Here’s why Pope Francis is wrong to say Muslims and Catholics worship the same God

Michie

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That's my question -- what is the line.

If people have to acknowledge Jesus to worship God then we would have to conclude that the Jews don't worship the same God either. It's why I can't understand why people want to draw the line and say Muslims don't worship the same God but then think Jews do.
It’s a good question. There is truth to be found even in false belief systems. But Jesus said there is no way to the Father but through Him. It makes it hard to understand where the Church is coming from. I believe we can worship certain aspects of God in common but we do not worship the same God is His entirety. It does not really make it the same God in my view. I don’t know how it could be.
 
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JSRG

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Do not people have to acknowledge Jesus to worship God? There is a big difference for those that have never heard and those that have. I don’t think Burke is going full tilt here but there are certain things that cannot be ignored.
As noted before, not according to the Catechism of Pius X:

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?
A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.

12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.


Source: Catechism of St. Pius X | EWTN

To be honest I find this debate largely pointless. All seem to agree that Muslims have some very incorrect ideas about God and that they would fall into the "infidel" category mentioned above (most likely one would not use the term "infidel" nowadays but the substance behind it applies). Does it particularly matter at that point which of the two sub-categories they technically fall into?

As for Burke, his arguments on this point, at least those mentioned in the article, seem rather weak. It essentially amounts to saying that Islam has incorrect teachings that it attributes to God, and thus that makes it a different God... by which logic every non-Catholic denomination does not believe in the same God as Catholics do. For example, from the article you linked:

"And the point I wanted to come to is this, I don’t believe it’s true that we’re all worshipping the same God, because the God of Islam is a governor. In other words, fundamentally Islam is, Sharia is their law, and that law, which comes from Allah, must dominate every man eventually.

“And it’s not a law that’s founded on love. To say that we all believe in love is simply not correct. And while our experience may be with individual Muslims may be one of people who are gentle and kind and so forth, we have to understand that in the end what they believe most deeply, that to which they ascribe in their hearts, demands that they govern the world. Whereas, in the Christian faith we’re taught that by the development of right reason, by sound metaphysics, and then that which leads to faith and to the light and strength that’s given by faith, we make our contribution to society also in terms of its governance, but the Church makes no pretense that it’s to govern the world, but rather that it’s to inspire and assist those who govern the world to act justly and rightly toward the citizens.”"

What he describes seems no different from what Christian theonomists suggest. Do they therefore believe in a different God?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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As noted before, not according to the Catechism of Pius X:

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?
A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.

12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.


Source: Catechism of St. Pius X | EWTN

To be honest I find this debate largely pointless. All seem to agree that Muslims have some very incorrect ideas about God and that they would fall into the "infidel" category mentioned above (most likely one would not use the term "infidel" nowadays but the substance behind it applies). Does it particularly matter at that point which of the two sub-categories they technically fall into?

As for Burke, his arguments on this point, at least those mentioned in the article, seem rather weak. It essentially amounts to saying that Islam has incorrect teachings that it attributes to God, and thus that makes it a different God... by which logic every non-Catholic denomination does not believe in the same God as Catholics do. For example, from the article you linked:

"And the point I wanted to come to is this, I don’t believe it’s true that we’re all worshipping the same God, because the God of Islam is a governor. In other words, fundamentally Islam is, Sharia is their law, and that law, which comes from Allah, must dominate every man eventually.

“And it’s not a law that’s founded on love. To say that we all believe in love is simply not correct. And while our experience may be with individual Muslims may be one of people who are gentle and kind and so forth, we have to understand that in the end what they believe most deeply, that to which they ascribe in their hearts, demands that they govern the world. Whereas, in the Christian faith we’re taught that by the development of right reason, by sound metaphysics, and then that which leads to faith and to the light and strength that’s given by faith, we make our contribution to society also in terms of its governance, but the Church makes no pretense that it’s to govern the world, but rather that it’s to inspire and assist those who govern the world to act justly and rightly toward the citizens.”"

What he describes seems no different from what Christian theonomists suggest. Do they therefore believe in a different God?
The Church has updated the Catechism. Why use an older version with teachings that the Church no longer
upholds? Should we go back to the days when we shunned non-Catholics?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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It’s a good question. There is truth to be found even in false belief systems. But Jesus said there is no way to the Father but through Him. It makes it hard to understand where the Church is coming from. I believe we can worship certain aspects of God in common but we do not worship the same God is His entirety. It does not really make it the same God in my view. I don’t know how it could be.
When Jesus said that there is no way to the Father except through Him, he didn't mean only those who
knew him or have faith in him.

Those, through not fault of their own, can be saved through the mercy of God. Still, all still go through
the salvific act give by Christ and receive His mercy, regardless.

Lets face it, we Christians haven't always done a good job in presenting the Gospel message given to us.
 
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narnia59

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As noted before, not according to the Catechism of Pius X:

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?
A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.

