago I came back and was just browsing through all the forums.

I saw 'Messianic Judaism' and it piqued my interest mainly because my youth pastor had mentioned it before. You see, my friend had asked whether Jews were saved, and he said that yes, some were, and he told us about MJism. Now, don't get him wrong - I love him, he's one of the nicest people I know - but...well, this isn't really relevant, is it?

Anyway, I looked at a few of the posts and was sort of...well, shocked really. After all, it was so different from the things I believed so steadfastly at the time. I probably would've left off and forgotten about it - banished it from my mind, you know - if a little seed of doubt about certain things I'd been taught hadn't already been planted in my mind (which was essentially my question post). So, I went from shock to casual curiosity to intense curiosity, and now here I am, somewhere beyond curiosity but still unsure of myself! Although I think I am growing closer to the truth day by day.

And you are helping me. Thanks! But now you've gone and made me curious as to your own story!

DaTsar: So...it is impossible for us to earn our righteousness by following the Law alone. And yes, I see that faith in Yeshua as Messiah is not enough - just like belief in G-d is not enough, because even Satan believes that! It's just, you know, a basic belief of the Christianity with which I am most familiar (which would be fundamentalism, I suppose), that as long as you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior it's all good forever!

On faith:

So the denial of the Law (that we should follow it) is really a lie, and truthful faith with that untruthful denial cannot be truthful anymore?

Ok...my brain is really working right now, which is a good thing. The analogy of the court case is very good food for thought. When we do not know the Law, our faith in - the Law written on ours hearts? - is enough. But to know of the Law yet not follow it is really the problem here. So, what would be an example of someone who has the faith but not the actual letter of the Law? Christians in the Dark Ages, maybe? Bibles were not household books at that time, definitely, but people still had faith that they were true. Granted, their beliefs were little more than what they were told by their bishop, or priest, but as they had no opportunity to search for the truth themselves, this really cannot be held against them. Or the Indians who lived in the Americas before the time of Columbus. Just thinking out loud here...

Hmm...so, to sum it all up, to follow the Law written on our hearts is only good enough when we don't have the actual Law to follow? I think I'm understanding! It's such a simple concept, but look at all the way I had to go

I don't, however, understand why there was no faith in Nick's decision to keep Wednesday as the Sabbath. I guess I just don't know enough about Nick. Why does he follow his father's instruction? Supposing it is because he has faith in the Law that you're supposed to honor your father and mother, and he has no understanding of the hierarchy of the Law. Does he have faith still, then?

However, assuming he did it just because his dad said and that was all the reason he had, then I can agree that there was no faith involved on his own part, and plus he is not following the actual Law! So he loses on both counts. Which was...your point.

Here's something you said: "She wishes to give the boy the $5 before hand, but feels give it to you without reasons will only promote the temptation of taking advantage, so instead she shows him love by making him do the task." Ah! So the $5 is obviously grace, and the love that is shown in making him do the task...is really to show that grace is a gift given because we cannot be justified merely by following the Law? Am I getting this right?

You said, "Yes, but remember it more then just Pauline context, it's biblical context." Very good point, and I will certainly keep it in mind!

So I see the distinction between being under Law and being under grace...but just the fact that we are under grace is no reason to suppose we are still exempt from the Law. And to be under grace is to have faith?

Whee! It's coming together! This is fun.

Hmm...another thing in the New Testament that is kind of, well, on my mind right now is in Matthew 12, which we discussed in Morality class today. I'm not saying that Yeshua goes against the Law here, but what is he saying? Is it about the hierarchy of the Law? As in: hunger rates higher than not harvesting wheat on the Sabbath? And as for the second part (9-14), well, love for your brother is second only to love for G-d! And he says he is lord even of the Sabbath. I suppose I would just like some, um, clarification.

I'm still feasting on what you've given me so far (thank you), so there is hardly room in my mind for other issues. A big post would be nice, but I'd hate to be selfish and demand that of you, besides, I think right now if I asked for that it would be extremely vague. But if I have specific questions or general ones, then they will definitely pop up. What I ought to do is start making little notes when I don't understand something.

But I am beginning to get tired, so I think I will indeed go and get my rest.

Happy Sabbath to you both.

-feus

 

[BenTsion]

Simchat Torah,
Thanks for the warm welcome! Shalom!

Feus,
Boy, you sure don't waste any time... already asking the tough ones! ;-)

You answered your own question here. Rav. Sha'ul clearly shows that righteousness comes through faith.
How could Abraham be called righteous through law-observance when there was no Torah yet? Same goes
for Noah.

