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Heretical Content and/or Occult Interpretations Found in Freemasonry

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Rev Wayne

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You're kidding, right? I hope the readers know better than to take anything you post at face value, ESPECIALLY when you start adding things to it and calling it "emphasis." All you ever post are intentional inaccuracies, and label it "Masonry" thinking no one will be wiser.

For the discerning reader, HERE is the fuller version of what Mike just butchered:

Several key points, which Mike of course would never tell you:

(1) None of the books on the list are present in any way at any ordinary lodge function.
(2) This is only for an indidual who "does not wish to be obligated on the Holy Bible." In other words, it's a completely volitional choice of THAT individual.
(3) It's only there for the duration of the degree THAT individual is taking.
(4) It's not a "substitute" (as Mike incorrectly added to the statement when he partially cited it), for the Bible remains on the altar.
(5) It is there for the sole purpose that the candidate who chose it may take his obligation upon it.
(6) The candidate is required to state that the book chosen is the holy book of HIS FAITH.
(7) The practice is paralleled in U.S. courts, where any person being sworn in for testimony may do so on the book of his/her own faith.

In other words, everything about it pvoves that any other "VSL" when used, serves in a capacity that can no way be interpreted as having any kind of support for the book or its contents from the GL of California. It is a book placed there because it is significant to the CANDIDATE, not to the lodge conducting the degree.

I would hope that any organization which consists of a multifaith group, and involving any kind of obligation, would be as willing as Masonry is to follow a path consistent with the patterns established for our courtrooms, rather than discriminate against them by requiring they comply with the usual custom of obligating upon a Bible.
 
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not be obligated on the same book of Holy Writings.
the Bible remains on the altar. Here we have the satanic HOLY BOOKS, well at least that is what free masonry considers them, sitting on the same altar as the Living Word of the ALmighty God. BLASPHEMY

(6) The candidate is required to state that the book chosen is the Holy book of HIS FAITH.
Again, free masonry promoting satanic writing as HOLY.

(7) The practice is paralleled in U.S. courts, where any person being sworn in for testimony may do so on the book of his/her own faith.
Again referring to a secular government structure.


Please Lord, open the eyes of your blinded children, my brothers and sisters, who will one day either serve satan through this fraternity, or die as traitors. AMEEN!
 
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Rev Wayne

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Help me discern between these things.

Well I'd certainly like to, but your mind was already made up before you ever set foot on this or any other Freemasonry thread here. Nobody can help the hyper-dogmatic, they can only make sure their hyper-literalism and paranoia do not spread.

Apparently free masonry considers books inspired by satan like the kahballa, the talmud etc as HOLY BOOKS!

They are not books "inspired by satan." The kabbalah is a product of Jewish mysticism, which developed from Rabbinical teachings. It's not a part of Masonry, you've been reading too many Albert Pike-based conspiracy websites.

What's even more bizarre is why you call the Talmud a "book inspired by satan." The Talmud is one of the central texts of mainstream Judaism. It functions much like a commentary upon the Tanakh, just as we have Christian commentaries upon the Bible. Commentaries are not inspired by satan, that's just pure high-strung paranoia at its worst. Nor is the Tanakh inspired by satan, it's part of the core that makes up our own Bible.

US courts are secular.

So are lodges.

Again referring to a secular government structure.

And again comparing to a secular fraternal organization. I mean, Skip has pointed out more than once that the only reason for any book to be present is for the taking of the obligation. That's the same as with the U.S. courts. Yet these guys call one a religion, and the other secular. G figure.

Here we have the satanic HOLY BOOKS, well at least that is what free masonry considers them,

Masonry makes no such determination, they are referred to as such because that is what they are generally understood to be by each of the various religions.

sitting on the same altar as the Living Word of the ALmighty God.

In case you forgot, and you sure seem to have done so. this was a quote from California. Practices vary from place to place. Some insist the Bible remain open. Some do not even have the alternate books placed there at all. Others have no stated provision for what the practice shall be. I haven't seen any stated procedure in my own jurisdiction--but then, I haven't seen anyone ask for another book either.