12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.


Source: Catechism of St. Pius X | EWTN

To be honest I find this debate largely pointless. All seem to agree that Muslims have some very incorrect ideas about God and that they would fall into the "infidel" category mentioned above (most likely one would not use the term "infidel" nowadays but the substance behind it applies). Does it particularly matter at that point which of the two sub-categories they technically fall into?

As for Burke, his arguments on this point, at least those mentioned in the article, seem rather weak. It essentially amounts to saying that Islam has incorrect teachings that it attributes to God, and thus that makes it a different God... by which logic every non-Catholic denomination does not believe in the same God as Catholics do. For example, from the article you linked:

"And the point I wanted to come to is this, I don’t believe it’s true that we’re all worshipping the same God, because the God of Islam is a governor. In other words, fundamentally Islam is, Sharia is their law, and that law, which comes from Allah, must dominate every man eventually.

“And it’s not a law that’s founded on love. To say that we all believe in love is simply not correct. And while our experience may be with individual Muslims may be one of people who are gentle and kind and so forth, we have to understand that in the end what they believe most deeply, that to which they ascribe in their hearts, demands that they govern the world. Whereas, in the Christian faith we’re taught that by the development of right reason, by sound metaphysics, and then that which leads to faith and to the light and strength that’s given by faith, we make our contribution to society also in terms of its governance, but the Church makes no pretense that it’s to govern the world, but rather that it’s to inspire and assist those who govern the world to act justly and rightly toward the citizens.”"

What he describes seems no different from what Christian theonomists suggest. Do they therefore believe in a different God?
It's pointless to me with the exception that we have the Catechism and popes who have made a statement on this matter. The line they've drawn in determining if someone is worshipping the one true God is if they profess the God of Abraham. But as with many things people want to pick and choose from what the Church teaches instead of just accept it.
 
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narnia59

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It’s a good question. There is truth to be found even in false belief systems. But Jesus said there is no way to the Father but through Him. It makes it hard to understand where the Church is coming from. I believe we can worship certain aspects of God in common but we do not worship the same God is His entirety. It does not really make it the same God in my view. I don’t know how it could be.
How close do we have to be to having a perfect understanding of God in order to worship Him? Did the Jews not worship the one true God in the Old Testament even though they had no knowledge he was Trinity or no knowledge of Christ?

It seems to me the Church had drawn the line -- if you profess and worship the God of Abraham you are worshipping the one true God. That still in no ways implies that Muslims, or Jews, or even some other Christians have a correct understanding of who God is. Evidently the Church does not believe that you have to correctly understand God in order to worship Him, at least in some sense.

The Church is also clear that the only way to be saved is through Christ. There is indeed no way to Father but through Christ.

However, the Church leaves room that we may not know all the different ways a person may come to Christ. Some may come to Christ without have a conscience recognition that's who they've chosen until they meet him face to face. It's why be believe someone who has never even formally heard of Christ could be saved.
 
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narnia59

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The Church has updated the Catechism. Why use an older version with teachings that the Church no longer
upholds? Should we go back to the days when we shunned non-Catholics?
I think the point is that the understanding that Muslims worship the same God we do isn't a Vatican II invention. At least that's what I appreciated from the post.
 
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narnia59

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FYI, the OP article comes from Lifesitenews, which isn't Catholic and doesn't
speak for the Catholic Church.
Lifesitenews isn't a news organization at all imo; it's an editorial organization that wants to sway thinking to align with their own.

Unfortunately that describes a great majority of "news" organizations though doesn't it?

At any rate, I have found them to have an agenda more than most news organizations that have an association with Catholicism. They're kind of the flip side to the National Catholic Reporter for me. I rarely take anything I read from them to heart (at least more than the basic facts). I always look to verify somewhere else.
 
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Michie

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Lifesitenews isn't a news organization at all imo; it's an editorial organization that wants to sway thinking to align with their own.

Unfortunately that describes a great majority of "news" organizations though doesn't it?

At any rate, I have found them to have an agenda more than most news organizations that have an association with Catholicism. They're kind of the flip side to the National Catholic Reporter for me. I rarely take anything I read from them to heart (at least more than the basic facts). I always look to verify somewhere else.
Well it’s nice it started this conversation though. I often find what LSN report at other news organizations as well. I have no issues with them.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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It may not be your opinion that LSN is not a news organization, but the word, "news," is used in their
title.

When Catholic Answers had forums, they came close to banning articles from LSN, after several
articles they had written, were found to be misleading and some were on the edge of being anti-Catholic.
Lately, they definitely don't like Pope Francis, but many in this site don't either.
 
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Michie

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It may not be your opinion that LSN is not a news organization, but the word, "news," is used in their
title.