You see, Abraham and Noah both trusted G-d for their deliverance, and the promise of redemption.

If you look at the big picture of Rav. Sha'ul's letters, you'll see that he makes a clear case for faith vs. law-observance for salvation.

As for his words, yes, all of them were divinely inspired. At least, mainstream messianic jews believe so. Kephas (the apostle Peter) clearly writes about that.

It is a very dangerous thing to question the inspiration of Scriptures when we come across something that is hard to understand and/or explain. Best is to ask for the Ruah HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) to help you understand it, and seek the help of other believers.

B'Shem Yeshua,
Ben Tsion

 

[Achichem]

Shalom,

Ok...my brain is really working right now, which is a good thing. The analogy of the court case is very good food for thought. When we do not know the Law, our faith in - the Law written on ours hearts? - is enough. But to know of the Law yet not follow it is really the problem here. So, what would be an example of someone who has the faith but not the actual letter of the Law? Christians in the Dark Ages, maybe? Bibles were not household books at that time, definitely, but people still had faith that they were true. Granted, their beliefs were little more than what they were told by their bishop, or priest, but as they had no opportunity to search for the truth themselves, this really cannot be held against them. Or the Indians who lived in the Americas before the time of Columbus. Just thinking out loud here...

Yes that is exactly it,
However keep in mind Indians did not know God, and in so could not love him with all their heart and with all their soul. So they are not in the category of faith(however see the bottom for imformation of what goign to happen to them), however you defiantly on the right thought track.

I don't, however, understand why there was no faith in Nick's decision to keep Wednesday as the Sabbath. I guess I just don't know enough about Nick. Why does he follow his father's instruction? Supposing it is because he has faith in the Law that you're supposed to honor your father and mother, and he has no understanding of the hierarchy of the Law. Does he have faith still, then?

I first must say I love that you asked this, this is such a great question.

Why does he follow his father's instruction?
A good question, one I never really thought about, however I can still give you an answer.

Supposing it is because he has faith in the Law that you're supposed to honor your father and mother, and he has no understanding of the hierarchy of the Law. Does he have faith still, then?
First thing I should point out is that, remember Nick has faith in G-d
,that is why he has the law written on his heart. So it not a question of having faith but using faith, however if he failed to use faith then his faith is lost.

Now to the question, if it had been indeed to honor the command of the father, he would still be guilty, for faith is to G-d first, always and forever, He is your highest father. How do I know this? The words of Yeshua:

Matthew 10:34-42
Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword.
For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
And a man's foes shall be those of his own household.
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.
He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.
He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he who receives a just one in the name of a just one will receive a just one's reward.
And whoever shall give to one of these little ones a cup of cold water to drink, only in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, He shall in no way lose his reward.

Faith is loving the lord with all your heart and with all your soul means you love him more then anything, even your earthly father.

However your compassion for this man is a great sign, important and highly admirable.

But remember also this,

Matthew 22:36-38
Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?
Yeshua said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and greatest commandment.

Torah-Deuteronomy 32:6
Do you thus give back to LORD, Oh foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father who bought you? Has He not made you and established you?

God’s way must be kept! Even if that means going against ones earthly father(it should however be avoided), for the way of your heavenly and most high father.

However, assuming he did it just because his dad said and that was all the reason he had, then I can agree that there was no faith involved on his own part, and plus he is not following the actual Law! So he loses on both counts. Which was...your point.
My point was taking the word of a man and logic of a man, instead of the logic of the living G-d.


Ah! So the $5 is obviously grace, and the love that is shown in making him do the task...is really to show that grace is a gift given because we cannot be justified merely by following the Law? Am I getting this right?
Yes, He loves the child before, but he gives him grace not for the task, but asks the task for graces (loves) sake.

but just the fact that we are under grace is no reason to suppose we are still exempt from the Law. And to be under grace is to have faith?
Yup, G-d really is quite simple isn’t He,

Whee! It's coming together! This is fun.
I know

Hmm...another thing in the New Testament that is kind of, well, on my mind right now is in Matthew 12
I'm not saying that Yeshua goes against the Law here, but what is he saying? Is it about the hierarchy of the Law?
Yes, that was the point of his response. However the reason to your wonder and uneasy in this area is due to a different reason.
You see his act, did not actually need the higher law to intervene, the only reason he responded that way was to point out the hypocritical attitudes of the Pharisee, not because they need the same higher law to apply. You see, Yeshua and his disciples did nothing Wrong, even by the standers of the Sabbath day law.