But the paranoid definition offered by the hyper-sensitive critics of Freemasonry, that they are thus being "equated with" the Bible, is false. The Bible, after all, is the book upon the altar by requirement of U.S. lodges. The only one who gives any such other book any credence, is the candidate who requests it. And the only reason they request it has nothing to do with Freemasonry, and everything to do with the fact that it is the book familiar to them through their religious affiliation.

The fact still remains, unless an individual requests it, it is not present upon the altar. And even then, it remains there only for the degree during which that individual participates. And as already pointed out, that pertains only to California, the practice can be and is very different in other jurisdictions, so that it is not even necessarily placed on the altar at all.

Some jurisdictions, like mine, probably wouldn't even know WHAT to do if someone made such a request. I even had one WM tell me, if it ever happened while he presided, he would not honor the request. He said he knew several others who had told him the same thing. Of course, telling our resident antimasons such things always sends them into a tizzy, since they are not accustomed to acknowledging that Freemasonry does not come in one-size-fits-all. That just illustrates how little they understand it.
 
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Skip Sampson

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You are pretty selective with your facts. Masonry claims to be a religious group in several jurisdictions and claims the following in all of them: lodges erected to God, dedicated to the Sts. John, representations of King Solomon's Temple, including the Holy of Holies, and claims to affect a spiritual transformation by means of its ritual. It claims a sacred altar (in many jurisdictions), and claims to be bringing in men to serve God and mankind in all of them. In the MM degree, it claims that the FC is being brought into the presence of God to learn the lessons it is intended to teach, which are those of resurrection and immortality. Many Masonic writers like to say it's 'Religion,' but not 'a Religion.' I disagree, of course.

In short, Masonry is not at all secular, and to compare it with the US court system is simply an inept comparison and flat-out wrong in that it ignores the facts. It's a part of Masonic PR that only works on those who know little about Freemasonry.

Of note in your comment is your admission that the Bible (aka VSL) is present only to solemnify the obligation in both the court and the lodge. Earlier you have gone to great lengths to show that the Bible has a much greater purpose in the Craft. I'd like to think you've finally come over to my side of things, but I fear you just made the comment to fit the criticism, and consistency was not a concern. Still, it is true that the Bible serves exactly the same purpose in both lodge and court.

but then, I haven't seen anyone ask for another book either.
Let's speculate: you are present for an EA initiation and the candidate, as Muslim, requests the Koran as his VSL. The ritual is altered to replace "the Bible" with "the book of your faith." Would you participate in such an initiation?

The Bible, after all, is the book upon the altar by requirement of U.S. lodges.
But GL's are becoming more uniform in noting that the VSL is really the Great Light and that one of them must be present. They choose to use the Bible, but could actually choose any part of the VSL the members decide to use. And that's a fact.

I even had one WM tell me, if it ever happened while he presided, he would not honor the request.
Interesting. Wouldn't the WM be violating a GL regulation by so doing? Didn't he swear to uphold and obey the GL dictates when he assumed the chair? And wouldn't such a statement violate Masonry's claim to be unconcerned with the man's religious views? Did you point any of that out, or just glare at him and walk away? Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Sorry, Skip, you can't even get Florida's bylaws straightened out, you can't tell a cube from a rectangular solid, you can't tell the difference between a staircase and a ladder--let's face it, you don't fare too well on the credibility scale during your tenure here. I don't pay much attention to the small fish, just toss them back or use them for bait.

Besides, I wasn't talking to you in the first place. Didn't you make a statement not so long ago, about taking the position of not responding until the person addressed had first responded? Did you mean it, or has that now become yet another of your legendary flip-flops?
 
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Skip Sampson

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Besides, I wasn't talking to you in the first place.
Actually you were talking to me:
I mean, Skip has pointed out more than once that the only reason for any book to be present is for the taking of the obligation.
When you bring me into the conversation, I will respond.

I applaud your response. It finally shows that you know enough to quit when you are losing. That is certainly something all of us should appreciate. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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When you bring me into the conversation, I will respond.

A 3rd-person passing reference isn't "bringing you into the conversation." But it does show how hyper-sensitive you are to the least comment.

I applaud your response. It finally shows that you know enough to quit when you are losing.

