Abraham1st
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everyone has their own sin, Ezekiel cant testify what Adam has done, or what Romans 5 talks of relating to Adam.
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everyone has their own sin, Ezekiel cant testify what Adam has done, or what Romans 5 talks of relating to Adam.It's not about what we need, it's about what God reveals and does (Ro 5:17-19), and our obligation to believe and agree with him.
Clare73, i dont mind if you dont want to go into this in detail with me, but please if you are not, avoid commenting, thanks for your understanding.It's not about what we need, it's about what God reveals and does (Ro 5:17-19), and our obligation to believe and agree with him.
No, you inserted "imputation" into the whole narrative. Rom 5:12 sheds light on a somewhat confusing statement in 5:14:Ro 5:14 - "death reigned over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam (that's imputation of Adam's sin) who was a pattern (of the imputation of the righteousness) of the one to come."
You haven’t demonstrated that at all. Rom 5:18-19 shows clearly that man became a sinner (unrighteous) due to Adam’s sin, and man may now become righteous due to Jesus’ righteousness. This is the reason why “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.” (Rom 8:1) As man becomes righteous by the merits of Christ, there’s nothing to condemn him for-so he may now live!The imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern for the imputation for Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).
We have no basis for Scriptural discussion.everyone has their own sin, Ezekiel cant testify what Adam has done, or what Romans 5 talks of relating to Adam.
First, how does Eze 18:20 resolve anything here to begin with? If man is guilty and therefore culpable/accountable for Adam’s sin, whether by “imputation” or because he shares personally in the rebellion, then he’s “bearing the guilt of the father”-and suffering the consequences. Man must be reborn, made a new creation, in order to be freed from the state of original sin, no longer an enemy of God, no longer a slave to the sin that earns him death, now grafted into the Vine, the source of true righteousess, that gives him life!Feel free to Biblically demonstrate the error in my post #336, following:
"We don't 'become inherently guilty of possessing someone else's sin' (Eze 18:20),
nor are we acquitted of inheriting/possessing someone else's sin that we don't possess.
Guilt of someone else's sin must be imputed to us (Ro 5:17), charged to our account,
as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6), charged to his account, it was not inherited.
Humanity became guilty of Adam's sin by imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17,
the only sin that caused death between Adam and Moses, Ro 5:14, when there was no law to sin against to cause man's death, Ro 4:15), just as humanity becomes righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).
Both guilt of Adam's sin and righteouness of Christ are imputed to mankind (Ro 5:18-19)."
First, address what is on the table. . .i.e., Biblically demonstrate the error of my post #336, then we will go from there.
Both. . .No, you inserted "imputation" into the whole narrative. Rom 5:12 sheds light on a somewhat confusing statement in 5:14:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"
So was death the consequence of sin, or was sin imputed?
The issue in Eze 18:20 is inheritance of sin.First, how does Eze 18:20 resolve anything here to begin with? If man is guilty and therefore culpable/accountable for Adam’s sin, whether by “imputation” or because he shares personally in the rebellion, then he’s “bearing the guilt of the father”-
No Biblical demonstration of error in post #366, presenting the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19), was presented in post #368.Addressed in post #368.
Which did not include a demonstration of error in post #366.Post #368 summarized what was already demonstrated.
Ok, so what Paul is meaning to say is that, when Cain slew Abel it was not sinful. In fact, since sin would've only been imputed to Cain to begin with, then he was still innocent, doing God's will as He intended for man; the Fall had no negative effect on Cain morally since it didn't make him unrighteous anyway-it just declared him to be unrighteous. And even tho you agree that Adam's offspring were held accountable/guilty for a sin they didn't commit, you somehow still maintain that they didn't bear the guilt of their faither's sin.I.The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
Sin is transgression of the law (Ro 4:3).
Where there is no law, there is no transgression/sin (Ro 4:15).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died.
Of what sin/trangression did they die? (Ro 5:14).
They died of the imputed sin of Adam to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19, 13-14, just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham, Ge 15:6, and is imputed to all those of Christ, Ro 5:18-19).
II. The rest of unbelieving mankind dies, in addition, for his own sin/transgression of the law.
It's not about "sin," it's about the law, and transgression of the law (which is sin, Ro 4:3) and, therefore, subjection to the law's curse of death..Ok, so what Paul is meaning to say is that, when Cain slew Abel it was not sinful.
God's imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:14) is imputation of guilt, as demonstrated in the deaths of those between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to transgress and to incur guilt to cause their deaths.In fact, since sin would've only been imputed to Cain to begin with, then he was still innocent,
Best summation I have heard in a long time.
So are you saying that there was no personal unrighteousness in Cain that caused him to slay Abel? That was only part of the goodness that God created him in? The Fall had no negative effect on man vis a vis righteousness? He did not become a sinner due to Adam's sin? I mean, how does that work?It's not about "sin," it's about the law, and transgression of the law (which is sin, Ro 4:3) and, therefore, subjection to the law's curse of death..
Where there is no law, there is no sin. (Ro 4:15) and, therefore, no curse of death.
And yet, they all died anyway between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress, to sin against.
Of what sin did they die?
They died of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19), which imputed sin of Adam was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteosness of Christ.
Paul is demonstrating the imputed sin of Adam to all mankind in Ro 5:12-19, where between Adam and Moses there was no sin because there was no law and no death for its violation, yet they all died anyway. . .because of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17).
God's imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:14) is imputation of guilt, as demonstrated in the deaths of those between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to transgress and to incur guilt to cause their deaths.
Cain was guilty of Adam's sin by imputation, as is all mankind (Ro 5:17), which is why all mankind died between Adam and Moses when there was no personal guilt of transgression/sin to condemn them to death (Ro 5:12-19).
And you're still not answering the question about Eze 18:20. You apparently agree that Adam's offspring were held accountable/guilty for a sin they didn't commit:It's not about "sin," it's about the law, and transgression of the law (which is sin, Ro 4:3) and, therefore, subjection to the law's curse of death..
Where there is no law, there is no sin. (Ro 4:15) and, therefore, no curse of death.
And yet, they all died anyway between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress, to sin against.
Of what sin did they die?
They died of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19), which imputed sin of Adam was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteosness of Christ.
Paul is demonstrating the imputed sin of Adam to all mankind in Ro 5:12-19, where between Adam and Moses there was no sin because there was no law and no death for its violation, yet they all died anyway. . .because of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17).
God's imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:14) is imputation of guilt, as demonstrated in the deaths of those between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to transgress and to incur guilt to cause their deaths.
Cain was guilty of Adam's sin by imputation, as is all mankind (Ro 5:17), which is why all mankind died between Adam and Moses when there was no personal guilt of transgression/sin to condemn them to death (Ro 5:12-19).
Man is dying for guilt imputed to him by God
God's imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:14) is imputation of guilt,
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