This is because what it means to rest,

The Pharisee, and I am sure teacher you are familiar with, try to teach that rest meant/means to stop physical labor.

However, that answer brings up a troubling question, so as a coping strategy is made. That is that rest is stopping your normal interaction with the environment.

So then you focus on rest (the result can be see in Pharisee law)

However when G-d said rest he meant nothing of the sort.

To demonstrate I will retrieve the law from the Ten Commandments.

“You shall do your work six days, and on the seventh day you shall rest, so that your ox and your *** may rest, and the son of your handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.”

Now, I ask: if your ox must rest, by commencing from interaction with his environment, what then should you tie your ox to a pull, that he may rest? Or a stranger, would G-d ask you to restrain him from work? For surly it is not in your power to stop his interaction with things? To tell you the truth the only way to stop then working by this definition is simply to die, for even in sleep you may role oven and hence work.

Yet G-d is not surly asking us to die, for he himself kept the Sabbath:

Gen 2:2; “And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made. And He rested on the seventh day from all His work, which He had made.”

Watch closely to something He said “His work which he has made”, why is that important? Cause what did he make? That right, all the systems of the earth.

Well then he either meant two things by rest:
-Rest from all interaction with the environment
or
-Rest from worldly matters

Well as we have just discussed; it cannot be the first because by so he would be commanding us to die every seventh day, something a living G-d can’t even do himself.

So then, it must be Rest from worldly matters.
But before exploring this further, does this definition fit the examples?

Num. 15:32;“And while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.
And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation.
And they put him under guard because it had not been clearly said what should be done to him.
And the LORD said to Moses, The man shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”

Well, Yes, this is because stick gathering is something to be done in preparation. It is a building up of. This is something one would not do at the end of a project, but during or at the beginning. But the Sabbath is the end, and the rest. This is a worldly task, a thing to be done for work reasons, not for refreshing reasons.

However, still so if we are to rest from world things, then what should we be awake to?
The answer, rest:

Matthew 11:29; “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart; and you will find rest for your souls.”

Psalm 37:7 “Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him. Don't fret because of him who prospers in his way, because of the man who makes wicked plots happen.”

The Sabbath is to rest of worldly things, and seek rest in G-d.

Is eating off a tree, worldly? It could be debated, but I call it living.

What to know more, here is a link to an online booklet on the subject of the Sabbath:
http://www.ucg.org/booklets/SS/

A paper on some thoughts on Sabbath principles in today’s world:
http://cgca.net/ucg/ministerial/papers/SabbathObservance.pdf

I define what is rest as, keep it special, keep it apart, keep it on G-d, avoid regular weekly routines, run no errands, or trivial tasks.

However, to some people that is over the line…

Ultimately, I say do your research and do not think that to keep the Sabbath you just start refraining from specific works. For even rest can be worldly if the focus is not on G-d.

I hope that helps.

Now I have few questions for you:

Now, I want you to focus on the thinking you are, as understanding Faith and grace is the corner stone of Christ.

However, if you’re interested, there are more points skewed by the traditions of man in mainstream Christianity.

If you interest, feel free to ask about:
-Heaven and Hell v. what the bible says happen after death.
-What happen to people who never knew Christ/G-d?
-Christian Holidays really the holidays of Christ?
-G-d’s Plan
Shalom,
Datsar

 

[feus]

BenTsion: You say, "How could Abraham be called righteous through law-observance when there was no Torah yet? Same goes for Noah."

Duh! Wow, I completely didn't even think of that

And also you say, "It is a very dangerous thing to question the inspiration of Scriptures when we come across something that is hard to understand and/or explain. Best is to ask for the Ruah HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) to help you understand it, and seek the help of other believers."


It is a good thing I found cf.net then! But thank you, and I will keep that in mind. And what you say about faith vs. Law-observance really does help me get the big picture - that faith is what truly saves us (and this is at the end of the next paragraph).


DaTsar: I like this: "First thing I should point out is that, remember Nick has faith in G-d, that is why he has the law written on his heart. So it not a question of having faith but using faith, however if he failed to use faith then his faith is lost." *click* Using faith…by putting his faith in his father/Bob rather than G-d it really doesn’t count as faith anymore. I see! That really is the central point of this discussion, isn’t it? That faith is what saves, not Law, but how is it that Law-observance and faith are mutually exclusive? They're really not except where you want them to be.