That's just it, the one who has been losing is the one who rants to no end about Jacob's staircase, rectangular cubes, and non-existent claims about Florida bylaws. The person who does such things, and not merely "does" them, but carries threads off-topic for page after page without ceasing, clearly can't even distinguish his own gluteus maximus from a terran aperture.

Therefore my comments, indicating that I will take the conversation to someone who CAN, not that I have disengaged. Just being more selective whom I converse with, to avoid endless and useless meanderings from you. Even our friend AHS fares better than what you have brought to the discussions here, despite the conspiracy bent.
 
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Skip Sampson

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A 3rd-person passing reference isn't "bringing you into the conversation."
Yes, it is.

I applaud your response. It finally shows that you know enough to quit when you are losing.
Flattery will get you nowhere.

non-existent claims about Florida bylaws.
To what does that refer?

The person who does such things, and not merely "does" them, but carries threads off-topic for page after page without ceasing, clearly can't even distinguish his own gluteus maximus from a terran aperture.
But I can distinguish the rectangular solid pictured in GL documentation from a cube in your mind, and a stairway in Strong's from a ladder in your children's stories.

Just being more selective whom I converse with
I don't think that will save you any embarrassment as you'll be making the same errors that you've always made. Learn to control your ego and self-righteousness and discipline your thinking and your posts will improve markedly.

Until then, I'd invite any and all readers to look into your posts over the past 6 months. They show clearly the influence of Masonry on a man. Cordially, Skip.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Flattery will get you nowhere.

You're the one doing the flattering, to yourself. What you took note of was simply a case of overlooked quote encasement, not imitation.

To what does that refer?

Sure, plead ignorance. Biblical Content (Monitorial), Post #186. You said what I posted from the Florida bylaws "introduced a new concept," which it does not. Pretty much avoided the conversation from that point, after I pointed this out to you at the time. Guess you didn't like what Florida law had to say. That's understandable, since it totally contradicted what you were claiming.

But I can distinguish the rectangular solid pictured in GL documentation from a cube in your mind,

60+ sources all declaring it to be a cube, is not something "in my mind." By way of contrast, though, ZERO sources claiming the perfect ashlar to be a "rectangular solid," now that's definitely something that's in YOUR mind.

and a stairway in Strong's from a ladder in your children's stories.

So that's what the Bible is to you--children's stories?

What a perfect self-illustration of your problems.

Learn to control your ego and self-righteousness and discipline your thinking and your posts will improve markedly.

It's not "my" posts that need to improve. You need to post this on your mirror and read it as a daily self-help. Somebody who refuses every Masonic statement of perfect ashlars as cubes, and asserts his own--unaffirmed by Masonry--idea of "rectangular solids," definitely has ego problems; defending your errors tooth and nail is pretty self-righteous; and "discipline?" I tend to think rectangular cubes, Jacob's staircase, and denial of what Florida Masonic law clearly says, speak for themselves. Not sure what you'd call it, but "discipline" certainly doesn't come to mind.
 
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Skip Sampson

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Biblical Content (Monitorial), Post #186.
Well, let's follow the quotes:


Wayne #185 said:
38.27 Use of Bible containing extraneous matter is not proper. The First Grand Light in Masonry is the unadorned Holy Bible. (1941 Proc. 82)
Me #186 said:
Your first reference has nothing to do with the great lights; the second introduces a new concept.
Wayne#187 said:
"New concept?" Sorry, you missed the boat:
I thought I had responded to that, but obviously not. Here, then, is the response: "The First Grand Light" can have two meanings: 1) It's the first of 3, with the S&C being the other two; 2) it's the first of the VSL's, all of which can be a jurisdiction's Grand Light. It is, of course, the VSL which is the Great Light in Masonry. It's the second point that was behind my thought of a 'new concept.' It's a phrase I hadn't seen before.

