Here’s why Pope Francis is wrong to say Muslims and Catholics worship the same God

[concretecamper]

Seems like the guys at Catholic Answers have heard your claim before:

Some will say this declaration does not indicate Muslims believe in the same God we do because it only says “Muslims… profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” not that they actually do. So what gives?

And their answer:
However, it is a distortion to claim from this that Muslims do not truly believe in the one true God because it was clearly after having said Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham,” that the Council fathers then declared: “… together with us they adore the one, merciful God…”

Seems like a lot of people don't agree with your take on this. I agree with Catholic Answers here, what you try to make the catechism say is a distortion.

Even Catholic Answers doesn't have the ability to say we worship the SAME God. Go ahead and believe them, you are free to do so. For me, I'll wait for the time the Magisterium can say explicitly that we worship the SAME God. Until then, I'm not gonna add meaning to what is written.

Also, I'll put my money on what Cardinal Burke has to say about the matter.

 

[narnia59]

Even Catholic Answers doesn't have the ability to say we worship the SAME God. Go ahead and believe them, you are free to do so. For me, I'll wait for the time the Magisterium can say explicitly that we worship the SAME God. Until then, I'm not gonna add meaning to what is written.

Also, I'll put my money on what Cardinal Burke has to say about the matter.

Cardinal Burke does not deny that the Vatican II documents teach that we worship the same God, he just says they're wrong. Which is something he does not have the authority to do.

No matter what opinion I want to take that doesn't align with Church teaching, odds are I can find at least one bishop to point to who will agree with me. It doesn't matter. No singular bishop is the teaching authority of the universal Church. That is the pope and the collective of bishops in union with him. What matters is what they say. And they've spoken through the Vatican II documents and the Catechism.

 

[concretecamper]

Cardinal Burke does not deny that the Vatican II documents teach that we worship the same God, he just says they're wrong. Which is something he does not have the authority to do.

No matter what opinion I want to take that doesn't align with Church teaching, odds are I can find at least one bishop to point to who will agree with me. It doesn't matter. No singular bishop is the teaching authority of the universal Church. That is the pope and the collective of bishops in union with him. What matters is what they say. And they've spoken through the Vatican II documents and the Catechism.

I'm fine with you thinking I am wrong. It seems you are not fine with me thinking YOU are wrong.

When the Magisterium says that Catholics and Muslims adore or worship the SAME God, I'll accept it. Until then, Ill hold to my position.

 

[narnia59]

I'm fine with you thinking I am wrong. It seems you are not fine with me thinking YOU are wrong.

When the Magisterium says that Catholics and Muslims adore or worship the SAME God, I'll accept it. Until then, Ill hold to my position.

I couldn't care less if you think I'm right or wrong.

I do take issue when Catholics present their own views in opposition to Catholic teaching, whether it's a random internet poster or a cardinal of the Church.

The Magisterium has said that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. Probably the Vatican II document NOSTRA AETATE says it most clearly when speaking about the Muslims -- "They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth".

So, they've spoken, and quite clearly on more than on occasion and in more than one document. But I doubt you will ever accept it.

 

[concretecamper]

I do take issue when Catholics present their own views in opposition to Catholic teaching, whether it's a random internet poster or a cardinal of the Church.

Your view IS NOT what the CCC says. That is the point.

The Magisterium has said that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.

No they have not. That is YOUR interpretation of the CCC.

To summarize, you have your interpretation of the CCC and Catholic Answers. I have my interpretation of the CCC and Cardinal Burke. Guess who wins.

 

[narnia59]

Your view IS NOT what the CCC says. That is the point.

No they have not. That is YOUR interpretation of the CCC.

To summarize, you have your interpretation of the CCC and Catholic Answers. I have my interpretation of the CCC and Cardinal Burke. Guess who wins.

I'll raise you about 4 popes.

Since NOSTRA AETATE says about the Muslims "They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth," AND since you insist that doesn't mean we worship the same God, the only reasonable conclusion is you do not believe that Catholics adore "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth." Just exactly what God do you believe the Catholics adore then?

 

[concretecamper]

Since NOSTRA AETATE says about the Muslims "They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth

Nothing different here than what the CCC says.

 

[narnia59]

Nothing different here than what the CCC says.

Yeah, it says that they adore "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth" and you say we don't adore "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth," so it does make me wonder about what God you actually do adore.

 

[concretecamper]

so it does make me wonder about what God you actually do adore.

I adore the One true God, unlike Muslims.

Again: you and your interpretation and Catholic Answers vs my interpretation and Cardinal Burke. Guess who wins!

Anything new to add? Or are you gonna repeat the same talking points?

 

[narnia59]

I adore the One true God, unlike Muslims.

Let's follow the logic here:

1) Nostra Aetate states that the Muslims adore "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth"

2) You state that you do not worship the same God as the Muslims.

3) Logical conclusion -- you state that you do not adore "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth."

Who is this "one true God" you claim to worship that is not "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth"?

Again: you and your interpretation and Catholic Answers vs my interpretation and Cardinal Burke. Guess who wins!

Anything new to add? Or are you gonna repeat the same talking points?

Who wins are the popes -- Pius X, Benedict XVI, John Paul II and Francis and the collective of bishops at Vatican II. Not Cardinal Burke.

And you are Cardinal Burke are not aligned. Yes, you both profess that Catholics and Muslims do not worship the same God. But he is honest enough to admit that he's disagreeing with the teaching of the Church. He admits that Nostra Aetate states that we worship the same God -- he just says it's not a dogmatic document. He doesn't try to play word games to get around that fact.

Unfortunately for his perspective is that understanding was included in the Catechism, which is authoritative. Pope Benedict XVI chaired the commission who authored the catechism, and Pope John Paul II declared it to be a "sure norm for teaching the faith," and an "authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine."

 

[concretecamper]

Let's follow the logic here:

1) Nostra Aetate states that the Muslims adore "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth"

2) You state that you do not worship the same God as the Muslims.

3) Logical conclusion -- you state that you do not adore "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth."

Who is this "one true God" you claim to worship that is not "the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth"?



Who wins are the popes -- Pius X, Benedict XVI, John Paul II and Francis and the collective of bishops at Vatican II. Not Cardinal Burke.

And you are Cardinal Burke are not aligned. Yes, you both profess that Catholics and Muslims do not worship the same God. But he is honest enough to admit that he's disagreeing with the teaching of the Church. He admits that Nostra Aetate states that we worship the same God -- he just says it's not a dogmatic document. He doesn't try to play word games to get around that fact.

Unfortunately for his perspective is that understanding was included in the Catechism, which is authoritative. Pope Benedict XVI chaired the commission who authored the catechism, and Pope John Paul II declared it to be a "sure norm for teaching the faith," and an "authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine."

You are wrong, period.