But...where does Yeshua fit in? I almost can’t believe I just asked that, but I, um, need clarification ^^ (and what you said at the end made me think of this, too). Was it to teach us these things? You see, I was always taught that he came and died so that our sins might be forgiven (that our sins were nailed to the cross with him, and are forgiven if we accept that), but I’m not quite sure if I believe or disbelieve that right now. Another thing I’ve been told is that there had to be somebody who was perfect so that the doors of heaven would be open (but that was a long time ago). So what was the reason?

And about the Sabbath, I am beginning to understand. Anotherverse that supports your point is Lev. 23:3, "There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to HaShem." A Sabbath to HaShem...so really a day set apart from the ordinary routine to honor and seek rest in G-d, as opposed to a day sitting in your house doing absolutely nothing. It is making sense! And thank you, btw, for the links; I will definitely be reading them.

Now, you had some interesting potential questions:

-Heaven and Hell v. what the bible says happen after death.
This one would be interesting to look at, certainly, but I think I will tuck it away for a later time

What happen to people who never knew Christ/G-d?
I am kind of curious to know what the Bible is truly saying on this, because it's one of the main teachings of fundamentalist Christianity that without Jesus, you're a goner and no arguing! But is this really what he taught?

-Christian Holidays really the holidays of Christ?
Ah! This one is very timely - or at least it seems timely to me, because I just had to submit three story ideas to our school's newspaper for a special Christmas issue, and one of these was exactly that question! I know Dec. 25 isn't his actual birthday, and also that a lot of the Christmas customs we have are definitely pagan! But the real point to argue is: does that really matter? As long as we are celebrating his birth, does it really matter that it happens to fall on a pagan holiday, or that the church leaders a long time ago arranged it specifically that way? Yes or no?

-G-d’s Plan
o.o Not quite sure exactly what you're referring to here, but is it predestination? I am very curious about this, probably more so than I am about the other three questions. Did G-d plan out every minute detail of our lives before creation even, or do we actually have a say in some things? Is there a limit to what is predestined, if anything is at all? Does G-d truly live "outside time" or does He go along with it like we do?
-feus

 

[Valid Name]

Greetings Feus!

I know that you are talking to DaTsar right now, however I thought I would intject a couple of ideas here.

You asked where does Yeshua fit? I understand!

Let's play a 'let's assume game.' Let's assume that the Torah is physical. Keep the sabbath, keep the food laws. Okay got it. Go ahead and have NO FAITH and keep them. You would be righteous correct? Now, what if I told you that you did not HAVE TO FOLLOW them, and you could STILL BE RIGHTEOUS? How is that? Now, breaking the sabbath is a sin - ok. If you sin, what do you have to do? Bring a sacrifice and be forgiven (thinking in the physical). So you bring your sacrifice after breaking ALL the commands, and you are forgiven! Imagine if you had HERDS of Lambs and goats! You could sin ALL YOU WANT, and KEEP TORAH! You would have a substitutional convering for all your sins! Sin, sacrifice, be forgiven!

Now, we know that the Torah is NOT physical, it is SPIRITUAL! (Romans 7:14)

So, would you consider that fair to go and break a command with the intentions of just giving a sacrifice? Of course not, and either does The Father:

Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination, How much more when he brings it with evil intent.

So, was it the sacrifice that The Father really was concerned with? If so, would not the Torah be Physical, and all you had to do was shed blood and be fogiven? How easy!

Now think about it like this - You sin, so that means that YOU must go and sacrifice. You have to put an innocent animal to death. Imagine doing that! Imagine doing that to your dog (if you have one). Would you not feel bad? Would you want to do that again so you can just go sin again? Of course not! You would want to STAY AWAY FROM SIN! Who wants to kill anything?

I will post more later, but try thinking of Messiah in this way. Is he not OUR Sacrifice?

Peace,
Valid Name

 

[Achichem]

But the real point to argue is: does that really matter? As long as we are celebrating his birth, does it really matter that it happens to fall on a pagan holiday, or that the church leaders a long time ago arranged it specifically that way? Yes or no?
Yes,It matters.
It wouldn’t matter if it were up to me I assure you, but G-d talks very specifically on this issue, and tell us to very specifically not to do this, for very good reasons.

Deuteronomy 12: 26-32, NKJV:
"When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.' You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
"Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it

I do not think you can get any clear then that,but that is not the only place similar thing are said.
If you give to G-d a present to which G-d himself has told you He hates, what have you really given him?