Guess you didn't like what Florida law had to say. That's understandable, since it totally contradicted what you were claiming.
Nothing to like or dislike; it is what it is. Speaking of it, I don't remember your take on this GL statement:

This truth remains: the majority of FL GL documentation is clear that it is the VSL that is it's Great Light and part of the furniture of the lodge. As you see, the Code agrees with the MM and the LSME; however, the second Study Guide does not agree, and lists the Bible as the Great Light. An understandable inconsistency.
By way of contrast, though, ZERO sources claiming the perfect ashlar to be a "rectangular solid,"
Not true. Here are the sources that either indicate the ashlars are rectangular solids or have taken no position about it:


The following GL monitors picture both ashlars as rectangular solids:
Maryland Masonic Manual (1935)
Indiana Monitor and Freemason’s Guide (1949)
Washington Monitor and Freemason’s Guide (1952)
Manual of Freemasonry (1898)
Tennessee Craftsman (1953)
Masonic Textbook for West Virginia (1917)
Masonic Ritual – Alabama (1978)
Masonic Manual and Code – Georgia (1940)
North Carolina Lodge Manual (1997)
Constitution, By-Laws, Manual of the Lodge – Oregon (1911, 1919) (see below)
Manual of Work – Virginia (2002)
South Carolina Ahiman Rezon, (2010)
Louisiana Masonic Monitor (1945)
Kentucky Monitor (16th edition, copyright, 1921)

Coil’s view: Ashlar – Squared or shaped stones, either in the rough (rough ashlar) or finished (perfect ashlar). The name, perpend ashlar is found in old records and it is often said that this means perfect ashlar, but that cannot be demonstrated. Others have said that a perfect ashlar is a cube, but that is likewise unsubstantiated. The adjective, perfect, seems to apply to the condition of the stone rather than the dimensions. It is an error to suppose, as some do, that the principal work of the free masons was the making of square or prismatic stones to be laid in walls. On the contrary, the peculiar and characteristic work of the Gothic artists was the building of round and curved arches, columns, flying buttresses, ogees, carving, and even sculpturing. The making of ashlars must have been left to apprentices. Gothic cathedrals were not built like block houses. (Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia, 1st & 2nd editions, pg. 72) (Emphasis added)

Private commentaries, Masonic textbooks and other relevant sources depicting the ashlars as rectangular solids:
Daniel Sickels, General Ahiman Rezon, (1871)
Moses Redding, Standard Ahiman Rezon (1889)
Simon’s Masonic Monitor
Albert Mackey, Manual of the Lodge, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry
Richardson’s Monitor of Freemasonry
Duncan’s Ritual.
Jeremy Cross, The True Masonic Chart (first published in 1819),
Cornelius Moore, The Craftsman and Freemasons Guide (1854)
Robert Macoy, The Masonic Manual (1867)
Personal observations by myself (PA and VA lodges) and CMJ (SC lodge)
Allen E. Roberts, The Craft and Its Symbols, 1974
Rob Morris, Webb’s Monitor, (ca 1872)

These GL monitors provide no depictions of the ashlars:
Idaho Monitor (1948)
New Mexico Monitor and Ceremonies (1954)
Standard Monitor for Ohio (1948)
Murrow Masonic Monitor – Oklahoma (1988)
California Monitor and Officer’s Manual (1985)
Wisconsin Monitor (1925)
Montana Monitor (1934)
Masonic Monitor – Vermont (1947)
Masonic Monitor – Arkansas (1954)
Illinois Monitor (1962)
Iowa Monitor (1991)
Constitution, By-Laws, Manual of the Lodge – Oregon (1949, 1955) Note: at some point after the 1919 edition, they removed all illustrations from their monitors.
Michigan Masonic Monitor and Ceremonies (1944)
Florida Monitor, 1984 (note: the book contains a lodge graphic that shows the placement of the ashlars, but the scale does not permit identification as to shape.)

I'll keep these updated as more come in. In the main, you will note that my sources are authoritative; yours tend to be personal commentaries. From my list, and the discussion in my article on the subject, I'd say the case has been made that the ashlars are rectangular solids. No other conclusion is possible, except in the dreamworld of Masonic symbological thought, such that it is.

So that's what the Bible is to you--children's stories?
No; just pointing out that Masonry's biblical lessons are on about the same level of sophistication as a children's Bible story. And they are, of course, distorted to glorify Masonry, and Masons. Cordially, Skip.
 
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O.F.F.

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Tisk, tisk, tisk, Wayne cannot contain his misleading, deceitful arguments, even if his life depended on it. As if discerning Christians, don't know better.

