• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Hey neo calvinist

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So why are you against the sinners prayer then? Everyone has to start somewhere
I'm against the actual sinner's prayer at all. As is has been said, it is a starting point. But the person must put into actual practice what he has promised to God in the prayer. What I am opposed to is people telling the person, "You are saved now!" because of the prayer alone.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,236
7,544
North Carolina
✟345,499.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
.
 

Attachments

  • upload_2022-1-29_19-38-34.png
    upload_2022-1-29_19-38-34.png
    3 MB · Views: 4
  • upload_2022-1-29_19-39-7.png
    upload_2022-1-29_19-39-7.png
    3 MB · Views: 11
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,236
7,544
North Carolina
✟345,499.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And then crowed about Servetus being cooked. Yes
sounds like he was all broken up about it.
Are you aware of God's response to those who opposed his people (church) in the OT
(1 Samuel 15:2-3)?

Perhaps he understood more than you realize.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Calvin was fully involved in each capital decision involving anyone of note, and ultimately responsible for all murder and torture under his regime. All totalitarian regimes have a judiciary, installed by the regime’s leaders. They don’t just set up some private club on their own and start knocking people off. The whole grotesquery would never have existed in the first place without Calvin. Quibbling over whether someone should be beheaded or slow roasted to death over some petty doctrinal dispute was about the extent of his compassion. When it came to dealing with anyone who disagreed with his ideas he was treacherous, deceitful and murderous. Considering him a representative of Christ is insane.
Are you aware of term “genetic fallacy”?
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,449
✟156,970.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm against the actual sinner's prayer at all. As is has been said, it is a starting point. But the person must put into actual practice what he has promised to God in the prayer. What I am opposed to is people telling the person, "You are saved now!" because of the prayer alone.
So works salvation then. Sounds more like Catholic or Orthodox than any reformed theology. Reformed theology is very much about faith alone.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So it's ok to burn heretics?
Not in our day and age. Also heresy is not a capital offence in America or New Zealand. But in the 16th and 17th Centuries, heresy was a capital offence and the official means of execution was burning at the stake. Just as a matter of interest, in 19th Century England, one could be hanged for stealing a loaf of bread. Also Puritan groups in America also burned heretics at the stake, drowned innocent women accused of witchcraft. In colonial America, a person accused of heresy was thrown out of the compound and left to starve to death in the wilderness. Also in the early 20th Century a young black man was tortured and burned to death accused of having a relationship with a white woman. Probably all he did was to say hello to her in the street. So those who have not sinned in America have permission to cast the first stone at Calvin. Therefore when pointing the finger at Calvin, let's have a good look at American early history as well.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So works salvation then. Sounds more like Catholic or Orthodox than any reformed theology. Reformed theology is very much about faith alone.
I made an error. I meant that I am not against the actual sinner's prayer. But I still say that the person has to demonstrate true repentance. This is not the same as good works to try and be justified before God. Salvation is always grace-based and there is nothing we can do to contribute to it. But repentance is not works, it consists in what we stop doing that we did before. Therefore forsaking the works of the flesh is not adding good works to our salvation. It is ceasing to do the things that would make us appear as hypocrites who profess Christianity but still doing the things that unconverted people do.

Let me say it again. Good works adding to salvation is what people do. True repentance is what genuine believers don't do. That is the difference.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,449
✟156,970.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not in our day and age. Also heresy is not a capital offence in America or New Zealand. But in the 16th and 17th Centuries, heresy was a capital offence and the official means of execution was burning at the stake. Just as a matter of interest, in 19th Century England, one could be hanged for stealing a loaf of bread. Also Puritan groups in America also burned heretics at the stake, drowned innocent women accused of witchcraft. In colonial America, a person accused of heresy was thrown out of the compound and left to starve to death in the wilderness. Also in the early 20th Century a young black man was tortured and burned to death accused of having a relationship with a white woman. Probably all he did was to say hello to her in the street. So those who have not sinned in America have permission to cast the first stone at Calvin. Therefore when pointing the finger at Calvin, let's have a good look at American early history as well.
Diversion. Try and stay on the topic.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,449
✟156,970.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I made an error. I meant that I am not against the actual sinner's prayer. But I still say that the person has to demonstrate true repentance. This is not the same as good works to try and be justified before God. Salvation is always grace-based and there is nothing we can do to contribute to it. But repentance is not works, it consists in what we stop doing that we did before. Therefore forsaking the works of the flesh is not adding good works to our salvation. It is ceasing to do the things that would make us appear as hypocrites who profess Christianity but still doing the things that unconverted people do.

Let me say it again. Good works adding to salvation is what people do. True repentance is what genuine believers don't do. That is the difference.
And as a fallible human being, it's unlikely we can tell which someone is doing. Part of the problem is also that everyone draws the lines in different places. I've attended churches where watching movies was considered a sin. So there's always the question of what exactly you are supposed to quit doing.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,468
Tarnaveni
✟841,659.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are you aware of term “genetic fallacy”?

Calvin’s actions as a civic leader are linked to his disturbing notions of an arbitrary, sociopathic god. The idea doesn’t apply when the whole apple is rotten.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Calvin’s actions as a civic leader are linked to his disturbing notions of an arbitrary, sociopathic god. The idea doesn’t apply when the whole apple is rotten.
Unless you can show that his teachings are wrong, his actions are irrelevant. That’s why it’s good to not use fallacies when making a point.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,468
Tarnaveni
✟841,659.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Unless you can show that his teachings are wrong, his actions are irrelevant. That’s why it’s good to not use fallacies when making a point.

I think you have a wood/trees issue here. Spending hours (years) poring over the finer points of Calvins' theology is for the birds. Why do you think Jesus, and the NT as a whole, continually steers away from pointless, endless theological discussions? Why did Jesus avoid getting drawn into discussions with 'experts'? Jesus' words are clear, if you want to understand God, stay away from the legalists.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
There's no gap between teachings and action. Calvin's theology comes from and leads to what you would expect from a psychopathic brain when not constrained by external factors.
Then it should be easy to prove.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I think you have a wood/trees issue here. Spending hours (years) poring over the finer points of Calvins' theology is for the birds. Why do you think Jesus, and the NT as a whole, continually steers away from pointless, endless theological discussions? Why did Jesus avoid getting drawn into discussions with 'experts'? Jesus' words are clear, if you want to understand God, stay away from the legalists.
I’ve read very little of Calvin. I have read a lot of scripture. So make sure that you know whereof you speak.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
It isn't just difficult, it's impossible. You're asking the wrong questions.
You’re make the wrong accusations. Reformed Theology doesn’t rely on the teachings of Calvin.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,468
Tarnaveni
✟841,659.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You’re make the wrong accusations. Reformed Theology doesn’t rely on the teachings of Calvin.
Your question about ‘proving’ some subset of theology wrong, that’s the question you asked.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Your question about ‘proving’ some subset of theology wrong, that’s the question you asked.
You made accusations about Calvin as a person as if they somehow taint his writings. I’m willing to concede that this may be true. However, I’m not willing to take your word for it. So I’m asking you to anything specific about his writings that are affected by his moral failings.
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,468
Tarnaveni
✟841,659.00
Country
Romania
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You made accusations about Calvin as a person as if they somehow taint his writings. I’m willing to concede that this may be true. However, I’m not willing to take your word for it. So I’m asking you to anything specific about his writings that are affected by his moral failings.

I’m not sure if moral failings is the right term, it seems more likely he was a high functioning psychopath, or something if that sort. His notion of god as an arbitrary legalistic reflects that pretty well.
 
Upvote 0