Now it time to do some mingling of questions

Did G-d plan out every minute detail of our lives before creation even, or do we actually have a say in some things?
Well that was not exactly what I meant by God’s Plan,
What I meant was he general plan for mankind set out since the beginning.

In another thread perhaps, I'd be happy to talk about my beliefs on the issue, but we should stick to issue that don't invole too much personal belief.

Does G-d truly live "outside time" or does He go along with it like we do?
Yes, without doubt,
Time actually proves the existence of higher power outside time and space, the need for a creator.
Peter said:

2 Peter 3:8;
But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So let me first address the thing I wish to talk about with the holy days of God:


G-d called a set a holy days each years His

Lev. 23:2;
Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, the feasts of LORD, which you shall proclaim, holy convocations, even these are My Feasts

And for every feast there must be a reason! Because these are G-d, it must be for Godly reasons. We learn why the first three (first fruits) meant clearly and without controversy.

Passover – Yeshua death on the cross
Feast of unleavened bread – Time of forgiveness of sin
Feast of Pentecost – giving of the sprit

And these where the first fruits festivals, coming at the time of the first smaller harvest season in Israel. Despite the explanation given in Paul/Hebrew letters, I believe that the first fruits are all those who join with Yeshua in this lifetime, the saints.

The rest of the feast our;
Feast of Trumpets – Coming of the Messiah a second time
Feast of Atonement – Binding of the devil and the blame being laid
Feast of Tabernacles –Living with God
Last Great Day –New beginning (eighth day)

Well now my first question is, if you are to keep Christmas yet not G-d’s Holy Feasts is there a problem?

I am kind of curious to know what the Bible is truly saying on this, because it's one of the main teachings of fundamentalist Christianity that without Jesus, you're a goner and no arguing! But is this really what he taught?
The interesting part here is, first we know everyone gets resurrected, and we know at the same time.

We also know they are going to be judged, but of course now the sin is taken away VIA Passover, and the blame VIA day of atonement. They get their chance at salvation.

It is significant to note, that the second round of feast day are the harvest feast day, when Israelites take in their bigger of the two harvests.

This judgment as a process is also hinted quite a few times in both prophecy and Yeshua teachings.
Where does Yeshua fit in?
Valid Name had an excellent explanation.

So I will just add to it with a list and you can ask question from there.

Yeshua came to:
-Begin G-d significant part of the plan for mankind
-Set the teachings strait
-To be the sacrifice since the beginning of time, for the forgiveness of sin.
-Sanctify the first fruits

Well I think I will leave it there, as I kind of want to keep it together and not go on too many tangents, so I will just let you ask so more questions so I can focus.

Shalom,
Datsar

BTW:
The one you want to leave for latter is the only one I have a pre-post on, would you know it,

 

[feus]

ValidName: No worries! Your interjection was wonderful. Feel free to continue interjecting, because it can only help

Let's play a 'let's assume game.' Let's assume that the Torah is physical. Keep the sabbath, keep the food laws. Okay got it. Go ahead and have NO FAITH and keep them. You would be righteous correct? Now, what if I told you that you did not HAVE TO FOLLOW them, and you could STILL BE RIGHTEOUS? How is that? Now, breaking the sabbath is a sin - ok. If you sin, what do you have to do? Bring a sacrifice and be forgiven (thinking in the physical). So you bring your sacrifice after breaking ALL the commands, and you are forgiven! Imagine if you had HERDS of Lambs and goats! You could sin ALL YOU WANT, and KEEP TORAH! You would have a substitutional convering for all your sins! Sin, sacrifice, be forgiven!

Now, we know that the Torah is NOT physical, it is SPIRITUAL! (Romans 7:14)

So, would you consider that fair to go and break a command with the intentions of just giving a sacrifice?

Ah! It's like thinking: "Ok, well, I'll be mean to this person right now because I'm in a bad mood, but I'll be sorry later so it's ok." Big no-no! (and I am guilty of that). However, what you say later..."Imagine doing that to your dog (if you have one). Would you not feel bad? Would you want to do that again so you can just go sin again? Of course not! You would want to STAY AWAY FROM SIN! Who wants to kill anything?" But shouldn't my motive for staying away from sin be more than "I don't want to kill my dog"? (and yes, I do have a dog - her name is Cobe and it gives me chills to even think about killing her!) But if you're saying...we should stay away from sin because we don't want to sacrific Yeshua again, um...I don't really understand :/ (see below)

"Is he not OUR Sacrifice?"