First of all, have you forgotten what this thread is about? That’s right, the one where you said:

Wayne said:
But do think about this. Because should you choose to let this stand in the direction you have just now chosen to place the emphasis of this thread, I cannot in good conscience continue to post here.

Can't keep your word, now can you, pastor? But if you wish to contradict yourself, it won’t be the first time. Besides, I realized you had no ‘good’ conscience the moment you decided, as a Christian pastor, to become a Masonic one.

Secondly, you returned after I posted this:


Notice how this statement is consistent with what Albert Pike declared on page 226 of his infamous work, Morals & Dogma:


Now Wayne, again don’t forget what this thread is about, “Heretical Content … Found in Freemasonry.” So tell us, “rev” which one of these quotes is not heretical? In other words, in ‘good’ conscience, can you honestly say that either one is biblically compatible and honors the God of the Bible, whom you claim to serve?

Wayne said:
(1) None of the books on the list are present in any way at any ordinary lodge function.

That's a ridiculous claim; since it is obviously ordinary enough for the Grand Lodge to make it a precedent in their Code, and they continue to this day, to update it accordingly.

Wayne said:
(2) This is only for an indidual who "does not wish to be obligated on the Holy Bible." In other words, it's a completely volitional choice of THAT individual.

So what; they are obligating their loyalty to a system that acknowledges their false god, along with all others including yours, as one, under the Masonic name for its all-inclusive, Masonic deity known as “G.A.O.T.U.” So the truth of the matter is there is more to it than just obligating the initiate. It is to make him one with the fraternity, as they acknowledge one god, “in whom they put their trust,” regardless of the name the individual Mason chooses to call him or it.

Wayne said:
(3) It's only there for the duration of the degree THAT individual is taking.

Do you really expect readers to believe that Grand Lodges are in the business of making some of its members think that 'in Freemasonry' the book of their faith is somehow, looked down upon, and considered less than the Bible?

Wayne said:
(4) It's not a "substitute" (as Mike incorrectly added to the statement when he partially cited it), for the Bible remains on the altar.

Do you really expect readers to believe that there is a fundamental difference between the terms “alternate,” which is very term the Grand Lodge used, and “substitute,” which is what I used? After all Wayne, you know perfectly well, as an English major, they are both synonyms. Whether used as an adjective or a noun, the definition is still the same for both:


Wayne said:
(7) The practice is paralleled in U.S. courts, where any person being sworn in for testimony may do so on the book of his/her own faith.

As usual, Skip nailed you on this one:

Skip said:
In short, Masonry is not at all secular, and to compare it with the US court system is simply an inept comparison and flat-out wrong in that it ignores the facts. It's a part of Masonic PR that only works on those who know little about Freemasonry.

I would add to his last point, or they know little about our U.S. court system. When was the last time you were in a courtroom, Wayne? No one is required by law to swear in for testimony on a Bible or any ‘holy’ text. All a person is required to do is to publicly affirm his or her solemn commitment to tell the truth, and the whole truth, or be at risk of perjury in a court of law. But you knew that when you posted it; yet you were relying on the ignorance of some of the readers to be gullible enough to believe you.

Wayne said:
I even had one WM tell me, if it ever happened while he presided, he would not honor the request. He said he knew several others who had told him the same thing.

In ‘good’ conscience, do you really think that is the Masonic thing to do? If not, then why didn’t you have the guts to tell him he is wrong?
 
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O.F.F.

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Wayne said:
The kabbalah is a product of Jewish mysticism, which developed from Rabbinical teachings. It's not a part of Masonry, you've been reading too many Albert Pike-based conspiracy websites.

These are the words of Pike himself:


And from the most prominent Mason from your very own jurisdiction of South Carolina:


But stay tuned! I have more to post here about Freemasonry and the Kabballah/Cabala, and other occult connections to the Masonic Order.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Naturally, as always, you ignore context when it doesn't suit your argument. The statement as it reads says:

38.27 Use of Bible containing extraneous matter is not proper. The First Grand Light in Masonry is the unadorned Holy Bible. (1941 Proc. 82)

You forget, too, that the same Digest of Masonic Law in Florida says:


That's the Holy Bible first, then the other regulations, because these are listed "RESPECTIVELY," meaning, this is the order in which they are considered authoritative.