When Catholic Answers had forums, they came close to banning articles from LSN, after several
articles they had written, were found to be misleading and some were on the edge of being anti-Catholic.
Lately, they definitely don't like Pope Francis, but many in this site don't either.
You know Jim, I’d take you more seriously if you ever commented on the good things posted in this forum. But alas, during this latest return after dusting your sandals for the umpteenth time, you are back with your bone to pick with me. There are many Catholics and clergy that contribute to LSN, like it or not. You could ignore it if so inclined but obviously you can’t help yourself. There is a big difference between disagreement and dislike. We are allowed to disagree with any pope’s opinion.

You were banned from Catholic Answers forums as you often remind us. Did they ever ban LSN?
 
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JSRG

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The Church has updated the Catechism. Why use an older version with teachings that the Church no longer
upholds? Should we go back to the days when we shunned non-Catholics?
This response confuses me greatly. First, the "updated Catechism" (Catechism of the Catholic Church) says (point 841) that the Muslims "profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Aside from being a little more polite about it in phrasing (not using the term "infidel"), what exactly has changed compared to the Catechism of Pius X that I cited?

Second, the whole reason I was appealing to the Catechism of Pius X, aside from the fact it explicitly entreats upon the subject, is because some were suggesting that the idea that Muslims worship the same god as Catholics was some new thing that either Francis or the Catechism of the Catholic Church came up with, so I was pointing to an earlier notable catechism that said the same thing.

So I'm very confused as to why you object to me using an older catechism rather than a newer one.
 
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narnia59

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Well it’s nice it started this conversation though. I often find what LSN report at other news organizations as well. I have no issues with them.
It definitely started a conversation :)

I generally don't question their facts. But they do editorialize a lot and I definitely think they want to skew things to a specific perspective. I have found times when they've left out some facts because they don't fit the narrative they're trying to create.

Just like the title of that article. Why Pope Francis is wrong about saying that about the Muslims. They know a lot of people won't read beyond the title, so they've created that view in the minds of many.. Then when you read the article it mentions other popes have said the same thing, and then basically say the same thing is true about Jews and any non-Catholics. They're trying to make people think a certain way. And none of it is consistent with Catholic teaching, but they cite people that could make a person think it is, and that Pope Francis is outside the bounds of Catholic teaching on this. He simply isn't.

But like I said, that's true of a great number of organizations that call themselves news at this point in time. I don't think they're particular unique in that regard. It's just good to be aware of whatever narrative people are trying to create to influence by calling it news.
 
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Michie

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It definitely started a conversation :)

I generally don't question their facts. But they do editorialize a lot and I definitely think they want to skew things to a specific perspective. I have found times when they've left out some facts because they don't fit the narrative they're trying to create.

Just like the title of that article. Why Pope Francis is wrong about saying that about the Muslims. They know a lot of people won't read beyond the title, so they've created that view in the minds of many.. Then when you read the article it mentions other popes have said the same thing, and then basically say the same thing is true about Jews and any non-Catholics. They're trying to make people think a certain way. And none of it is consistent with Catholic teaching, but they cite people that could make a person think it is, and that Pope Francis is outside the bounds of Catholic teaching on this. He simply isn't.

But like I said, that's true of a great number of organizations that call themselves news at this point in time. I don't think they're particular unique in that regard. It's just good to be aware of whatever narrative people are trying to create to influence by calling it news.
I tend to give people more credit than just reading the title. If it’s an opinion piece like this is with some references, it is what it is. Current events they report on can be found at other news sites. Oftentimes, mainstream media tends to ignore a lot of what is happening if it does not fit their agenda And grudgingly bring it out maybe a week later. So it’s really the pot calling the kettle black. Same thing wherever you go.
 
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narnia59

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I tend to give people more credit than just reading the title. If it’s an opinion piece like this is with some references, it is what it is. Current events they report on can be found at other news sites. Oftentimes, mainstream media tends to ignore a lot of what is happening if it does not fit their agenda And grudgingly bring it out maybe a week water. So it’s really the pot calling the kettle black. Same thing wherever you go.
A large part of the way the mainstream media influences people is by what they choose not to cover. You're absolutely right about that.

But if you ever read comments on articles it's pretty clear to me that the great majority of people only read the title and not the article.
 
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Michie

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A large part of the way the mainstream media influences people is by what they choose not to cover. You're absolutely right about that.

But if you ever read comments on articles it's pretty clear to me that the great majority of people only read the title and not the article.
Well who’s to blame for that?
 
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Lady Bug

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That's my question -- what is the line.

If people have to acknowledge Jesus to worship God then we would have to conclude that the Jews don't worship the same God either. It's why I can't understand why people want to draw the line and say Muslims don't worship the same God but then think Jews do.
Well, do we *have* to say that modern-day Jews believe in the same God? Maybe they don't either.
 
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narnia59

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Well who’s to blame for that?
The people themselves. But knowing that's the way people are, "news" organizations take advantage by creating headlines that tell people what they want them to believe, even if the headline isn't substantiated by the article. Not exactly a sign of integrity.
 
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