Erm...like in Hebrews? Does that mean we no longer need to make actual animal sacrifices?

So, let me try to get this straight: Yeshua is our sacrifice, and so our sins are forgiven, and the blame for those sins is taken away when we are repentant?

But is he the sacrifice for all people or just those who live after his death? (although I guess I know the answer) And is it impossible for our sins to be forgiven without this sacrifice?

DaTsar:

"If you give to G-d a present to which G-d himself has told you He hates, what have you really given him?"

Nothing good, obviously. And I rather agree that yes, it does matter...but it would be scary to tell my family that, because that would mean telling them why it matters. And I don't want to tell them that until I fully understand (which is what I am trying to do right now, and not just about the Christmas thing, but - everything! *waves hand around vaguely* you know...).

Also: "Well now my first question is, if you are to keep Christmas yet not G-d’s Holy Feasts is there a problem?" Yes. But...see above. I don't know! I just don't know what to do...

What I meant was he general plan for mankind set out since the beginning.

In another thread perhaps, I'd be happy to talk about my beliefs on the issue, but we should stick to issue that don't invole too much personal belief.

Alright. ^^

"Time actually proves the existence of higher power outside time and space, the need for a creator."

o.o According to who? I'm not doubting it, but I guess I don't really understand. And if we followed this line of reasoning, wouldn't it be apparent that since a creator exists, it would prove that there must be an even higher power?

We learn why the first three (first fruits) meant clearly and without controversy.

Passover – Yeshua death on the cross
Feast of unleavened bread – Time of forgiveness of sin
Feast of Pentecost – giving of the sprit

Where do we learn this? Because you said we learn clearly, but, well, how? Did I miss something? Also, the other feasts and their reasons you mentioned - what Scripture would you use to support all these?

"The interesting part here is, first we know everyone gets resurrected, and we know at the same time."

Again, how do we know this? I'm not questioning its truthfulness, I just...don't want to accept these things without...um, support from Scripture ^^.

"We also know they are going to be judged, but of course now the sin is taken away VIA Passover, and the blame VIA day of atonement. They get their chance at salvation."

Are you talking about the actual feasts here, or something bigger that the feasts symbolize? :o I'm sorry, I just need everything spelled out for me because I sometimes have a hard time understanding.

One of those things you said Yeshua came to do - "Sanctify the first fruits" - are these the three feasts we talked about? And were they not already holy? Did he sanctify them by...giving them their deeper meaning?

Alright, to sum it all up: I don't want to go off on a tangent, either . And I think I understand the Torah now in connection to faith (thanks guys). So, how about we focus on these things:

1. Yeshua and his connection to the feasts mentioned, especially in being a sacrifice.

2. G-d's being outside time.

Because most of my confusement (word? yes? oh well...) is about those two issues. And for both of those, I have questions throughout my unorganized post. Also I know I can be difficult sometimes, but I'm so thankful you're taking the time to help me better my understanding.

"The one you want to leave for latter is the only one I have a pre-post on, would you know it"

lol! I'm good

-feus

 

[Henaynei]

But the real point to argue is: does that really matter? As long as we are celebrating his birth, does it really matter that it happens to fall on a pagan holiday, or that the church leaders a long time ago arranged it specifically that way? Yes or no?

Why should we celebrate His "birth" at all?? He existed long before His "birth." And redemption started long before His "birth."

For you and me it can be argued that birth, or at least conception, at the genesis of our existance. This is just not so with Yeshua.

Nowhere in scripture are any birthday celebrations depicted as godly or even encouraged.

Why is it even appropiate to "celebrate" His "birth?"

 

[feus]

Why should we celebrate His "birth" at all?? He existed long before His "birth." And redemption started long before His "birth."

For you and me it can be argued that birth, or at least conception, at the genesis of our existance. This is just not so with Yeshua.

That's a good point! My theology teacher told me that Yeshua only gradually grew to understand himself and his mission, but if he existed before his earthly birth then the only way this can be true is if he suddenly forgot everything, which I asked him about but he called me a "literalist". o.o Anyway, I guess I just didn't connect that thought to Christmas...but it is yet another reason to not celebrate it! They're popping up all over the place...

Also this: "Nowhere in scripture are any birthday celebrations depicted as godly or even encouraged."

Wow! Birthday parties and all that are such an integral part of our culture that I've never even thought about it...but now you mention it, you're right! I can't recall a single occasion where a birthday is celebrated. I wonder where we got this custom, anyway?

Thank you! This really helps me out