The notation at the end of the statement in paragraph 38.27 shows the year and lists the decision by number. This is a statement which has stood on the books since 1941.

That makes your claim rather interesting, given that your number 2) is based on ideas which developed long after that point. The idea of "Grand Light" is never used in relation to any other book but the Bible. [The only usages of "Grand Light" I found otherwise, were (1) references in an appendant degree of Masonry, and (2) a degree by that name in some of the continental degrees.] Besides the one reference to it in Florida Digest of Masonic Law, I have found extremely few places the term is used as an alternate understanding of "Great Light." First of all, these two:

The fact that this one quotes from it immediately after referring to it, makes it clear what the intent of the reference is.

With this one, the very date veritably precludes the reference as anything but the Holy Bible, being in a North American GL statement in 1896.

And the only other one I could find was this snippet reference:

... of all masonic law, and of the by-laws of this Grand Lodge, and a shameful violation of the Grand Light, (GL of Iowa, Proceedings Vol. 6, p. 37)
Not much context was available to determine, but as this one also had to do with similar subject matter as the previous one, and with vol. 6 of their proceedings being, if I am correct, circa 1870, there is little doubt what Book was the intent of the reference here as well.

The idea of "Great Light" of Masonry in reference to any book other than the Holy Bible--despite the fact that even now such usages go against the far more widespread practice of the use of the term as an indication of the Holy Bible--has been a recent development, making an interpretation of a 1941 statement in a Florida ruling of Masonic Law highly unlikely, it not ruling it out completely.

One thing is for certain, the use of "Grand" interchangeably with "Great," though it occurs commonly in reference to "Grand" or "Great" Architect of the Universe, is extremely rare as an alternate for "Great" Light, in regard to the book on the altar. There are specific reasons for it, of course. For one, if you will remember, "Great Light" was not in vogue at the inception of the Grand Lodge era. The date generally given for its introduction into Masonry is 1760. But that is not the whole story. The term "Great Light" was in vogue in other ways much earlier than that; it simply had not been associated as yet with the Bible on the altar. The Johannite Masons, for example, had as a part of their tradition, an emphasis upon the proclamation of John the Baptist, whose main proclamation came from the book of Isaiah. A familiar verse to them from Isaiah was, "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light." There was also a key focus upon the prologue to the Gospel of John, and the interplay contained therein between themes of darkness and light.

Since "great light" already had a history as a tradition in Masonry in another sense, it therefore makes sense that an interchange of that term in the same manner in which "Great Architect" often became "Grand Architect," was almost unheard of.

George Oliver was well aware of the Johannite Masons (as his writings attest), and was very knowledgeable about the subject matter of the features of Johannite Masonry and the more recent introductions into Masonry by Hemming. There were themes in Johannite Masonry with very intentional focus upon this idea of "great light." Interestingly, Oliver takes his discussion of such matters to those and to several other key places that Masonry has taken it, with some fascinating results:


We are indebted to Oliver, who did his homework and knew the source of these things. But to check up on his account of things here, looking in Strong's for "dayspring," we find it as he has stated the matter, and not just from the Septuagint as he has related it:

395. anatolē

1) a rising (of the sun and stars)
2) the east (the direction of the sun's rising)

The very term "Great Light" then, goes back to Isaiah, the reference in Isaiah goes back to Shekinah, the Shekinah reference is a typological reference to Christ, the term "dayspring" which has reference to Christ, points us to a reference to the rising of the sun, the sun reference puts us in mind of the Malachi reference to the rising of the "Sun of Righteousness."

All of these things, in turn, put us in mind of the things of Masonry: the circumambulation of the altar, said to be in reference to the sun's cycles also; the references to "the east," which as we find in the "dayspring" reference--which, literally, means "the east"--have reference to Christ also; the references to "light," "more light," and "further light."

It also elucidates for us some of the references commonly found in Masonry: to Genesis, "and God said, let there be light, and there was light"; to John, "In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"; "and the light shone in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it"; thus it is no surprise that Masonry eventually got around to associating the idea of the "Great Light," which is Christ, with the written Word, of which Christ is the very embodiment.

