Hi/Bye

[Nihilist Virus]

Maybe that's how it should be, but as it stands, it has a lot of other values for beings like us! For example, a lot of us value achievement, and belief systems offer niches for this good.


Right. In analytic circles this is called an unjustified belief. But we also want to say that any explanation will ultimately bottom out in something basic or fundamental: In other words, no matter what, eventually we'll stop getting an answer to, "what explains that?"

So we find ourselves somewhere in the middle. We want an account that's elegant enough, coherent enough, etc. while expecting to eventually run into some basic or fundamental stuff.

The tricky part is figuring out what enough is!

Are you saying that Christianity explains something about reality?

 

[Sistrin]

You are saying that Christianity is a religion of love. In reality I see it expressed with hate. Muslims say that Islam is a religion of peace. In reality I see it as a religion of violence.

Hate as defined by you.

You are advancing a false equivalency. Islam is demonstrably a religion permeated with and advanced by violence. The evidence to support that fact is legion, and no effort is made by practitioners of Islam to hide it.

To date your evidence Christianity is a religion of hate amounts to nothing more than your claim of being treated harshly on an internet forum.

And then you ask me why I compare the two.

I know why you compare the two.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

How do you see Christianity as a religion of hate? Can you give me some examples?

Also, I answered a question of yours and you have not yet responded to my answer.

Please see post #125

I was doing you a great courtesy by not answering because I've destroyed that response so many times.

God is not the law. Before I can reply to that portion I'd need to know what you are even talking about.

But you say that he cannot violate the law and then go on to say that certain laws, like the one I cited, are just for us humans. Could you tell me, then, a single law that he is actually subject to? If not, then your claim that he cannot break the law is deceptive and tautologous.

And I can only assume you're kidding about asking for examples of hateful Christians.

 

[Noxot]

You aren't telling me the meaning of it, you are just telling me that it is the same as other symbols.

sometimes when you can understand one narrative symbol you can see it in others easier. it is all about becoming what you are. if good things die in you then something will take their place and so there are nations and people and some who live on holy land that should and some that should not. so it speaks of being a spirit and getting out of hell and refining into heaven which could in this world be called "the good".

they are descriptions of things that must occur in the soul if one wishes to be near to God and of the failures of some souls to do such and the consequences of their decisions. they all describe spiritual experiences of life. the virgins end up going into the new jerusalem and becoming members of heaven. each of their souls add onto heaven like adding heaven onto heaven so it is a great rejoicing in that place because of all the consolation of minds existing with God the infinite mind forever. and so they are symbols which reflect spiritual processes in a soul of a more fleshly nature which is a spiritual baby towards the goal of the liberty of the Son of God who is the mature spirit restored unto God.

 

[Cappadocious]

Are you saying that Christianity explains something about reality?

Rather, I was trying to figure out where you, NV, draw the line between blind faith, on the one hand, and a belief with the right sort of account, on the other hand. People do it in different ways.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

So then because Hitler killed gays and gyspys along with Jews, he did not attempt genocide either?

Jesus said that if the miracles performed in Israel's towns had been performed in Sodom, they would have repented. And that Sodom would rise in judgement over Israel. God loves us all, but grace was limited and increased after the resurrection greatly, and will be again. Sodom only had Lot and Abraham. They went their full course from opportunity to destruction. But they could have had more opportunity.

God loved the Canaanites, and Hitler hated people, the supposed problem to German health and prosperity. He tried to kill all of the race of German Jews. That is murder of a race, and he tried to kill all the gypsies and JWs and gays as well, he hated them. God loved Canaan and the straggler Hebrews and Phoenicians among them, but they were doing evil, and to each new generation, and had opportunity to repent, they were justly judged and executed.

The idols of Canaan were lethal and even tripped Israel generations later. They were against spiritual life. God chose Israel not only for Israel but for Ashkenaz and all others as well. Canaan could have chosen to bless Israel and be hospitable.

Israel was then an instrument of judgement and later salvation. We needed them. Now without Christ, we would not have morality and justice and concern about genocide.

 

[com7fy8]

But then why not just pick hedonism if you want the belief system that is most gratifying?

Pleasure is not as gratifying as learning how to love. And God's love has better quality of pleasure, than any physical sensation I have ever experienced, and better than I have tried to make myself become and feel by means of meditation and self discipline.

Are you saying that Christianity explains something about reality?

We offer explanation. But our explanation might not meet your standards.

