Hermeneutics and the Old Testament

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inquisitor_11

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I realise this question probably belongs in Bibliology & Hermeneutics, but i figured there is probably more chance of a good response here.

My question is, in light of Jesus' comments in the gospels and those of others in the NT, were the laws of the covenent with Moses recognised for being divinely inspired. I don't particular consider the bible inerrant or whatever.

My main interest is in Jesus' opposition to people (women, gentiles the sick etc.) being excluded from the temple worship and community, despite the fact that the authorities of the day were acting (more or less) in accordance with the rules given in the torah. Also does this effect the claim that Jesus taught in accordance with what God had already revealed to the Jewish people ( an important question when talking with non-messinaic (sp?) Jews)?
 

Starstreak M86

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Hey!

I think that Jesus' teachings were the ORIGINAL meaning of the Law all along. Remember, Jesus said that the Laws of Moses had not been destroyed by His teachings, only fulfilled (the cermonial laws and sacrificial laws). I never took the dietary laws literally to begin with, and I have never viewed the stoning laws as literal stoning either (for instance, Exodus says that only the Police were allowed to put accused people to death, and only after a thorough democratic trial).

The Pharisees were Jesus' time's equivalent of Bible-literalist Conservatives. They took everything in the Torah as literal, and even added on some laws (adhering to add-on teachings of the Talmud). The Sadducees even denied some parts of the Torah (such as physical resurrection), which Jesus criticized them for.

The Pharisees and the Sadducees, just like some Christians do today, understood the "letter of the Law" (the literal face-value meaning), but not the "Spirit of the Law". As in, they didn't understand the attitude and spirit that one is to observe it with, and that it is okay to break parts of the Law to do good and help people (such as Jesus breaking the Sabbath Law, and Jesus touching lepers and allowing un-kosher meats to be consumed).

Some Apocryphal books of the New Testament that were widely accepted as Scripture in many churches (some churches in Ethiopia, Kenya, Syria, Turkey and China still have these as part of their Bible) such as the Epistle of Barnabas, 1 Clement and 2 Clement clarify alot of the meanings of Jesus' teachings.

Epistle of Barnabas:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lake.html

1 Clement:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/lightfoot/pt1vol2/translation1.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-hoole.html

2 Clement:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/lightfoot/pt1vol2/translation2.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/2clement-roberts.html

Even in the Old Testament, such as in the Book of Ezra, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Proverbs, Psalms, Jeremiah, Habukkuk, Zephaniah, etc. God says that He does not care much for the burnt offerings and whole grain offerings and sabbaths and Yom Kippurs. He says that those are all cultural things that are meant to be a show of your spiritual repentance.

God does not care for outward shows, He cares for how you feel in your heart towards Him. God cares about spiritual relationships with people, not ritual cermonies and religious laws and observations.

The sacrificial laws were nothing more than a figurative pointer to the Messiah to come (the lambs sacrificed were symbolic of Christ, their blood a symbol of Christ's blood, such as the lamb's blood on the doors of houses in Egypt before Passover).

I think that Christ just preached what the Torah meant all along, "Treat others the way you would have them treat you", give to the poor, turn the other cheek, Love God with all your might, heart and soul, and be faithful.

:wave:
 
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inquisitor_11

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Even in the Old Testament, such as in the Book of Ezra, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Proverbs, Psalms, Jeremiah, Habukkuk, Zephaniah, etc. God says that He does not care much for the burnt offerings and whole grain offerings and sabbaths and Yom Kippurs. He says that those are all cultural things that are meant to be a show of your spiritual repentance.

That's exactly what Im trying to figure out- in the Torah, the commandments are given as being "from the LORD", and to be explicitly obeyed by the Jews. Yet later on were being told that "God didn't really mean that" (is that taking it too far?). I have no doubt as to the redundancy of the law for christians. I find it hard to believe God didn't really mean for the law to be obeyed, maybe I should go reread Romans.... *thinking aloud*.
 