Then, there is also the custom of not passing between the altar, on which lies the Bible, the "Great Light," and the WM of the lodge, whose symbolic designation of "Master" is itself a veiled reference to Christ, who cannot be separated from the concept of the written Word, He being its expression in its greatest fullness.

It's remarkable how keyed in Oliver was to the significance of these things in regard to Masonry, and in regard to what they truly symbolize. In this one brief discussion of Shekinah and its relation to the symbolism, he unveils an incredible amount of the most basic biblical and Christian symbolism that can be found in Blue Lodge symbolism. Those who created the system knew exactly what they were doing, and it is an extraordinary work of symbolic concealment; Oliver's understanding of it is no less extraordinary. The symbolism thus portrayed is so direct and so abundant, that it would be the most superficial treatment of it for someone to try to claim that it was "coincidence." The sheer abundance of the symbols alone cries against such an understanding. The very presence of the many OT typological references to Christ, which biblical scholars agree are extraordinary but do occur, as an intentional inclusion by the Bible's true Author; would seem to suggest, that such an extraordinary convergence of symbolic references that all indicate Christ as their object, if such was not the intent of the human authors of Masonry, must certainly indicate that the same Author of our Holy Writ, Old and New Testaments, had a hand in bringing about the same phenomenon by "accident" as it occurs in such strong and abundant Christological references in Masonry. Either way, one thing is clear: the intent is there, whether one wishes to acknowledge it as human or divine. There are far too many to ignore, or to misattribute to "chance" or "accident" or "coincidence."
 
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Rev Wayne

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Ah, but I HAVE kept my word, you just didn't pay any attention to what I stated, and wound up (as usual) highlighting the wrong portions:

Because should you choose to let this stand in the direction you have just now chosen to place the emphasis of this thread, I cannot in good conscience continue to post here.

The "direction" I was referring to was, spurious Masonry, which I will not bother re-defining for you, as you are quite well aware what that entails. As anyone can see from the comment, I was NOT stating, "I will not post anything else here." Believe me, if that had been my intent, I would have STATED the matter so, and I would have CEASED posting from the time I did.

No, this statement makes it clear that at the point I made it, I had not announced the matter irreconcilable, nor had I made any declaration of no further posting. I simply stated, SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO LET THIS STAND--that's a CONDITIONAL statement--then I can't in good conscience continue. From the point that I made that statement in reference to that sort of Masonry, the first few responses from that point were to pursue the point further, in order to TRY the matter first, and see if you DID intend to let it stand on that basis. You don't have to take my word for it, go back and see for yourself: the first couple of replies were to you and were more of the nature of challenge and confrontation than response.

As anyone can see, you did NOT continue your course. You moved from comments about spurious Freemasonry, to the question of books on the altar, cited from the REGULAR Grand Lodge of California.

At that point, I began response to you once again, rather than just the challenging comments I had made in the interim. At the point at which I did so, upon my making reference to something he had said, Skip re-entered the fray, and with a few other tangential comments, the subject got turned to other matters we had been discussing on a couple of threads I had started.

So, as anyone can see, you have NOT "chosen to let the matter stand" as it was, but have indeed allowed a free hand for it to take other directions. As a matter of fact, since we are now discussing the ashlars, which was the subject of the Perfect Ashlar thread; and the content of the Digest of Masonic Law in Florida, which had been under discussion in the Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation of Freemasonry (Monitorial), it should be clear to anyone reading these threads, that we have managed to come full circle, and I have now succeeded in returning the "favor" to you, of distracting your thread to the content I wished to consider, just as you succeeded in doing, temporarily, on threads I had started.

Of course, you could always go back to spurious Freemasonry, and wield your domineering influence over the thread to keep it on that topic, at which point I would abide by the terms of my statement and leave your thread for conscience's sake.
 
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Thank you brother,

I was once considering free masonry because an older member in my trade thought with my strong moral character and my sense of charity and humanity, that I would make a fine candidate.

I prayed about it to no end. But then my son was hospitalized and I was in tears reading how brother Job had his family taken away because of his pride.

An older gentlemen came over to console me, and after I had given him my testimony, he began to weep. He was a free mason, and told me of the kaballa and Pike, and the many others who are bringing about something that cannot be stopped.

