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Here's the pattern....

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myfavoritmartin

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Spurious???

So you say.

.
Yes and so does any honest scholar.

Look at the whole of his work, to believe other than what I (simonthezealot) showed above would make cyprian out to be an idiot.

check this out...
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf...oncerning the celebration of easter#highlight

...specifically #6...
6. But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles; any one may know also from the fact, that concerning the celebration of Easter, and concerning many other sacraments of divine matters, he may see that there are some diversities among them, and that all things are not observed among them alike, which are observed at Jerusalem, just as in very many other provinces also many things are varied because of the difference of the places and names. And yet on this account there is no departure at all from the peace and unity of the Catholic Church, such as Stephen has now dared to make; breaking the peace against you, which his predecessors have always kept with you in mutual love and honour, even herein defaming Peter and Paul the blessed apostles
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Their cathedrals haven't sunk yet, and their numbers are as of the sand of the sea. :)

Romans 9:27 Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the number of the sons of Israel as the sand of the sea, the Remnant shall be being saved/swqhsetai <4982> (5701)'. [Daniel 12]

1.1 Billion "baby"! And growing. :p

I think of it as the largest and most unified organization out there. Even the muslims with their high number lack a lot of unity. Also, that 1.1 billion is just Catholic, if we added all Christianity it would be closer to 1.9 Billion. ;)
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Yes and so does any honest scholar.

Look at the whole of his work, to believe other than what I (simonthezealot) showed above would make cyprian out to be an idiot.

check this out...
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.iv.lxxiv.html?highlight=that%20concerning%20the%20celebration%20of%20easter#highlight

...specifically #6...
6. But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles; any one may know also from the fact, that concerning the celebration of Easter, and concerning many other sacraments of divine matters, he may see that there are some diversities among them, and that all things are not observed among them alike, which are observed at Jerusalem, just as in very many other provinces also many things are varied because of the difference of the places and names. And yet on this account there is no departure at all from the peace and unity of the Catholic Church, such as Stephen has now dared to make; breaking the peace against you, which his predecessors have always kept with you in mutual love and honour, even herein defaming Peter and Paul the blessed apostles

I have used and recommended your source to a "non-denominational" friend. But I do not find it "objective".

I do not know if we have such a thing as a completely "objective" source on the web???


Let me dig up some of Cyprian's work and post where I see conformity to my sources claim...
 
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myfavoritmartin

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I have used and recommended your source to a "non-denominational" friend. But I do not find it "objective".

I do not know if we have such a thing as a completely "objective" source on the web???


Let me dig up some of Cyprian's work and post where I see conformity to my sources claim...
Jack that university is the most objective source on the internet for early writers, they NEVER hide the fact that their exists interpolations...They sight sources and are certainly more transparent than any others.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Simon I know you hate cut and paste jobs but humor me for this one (or just skip over it):