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inquisitor_11 said:
That's exactly what Im trying to figure out- in the Torah, the commandments are given as being "from the LORD", and to be explicitly obeyed by the Jews. Yet later on were being told that "God didn't really mean that" (is that taking it too far?). I have no doubt as to the redundancy of the law for christians. I find it hard to believe God didn't really mean for the law to be obeyed, maybe I should go reread Romans.... *thinking aloud*.
Inquisitor_11,
Hey bro! :wave:

I personally think that only a few Jews TRULY understood their own law, or at least chose to understand it properly. Look at Jews today, they have interpreted the Law to mean "Live and let live". IMO, the only Jews who truly understood the Law were Moses, Aaron, the Old Testament Prophets and Writers, and Jewish Christians of Jesus' day.

I think this would explain alot of the Old Testament:
http://rationalchristianity.net/
http://rationalchristianity.net/apol_index.html#phil_geno

http://www.tektonics.org/whowants.html

Our harshest portrayal of Abba comes from the Torah, also known as the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible allegedly compiled and/or written by Moses. In the Torah, Abba is often seen as jealous, war-like, sometimes even cruel. To understand this, we remember that the Bible, though inspired by the Divine, was written by people, and those people were fallible in their interpretations and worldviews.

Take a look at the natural disasters attributed to Abba in the OT. The three most famous are the flood of Noah, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the catastrophic plagues of Egypt. Perhaps Abba really did these things. But let's step back a moment before we accuse Him of "unwarranted genocide." None of these peoples were blameless. According to the Bible, all committed grievous sins and crimes against nature. The people of Noah's time were corrupt and perverse; the people of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to rape the angels; and the Egyptians were enslaving the Hebrew tribe, refusing to release them even to practice Hebrew religious rites. How quick are we to put down a rabid animal? How many times has a dog been put to sleep for injuring or killing someone? How much more is Abba justified in putting an end to those who live only to hurt his other creatures, many wanting even to destroy God himself.

There is also the possibility that He did not destroy those people at all. The ancients could not understand why bad things happened to large groups of people, especially when it came to natural disasters. When catastrophes struck, they would either get angry and blame a deity or attribute it to the "righteous justice" of a deity. We now know that there was some sort of great flood, that a volcano or other form of natural disaster could have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (some bizarre theories on that one, such as spontaneous combustion due to gas/oil saturated soil and an earthquake opening up hot vents in the earth, OR a meteor strike), and that many of the plagues of Egypt were within the realm of natural possibility. Perhaps in an effort to explain why Abba allowed such disasters to happen, Moses decided that He was punishing these nations for their crimes. We had a less respectable example of this with Jerry Falwell after September 11th, when he blamed the attack on anyone who is not a fundamentalist Christian. Unfortunately this vengeful nasty image of Abba is still negatively influencing the world today, in the form of the Muslim god Allah, who is similar to the Old Testament Abba or El, the name Allah being derived from El-ah.

But what about all the wars in the OT? We shouldn't forget that El was a God of war, and as such He had no problem with His Chosen People conquering neighboring tribes who worshiped subordinate and even blood-thirsty human-sacrifice demanding Gods. The second thing we have to remember is that the most important thing on Moses' mind was the preservation of the Hebrew tribe and its culture and of protecting it from the perversions of the other more primitive less enlightened tribal religions of the region. Obviously, this would have been important to Abba as well. It was for these reasons that the Hebrews were told not to intermarry with the other much larger cultures, and permission was given to drive them out of the land. Historians agree that intermarriage did definitely occur, even between the Philistines and Israelites, but never on a large scale. Usually Hebrew men would take foreign wives, but never the other way around. Interestingly, new DNA evidence (May 2002) reveals just that. The Y chromosomes of Jewish men alive today can be traced back to the MidEast about 4000 years ago, whereas these same men's mitochondrial DNA (which comes only from the mother) shows that the original women of the Jewish communities of the world were often locals who converted to Judaism and married the incoming Jewish men. After any kind of mingling and marriage, the people of the tribe were to follow strict laws that would ensure the preservation of the new and already endangered culture. It was not because El, or even Moses, were racists.