I'll stop it there, but i am seriously interested to hear what some former masons have to say about the kahballa and about the ties to the occult and theosophy, and even to coming world government.


Thanks again truthers, I appreciate the education.

And brother Wayne, I pray for you and many others daily. And will until you find a way home.
 
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And brother Wayne, I pray for you and many others daily. And will until you find a way home.
Thanks all the same, I can always use prayer, but I never left, so prayers for my return are sorta strange. Jesus is still my Rock and my Fortress, He brought me out of the miry clay, I still remember what that clay was like, and this ain't it.

Masons are involved in prevention efforts against kids getting caught up in that same miry clay, through their connections with D.A.R.E., and they also do a lot, I notice, in the area of child I.D. information, which hopefully will be helpful against kidnapping and disappearances. I'm looking into some programs they have that have been successful in other areas, to see what can be done to implement some similar efforts here, as I find little in my area beyond the I.D. programs. Since you seem interested in praying, you could pray for those things, though somehow I doubt you will, since it might seem tantamount to you to praying for the success of the Masons. I hardly think that's the desire of any of them (that the Masons be successful), but rather that individuals who are the target of the programs be benefited. And while you are about your prayers, please pray for Jamison Powell, a 6-year-old with cancer who has been on my thoughts and in my prayers for around a year now. He has a rare form of brain cancer which has wrapped around his brain stem, and for a year or more, his young life has been all about treatments and trying to get better. I've cried and I've prayed about all I can over this young man, and over how unfair it is that I have three children who have been very healthy all their lives, and this boy's parents have this to deal with, with the only child they have. After treatments around spring of last year, he was greatly improved. But just before Christmas last year, I was told that it had returned with a vengeance, and Hospice was called in. No reports have come in since then, other than to pray for him, which I do.

Sorry if you didn't wanna see any of my heart, but I get tired of all this head stuff all the time. The rubber doesn't meet the road on this forum, that's for sure.
 
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And while you are about your prayers, please pray for Jamison Powell, a 6-year-old with cancer.

An older gentlemen came over to console me, and after I had given him my testimony, he began to weep. He was a free mason, and told me of the kaballa and Pike, and the many others who are bringing about something that cannot be stopped.

I'll stop it there, but i am seriously interested to hear what some former masons have to say about the kahballa and about the ties to the occult and theosophy, and even to coming world government.


their connections with D.A.R.E., and they also do a lot, I notice, in the area of child I.D. information, which hopefully will be helpful against kidnapping and disappearances.
This is one of the things I eluded to in my above post. Sinister, behind the scenes powers, creating a microchipping system, who without the whistleblowers slipping, many would never know of such scemes. Also, since most police, almost 52% are free masons, I highly doubt they will drop their cush salary to fight against this world govt, but instead will also consider the will of god, except their god is the god of light, lucifer.



And while you are about your prayers, please pray for Jamison Powell, a 6-year-old with cancer

Done and done.
 
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This is one of the things I eluded to in my above post. Sinister, behind the scenes powers, creating a microchipping system, who without the whistleblowers slipping, many would never know of such scemes.

And you create this monster out of an effort to protect children from being illegally carted off to God knows where? Oh well, I guess it justifies the lackadaisical approach of simply doing nothing, eh?

i am seriously interested to hear what some former masons have to say about the kahballa and about the ties to the occult and theosophy, and even to coming world government.

Well, we already had one former Mason ring in, who pretty much told you your conspiracy theories weren't exactly helping his efforts here, and asked you if you would restrain yourself from going there. Can't say I've seen a whole lotta ex-Masons running around in here, I think it has to do with that one-man-army approach.

As for the kaballah and the imaginary ties to it, that's kinda interesting too: from Mike's testimony of his life prior to becoming a professional ex-Mason, you get the impression that he considered himself a Christian, and his main interests were in being the best Christian and Mason he could be.

But somehow ever since then, it seems like Albert Pike was his only interest, Morals and Dogma was his Bible, and esoterica was his bread and butter, his morning devotion, and his midnight snack.

The whole thing just doesn't compute, because the things he now accuses Masons of, do not seem to have been a part of the Masonry in which he participated at any point.
 
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