One item which atheists seem to not accept is how there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). Ones do not want to accept that there is the spirit of evil, of selfishness, which "works" people to become how they are evil and selfish and do what they do. Their "lusts of their hearts" (Romans 1:18-32) work very hard to drive people to go after pleasure which does not truly gratify > enough is never enough. But God satisfies us in His love (Hebrews 13:5) which has Heaven's own quality of pleasantness of rest.

Those "lusts" are of the heart > they are not physical and organic. Because our hearts are spiritual with our hearts' desires and preferences. And God does not dominate and drive us to go after pleasure. He first will satisfy us, then guide us, in His own peace > Colossians 3:15 < I find it interesting how ones claim they have left "Christianity" . . . seeing how Christianity includes how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us in His own peace, as part of Christianity. This is not an intellectual item, but a reality included.

Plus, in God's love (Romans 5:5) we enjoy how His almighty power keeps us safe from cruel and tormenting things such as boredom and loneliness, frustration, nasty angry reacting, arguing and complaining, bitterness, unforgiveness, and hurts which won't go away. He keeps us safe from torments, including dominating and dictatorial lusts for pleasures. Only God's love gets rid of personality torments which are spiritually rooted in fear >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

But if people are living in "the spirit of the world" (1 Corinthians 2:12), they can have deep-down, low-down nasty rotting (2 Timothy 3:13) stuff witch is so lousy feeling, that they are desperate to get some pleasure or excitement in order to feel something nicer than their own mess of sin. But only God is able to deliver us "from the power of Satan to God" (Acts 26:18), and correct (Hebrews 12:4-11) and heal (James 5:16) and cure us (1 John 4:17) to become like Jesus (Galatians 4:19), instead.

Then we are even pleasing to God our Father, instead of only trying to please our own selves

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

I offer how the "beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit" is in God's own love, and this beauty of God's gentle and quiet love is "incorruptible", meaning this has God's own almighty power shared with us so things of Satan's nasty spirit can not mess with us . . . as much as we have grown and matured in God's love.

So, Nihil, as much as we are deeply gentle and quiet in God's love, we enjoy His almighty protection against any and all sorts of personality torments. But I understand that atheists do not believe that our personality with its ways and desires is spiritual in existence. But there is a reason why scientists have not been able to change a personality, by means of physical substances and talking and physical actions. You can't cure a spiritual trouble or identity problem, by means of what is only physical. Ones have said they know they can not cure a psychiatric problem by means of medications; I have read this in a secular mental health newsletter, I think it was . . . not that I did not already know this

Our Apostle Peter says we need to have "the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit", and Jesus says, "I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls," in Matthew 11:28-30. So, I see how becoming gentle and quiet is basically the same as becoming how Jesus is gentle and humble. By becoming gentle and quiet in God's love curing our nature, we have what is "incorruptible" against soul tormenting things, and so we have "rest for your souls".

Plus, instead of only trying to please ourselves and make ourselves feel good, we even become pleasing to God, Himself, in this "gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." This makes us like Jesus who is so pleasing to our Heavenly Father.

So, this is part of what I have discovered to be Christianity and basic Bible. I notice that ones who say they have left "Christianity" don't seem to talk much about this being what they have left.

 

[JacksBratt]

And I can only assume you're kidding about asking for examples of hateful Christians.

Ok, See how you do double speak here? You make the statement:

"You are saying that Christianity is a religion of love. In reality I see it expressed with hate."

In this statement you are addressing the "Religion of Christianity"

Then you are sarcastic to me regarding "examples of "hateful Christians"

You make a statement about the religion and then slam the people.

Gather any group of humans, any... electricians, musicians, doctors, teachers, athletes... any group and you will have hateful people. Christianity is no different.
Thing is, Jesus accepts them as they are and so do true Christians.

So, now, I ask again, how is the religion of Christianity a hateful religion?

Please don't use examples of men who used Christianity as a platform to justify their own selfish desires and agendas.

 

[JacksBratt]

I was doing you a great courtesy by not answering because I've destroyed that response so many times.

Please, destroy it again. Enlighten me.

 

[JacksBratt]

Thank you for drafting an in depth response. My purpose for being here, or rather what I'd like to see, is for Christians to either abandon their faith or embrace it.

Do you think the people who are taking the time to argue with you here have embraced their faith?

I think either would be a good thing. Imagine a world with no religion.

Isn't that what Christ exemplified? Christianity is a religion made by man, as a method to worship a savior that taught us that He wants no religion. All religions are man made so, yes, a world without religion would be perfect. This will be what the millennial age is like, when Christ rules for 1000 years. And I guess in eternal life.