Abba El was one of the better Gods of the day. People wanted to worship him, because not only did he kick butt against any enemies, but he was "wholesome" and family oriented. He abhorred human sacrifice, especially child sacrifice, which was practiced by devotees of other Canaanite Gods. He did not often call for the deaths of women and children in times of war, unlike some of the other Gods. And once the Hebrew culture was firmly established, His policy toward other tribes was live and let live - a policy Jews everywhere still practice today. Absent from Judaism has always been the religious persecution carried out by Christians (centuries ago) and Muslims (sadly still today) against anyone who won't convert.

So what about this new image of Abba in the New Testament? Well, it really isn't a new image at all. Even through His terrible times in the Old Testament, Abba was loving and merciful. He could have easily destroyed the whole human race in the great flood, but allowed a fragment to survive. He could have destroyed or abandoned the Hebrew tribe after the golden calf incident. He could have commanded the complete genocide of all the other tribes of Canaan, but He never did. However, a somewhat more evolved and "civilized" image of Abba did take root during the time of the prophets. Father Abba wanted good works and love more than legalistic sacrifice; his prophets began to preach a loving and faithful God to an idol-worshiping apostate people; and most of all, His prophets began to tell of a Messiah who would come and suffer in order to give them the key to eternal life. That promise came to fruition during the time of Yeshua, when Abba allowed his Bride (Sophia / Shekinah or God-the-Mother who came as Mother Mary) and his two Children (Mary Magdala and Yeshua) to incarnate, teach a new wisdom, suffer through Yeshua's crucifixion, continue to teach amid persecution, and finally return to him in Heaven. All of this was for the benefit of humanity. This is the image of the all-loving all-merciful Father God most of us are familiar with.

But the war-like cruel Father does make appearances the New Testament. He is glimpsed in Paul's strict warnings against idol worship. Lest we think we moderns are exempt from idolatrous temptations, it must be noted that today idol worship is everywhere. Materialism, consumerism, love of money for money's sake all represent worshiping, adoring and lusting after man-made objects. The worshiping of celebrities and athletes, a small portion of whom may deserve admiration, but should never be fawned over or "loved," is idolatrous and putting other gods before Him. Celebrities are the false gods of our age. The Big Guy gets perhaps ticked at this and warnings of his possible displeasure are seen in the New Testament.



The harsh Abba can also be seen in the apocalyptic book of Revelation. Abba's image is once again a product of the times. It was the age of great persecution for Christians, and John the Revelator (accurately) saw even greater persecution coming. He predicted Abba will once again become the God of war in order to save Christians, Jews, and all those who are right-behaving ("righteous"). Abba-El will return as his son, the Lamb again, and snatch his own up from the clutches of anti-God (Shaitan or Satan) and anti-Christ's dark forces. The returning God will punish and deliver painful judgement upon all those who follow the evil ones, and ultimately he will destroy them along with Shaitan and the anti-Christ. This is not a passive or meek God, nor is it a cruel and unjust tyrant - this is a Father defending His wife and kids from raping marauders, a Shepherd protecting his flock from blood-thirsty wild animals. In truth that is how it always was.
Like us and like all other Gods, our Abba wears many faces - but he was certainly the Creative Father of the Old Testament and the Redeeming Father of the New. He is neither tyrant nor weakling. Like any good Father, He is protective and loving, expecting (and deserving) the respect and adoration of those He has created and continues to protect. Are we giving Him that respect and adoration?​

http://northernway.org/fathergod.html


That should explain some. :)
 
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inquisitor_11

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Abba El was one of the better Gods of the day. People wanted to worship him, because not only did he kick butt against any enemies, but he was "wholesome" and family oriented.

lol... thats becoming one of my quotable quotes. No wonder so many conservatives wanna be christians!

Still not getting what I was looking for though... I think half the problem was that I didn't articulate myself real well (plus i haven't taken the time to follow any of the links yet...). Anyhow, not to worry. Thanks for the reponses.
 
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