CHURCH UNITY



About the time of the opening of the council (251), two letters arrived from Rome. One of these, announcing the election of a pope, St. Cornelius, was read by Cyprian to the assembly; the other contained such violent and improbable accusations against the new pope that he thought it better to pass it over. But two bishops, Caldonius and Fortunatus, were dispatched to Rome for further information, and the whole council was to await their return-such was the importance of a papal election. Meantime another message arrived with the news that Novatian, the most eminent among the Roman clergy, had been made pope. Happily two African prelates, Pompeius and Stephanus, who had been present at the election of Cornelius, arrived also, and were able to testify that he had been validly set "in the place of Peter", when as yet there was no other claimant. It was thus possible to reply to the recrimination of Novatian's envoys, and a short letter was sent to Rome, explaining the discussion which had taken place in the council. Soon afterwards came the report of Caldonius and Fortunatus together with a letter from Cornelius, in which the latter complained somewhat of the delay in recognizing him. Cyprian wrote to Cornelius explaining his prudent conduct. He added a letter to the confessors who were the main support of the antipope, leaving it to Cornelius whether it should be delivered or no. He sent also copies of his two treatises, "De Unitate" and "De Lapsis" (this had been composed by him immediately after the other), and he wishes the confessors to read these in order that they may understand what a fearful thing is schism. It is in this copy of the "De Unitate" that Cyprian appears most probably to have added in the margin an alternative version of the fourth chapter. The original passage, as found in most manuscripts and as printed in Hartel's edition, runs thus:
If any will consider this, there is no need of a long treatise and of arguments. 'The Lord saith to Peter: 'I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; to thee I will give the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and what thou shalt have bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, and what thou shalt have loosed shall be loosed in heaven.' Upon one He builds His Church, and though to all His Apostles after His resurrection He gives an equal power and says: 'As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you: Receive the Holy Ghost, whosesoever sins you shall have remitted they shall be remitted unto them, and whosesoever sins you shall have retained they shall be retained', yet that He might make unity manifest, He disposed the origin of that unity beginning from one. The other Apostles were indeed what Peter was, endowed with a like fellowship both of honour and of power, but the commencement proceeds from one, that the Church may be shown to be one. This one Church the Holy Ghost in the person of the Lord designates in the Canticle of Canticles, and says, One is My Dove, My perfect one, one is she to her mother, one to her that bare her. He that holds not this unity of the Church, does he believe that he holds the Faith? He who strives against and resists the Church, is he confident that he is in the Church?
The substituted passage is as follows:
. . . bound in heaven. Upon one He builds His Church, and to the same He says after His resurrection, 'feed My sheep'. And though to all His Apostles He gave an equal power yet did He set up one chair, and disposed the origin and manner of unity by his authority. The other Apostles were indeed what Peter was, but the primacy is given to Peter, and the Church and the chair is shown to be one. And all are pastors, but the flock is shown to be one, which is fed by all the Apostles with one mind and heart. He that holds not this unity of the Church, does he think that he holds the faith? He who deserts the chair of Peter, upon whom the Church is founded, is he confident that he is in the Church?
These alternative versions are given one after the other in the chief family of manuscripts which contains them, while in some other families the two have been partially or wholly combined into one. The combined version is the one which has been printed in man editions, and has played a large part in controversy with Protestants. It is of course spurious in this conflated form, but the alternative form given above is not only found in eighth- and ninth-century manuscripts, but it is quoted by Bede, by Gregory the Great (in a letter written for his predecessor Pelagius II), and by St. Gelasius; indeed, it was almost certainly known to St. Jerome and St. Optatus in the fourth century. The evidence of the manuscripts would indicate an equally early date. Every expression and thought in the passage can be paralleled from St. Cyprian's habitual language, and it seems to be now generally admitted that this alternative passage is an alteration made by the author himself when forwarding his work to the Roman confessors. The "one chair" is always in Cyprian the episcopal chair, and Cyprian has been careful to emphasize this point, and to add a reference to the other great Petrine text, the Charge in John, xxi. The assertion of the equality of the Apostles as Apostles remains, and the omissions are only for the sake of brevity. The old contention that it is a Roman forgery is at all events quite out of the question. Another passage is also altered in all the same manuscripts which contain the "interpolation"; it is a paragraph in which the humble and pious conduct of the lapsed "on this hand (hic) is contrasted in a long succession of parallels with the pride and wickedness of the schismatics "on that hand" (illic), but in the delicate manner of the treatise the latter are only referred to in a general way. In the "interpolated" manuscripts we find that the lapsed, whose caused had now been settled by the council, are "on that hand" (illic), whereas the reference to the schismatics -- meaning the Roman confessors who were supporting Novatian, and to whom the book was being sent -- are made as pointed as possible, being brought into the foreground by the repeated hic, "on this hand".


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04583b.htm
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Jack that university is the most objective source on the internet for early writers, they NEVER hide the fact that their exists interpolations...They sight sources and are certainly more transparent than any others.

And so I have used them and recommended them before.

No problem with using them but I will not use them exclusively, is all.:)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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He who deserts the chair of Peter, upon whom the Church is founded, is he confident that he is in the Church?
I deserted the "chair of Peter" and I am confident I am in the Church.

Jeremiah 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith YHWH", and N@buwkadne'tstsar
the king of Babel, My Servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

Reve 9:11 and they are having on them a king, the messenger of the abyss, name to him to-Hebrew, Abaddon/abaddwn <3>, and in the greecian name he is having Destroyer/Ruiner/apolluwn <623>.
 
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Trento

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Jack, you know that when looking for an understanding of comments or thoughts made by others, a good policy is to always to let the clearest points interpret the others. Cyprian makes some very pointed ones relative to if a singular office such as a Papacy was acknowledged between them.

Schismatics from Carthage went to Rome to join the schism of Novatian there. Cyprian denounced the wickedness of the Novatians in Rome and spoke scornfully of the Carthaginian schismatics who had gone to Rome, "the chair of Peter and to the principal [or ruling] church, whence episcopal unity has taken its rise."
Obviously Cyprian did not regard his own see, Carthage, as "the" or "a" chair of Peter. He said the schismatics who went to Rome were going to "the chair of Peter."