Or perhaps imagine a world where Christians dine with sinners and give all they have to minister to the poor - NOT difficult whatsoever. There is no excuse for watching a 70 inch TV while children starve to death around the clock while also professing to be a follower of Christ.

I'm still own a CRT for television so I can comment here. Many people have possessions that they do not need. This is the sin of covertness. However, I think you should talk to the Oprah's and Bill Gates of the world before you attack the working stiff who has a large TV or a boat or a snowmobile and condemn them for having something they enjoy. You have no right to judge what they do or don't give to charity and what percent of their income that represents.

Oprah and Bill Gates could single handedly save many small countries and still have more money than I will even earn in my life.... these people give a large sum of money that is like me giving less than one penny of my savings and everyone pats them on the back.... ffffffft they don't even feel it.

I cannot conceive of a thought that is more laughable.

What is more laughable? Anyone telling anyone else that they are any worse of a human when it comes to being generous or charitable. Especially if it is a backslidden Christian who is trying to justify their turning from the truth of Christ.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

To directly address your OP questions:



Yes, you are. All men are held to the same standard. We fail or chose not to achieve it at different levels. Some fall prey to the ills of the world, some give up, others reject it outright. But the standard is the same for everyone.



I can speak only for myself in regard to how atheist are treated here, but I can guarantee you atheist are not treated harshly because they are not wanted. If they are treated harshly it is because of the assumed superiority inherent in every argument atheist tend to make. As a rule atheist believe they have achieved some higher state of consciousness in regard to religion in general and Christianity in particular. The majority of them believe Christians are idiots. Or at the least they are smarter than any Christian they encounter. When any argument you make stems from those two precepts, you shouldn't be surprised when you encounter a bit of push-back.

So then is it that you disavow 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 as being inspired by the Holy Spirit or do you simply contend that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit but was addressing only those at the church of Corinth and that we need not concern ourselves with that epistle?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

sometimes when you can understand one narrative symbol you can see it in others easier. it is all about becoming what you are. if good things die in you then something will take their place and so there are nations and people and some who live on holy land that should and some that should not. so it speaks of being a spirit and getting out of hell and refining into heaven which could in this world be called "the good".

they are descriptions of things that must occur in the soul if one wishes to be near to God and of the failures of some souls to do such and the consequences of their decisions. they all describe spiritual experiences of life. the virgins end up going into the new jerusalem and becoming members of heaven. each of their souls add onto heaven like adding heaven onto heaven so it is a great rejoicing in that place because of all the consolation of minds existing with God the infinite mind forever. and so they are symbols which reflect spiritual processes in a soul of a more fleshly nature which is a spiritual baby towards the goal of the liberty of the Son of God who is the mature spirit restored unto God.

Fascinating exegesis. And I'm not being sarcastic. So that covers genocide (not that I actually believe you're correct, I just think you did a good job defending your position), now can you please give me satisfactory explanations of why rape seems to be OK in the Bible?

Things like working on the Sabbath are punishable by death, yet if you rape a virgin then your punishment is... pay her father and then marry the woman that you raped??? What does this symbolize?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Rather, I was trying to figure out where you, NV, draw the line between blind faith, on the one hand, and a belief with the right sort of account, on the other hand. People do it in different ways.

Nihilists don't draw that line.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Jesus said that if the miracles performed in Israel's towns had been performed in Sodom, they would have repented. And that Sodom would rise in judgement over Israel. God loves us all, but grace was limited and increased after the resurrection greatly, and will be again. Sodom only had Lot and Abraham. They went their full course from opportunity to destruction. But they could have had more opportunity.

OK...

God loved the Canaanites, and Hitler hated people,

And yet they both gave the same orders, didn't they? Don't you find that a bit odd?

the supposed problem to German health and prosperity. He tried to kill all of the race of German Jews. That is murder of a race, and he tried to kill all the gypsies and JWs and gays as well, he hated them. God loved Canaan and the straggler Hebrews and Phoenicians among them, but they were doing evil, and to each new generation, and had opportunity to repent, they were justly judged and executed.

So God loved people and justly ordered genocide, whereas Hitler hated people and unjustly ordered genocide? So if Hitler actually loved the Jews, his orders of genocide would be good?

The idols of Canaan were lethal and even tripped Israel generations later. They were against spiritual life. God chose Israel not only for Israel but for Ashkenaz and all others as well. Canaan could have chosen to bless Israel and be hospitable.