This "chair of Peter," said Cyprian, is "the principal Church." Irenaeus had used these same words about Rome.
Tertullian had defined the phrase to mean "that which is over anything, as the soul presides over and rules the body." Cyprian called Tertullian his "master" and read his writings every day. We can assume that he followed his master in using "principal" to mean "sovereign ruling."

Speaking of the schismatics who had gone to Rome, Cyprian said, in effect, Not only is Rome the source of the Church’s unity ("whence episcopal unity has taken its rise"), the schismatics are wasting their time because the Romans—the "chair of Peter," the pope—are "they to whom faithlessness can have no access." This is an inportant statement inportant , that is, outside the context of papal infallibility. But we must assume that Cyprian meant what he said.
In practice Cyprian contradicted his own teaching about the independence of each bishop. When Marcion, bishop of Arles, left the Church’s communion and joined the schismatic Novatians, the bishops of the province wrote to the pope asking him to take action. (If they were independent of Rome, why did they not take action themselves?) The action required was for the pope to excommunicate Marcion and appoint a replacement. For unknown reasons, the pope delayed his response. Faustinus, bishop of Lyons, wrote to Cyprian about the matter, seeking his advice.

Cyprian thereupon wrote to the pope, urging him to take action. His letter implies that the pope was the one—the only one—to set matters straight in Arles. He urged the pope to write "letters of plenary authority [literally ‘most full letters’] by means of which, Marcion being excommunicated, another may be substituted in his place."
 
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myfavoritmartin

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http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf... open and manifest folly of stephen#highlight


17. And in this respect I am justly indignant at this so open and manifest folly of Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter,31 on whom the foundations of the Church were laid, should introduce many other rocks and establish new buildings of many churches; maintaining that there is baptism in them by his authority. For they who are baptized, doubtless, fill up the number of the Church. But he who approves their baptism maintains, of those baptized, that the Church is also with them. Nor does he understand that the truth of the Christian Rock is overshadowed, and in some measure abolished, by him when he thus betrays and deserts unity.
19. But with respect to the refutation of custom which they seem to oppose to the truth, who is so foolish as to prefer custom to truth, or when he sees the light, not to forsake the darkness?—unless most ancient custom in any respect avail the Jews, upon the advent of Christ, that is, the Truth, in remaining in their old usage, and forsaking the new way of truth. And this indeed you Africans are able to say against Stephen, that when you knew the truth you forsook the error of custom. But we join custom to truth, and to the Romans' custom we oppose custom, but the custom of truth; holding from the beginning that which was delivered by Christ and the apostles
 
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Catholic Christian

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...their numbers are as of the sand of the sea.....
GOD'S HOUSE IS A BIG HOUSE ALRIGHT.

Basilica.gif
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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GOD'S HOUSE IS A BIG HOUSE ALRIGHT.

Basilica.gif
Can ya spare a plane ticket so I can worship in it before the Day of the Lord comes. :bow:

Zeph 1:15 That day [is] a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers.
 
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Catholic Christian

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Can ya spare a plane ticket so I can worship in it before the Day of the Lord comes.....
If you go with me I'll buy two.

You should watch the special broadcasts on EWTN of Masses from St Peter's. They are quite beautiful.

52636886.jpg
 
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TraderJack

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Can ya spare a plane ticket so I can worship in it before the Day of the Lord comes. :bow:

Zeph 1:15 That day [is] a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers.

I hear it's in need of repairs, so pull out your wallet to make a hefty donation for an "indulgence" as a reward for making a pilgrimage to St. Peter's. But remember, the sale of indugences never happened, so some say now.;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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TraderJack

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Originally Posted by EmperorConstantine
Just because something was not written does not mean that it never happened.


And the reverse is true too: because something was written does not mean it ever happened.....

Considering the fact of an enourmous amount of forgeries and documents purported to be "Apostolic" when in fact they were frauds, early church fathers and writers who often contradicted each other, as well as recordings of people and events that were slanted propaganda, which in many cases the Roman church has relied on as "genuine", such as the Gnostic forgeries that produced the Roman dogmas of the immaculate conception and assumption of Mary, ie- Transitus Beatae Mariae of Pseudo–Melito’ ,then it becomes glaringly obvious that the Scriptures are the only truly reliable source for matters of faith and morals.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Putting aside your sarcasm (which I'm pretty used to) for a moment, do you know how the funds were raised to restore Michaelangelo's painting in the Sistine Chapel?
Our church raised enough funds to buy 2 more ceilings fans and 2 more rows of pews. :clap:
 
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