Why did the Jews worship those false gods? I can't imagine that a single right-wing American Christian would worship another god. Perhaps some would under threat of violence, but even then probably most would not. Yet these Jews did so... why? Why did Solomon, who spoke with God personally and who was granted wishes (one of which was great wisdom), erect idols of false gods? Why on earth would he do that? It almost sounds as if early Judaism has pagan, polytheistic roots or something... almost as if their deity evolved from that of a man in Genesis to that of fire in Exodus, and on and on until the modern version which is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, disembodied mind.

Israel was then an instrument of judgement and later salvation. We needed them. Now without Christ, we would not have morality and justice and concern about genocide.

So what you are saying is that without knowledge of Christ, we would have no knowledge that genocide is wrong?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Fascinating exegesis. And I'm not being sarcastic. So that covers genocide (not that I actually believe you're correct, I just think you did a good job defending your position), now can you please give me satisfactory explanations of why rape seems to be OK in the Bible?

Things like working on the Sabbath are punishable by death, yet if you rape a virgin then your punishment is... pay her father and then marry the woman that you raped??? What does this symbolize?

Why don't you give the exact verses you are referencing? That might help.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Ok, See how you do double speak here? You make the statement:

"You are saying that Christianity is a religion of love. In reality I see it expressed with hate."

In this statement you are addressing the "Religion of Christianity"

Then you are sarcastic to me regarding "examples of "hateful Christians"

You make a statement about the religion and then slam the people.

Gather any group of humans, any... electricians, musicians, doctors, teachers, athletes... any group and you will have hateful people. Christianity is no different.
Thing is, Jesus accepts them as they are and so do true Christians.

So, now, I ask again, how is the religion of Christianity a hateful religion?

Please don't use examples of men who used Christianity as a platform to justify their own selfish desires and agendas.

OK... couldn't Muslims say the exact same thing? I still don't see your point.

I recognize that Islam is by far a worse institution by Christianity - it's not even close - but there is still a comparison to be made.

I don't know where in the Koran it says to murder people, but we all know it's there. But Islamic apologists will do a song and dance about it. Somewhat similarly, I know exactly where in the Bible it says to murder and rape people, but Christian apologists will do a song and dance about it.

 

[Cappadocious]

Nihilists don't draw that line.

Are you thinking of Nihilism or Skepticism?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Please, destroy it again. Enlighten me.

Try reading the rest of the post that you snipped away to produce that quote, for starters.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Do you think the people who are taking the time to argue with you here have embraced their faith?

No.

Isn't that what Christ exemplified? Christianity is a religion made by man, as a method to worship a savior that taught us that He wants no religion. All religions are man made so, yes, a world without religion would be perfect. This will be what the millennial age is like, when Christ rules for 1000 years. And I guess in eternal life.

If you are in email correspondence with someone and they don't respond within a year, don't you usually get the impression that their response is never gonna happen?

Now how long does it have to be before you get the impression that Christ isn't coming back? Does the sun have to expand into a red giant and engulf the earth before you get that impression?

I'm still own a CRT for television so I can comment here. Many people have possessions that they do not need. This is the sin of covertness. However, I think you should talk to the Oprah's and Bill Gates of the world before you attack the working stiff who has a large TV or a boat or a snowmobile and condemn them for having something they enjoy. You have no right to judge what they do or don't give to charity and what percent of their income that represents.

Oprah and Bill Gates could single handedly save many small countries and still have more money than I will even earn in my life.... these people give a large sum of money that is like me giving less than one penny of my savings and everyone pats them on the back.... ffffffft they don't even feel it.



What is more laughable? Anyone telling anyone else that they are any worse of a human when it comes to being generous or charitable. Especially if it is a backslidden Christian who is trying to justify their turning from the truth of Christ.

I'm not saying you're a bad human being for owning a TV. Just a bad Christian.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You responded already.

I don't need to quote your entire sentence. You wrote that Christians watch their 70 inch TV while children starve. Implicit in your accusation is that children starving is a bad thing.

You DO believe that children starving is a bad thing, don't you? Perhaps I assume too much. It may well be that you don't care a fig if children starve or not, and merely want to criticize Christians for their hypocrisy of caring but not giving their all (or at least not sitting and watching their 70 inch TVs) while children starve.

If that's the case, then let's focus on why you are such a cold and heartless soul as to not care if children starve - the hypocrisy of Christians is not nearly as interesting as your own brutal coldness towards suffering human beings.

But if, as I suspect, you do care about starving children, then the identical charge of hypocrisy that you have leveled against the Christians for watching their TVs while children starve can be leveled directly at you, for the same reason.

So, which is it? Are you a hypocrite like the TV-watching Christians, or are you a cold-hearted monster?

I have to cite 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 twice in one day?