Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security

[Abraham1st]

It's not about what we need, it's about what God reveals and does (Ro 5:17-19), and our obligation to believe and agree with him.

everyone has their own sin, Ezekiel cant testify what Adam has done, or what Romans 5 talks of relating to Adam.

 

[Abraham1st]

It's not about what we need, it's about what God reveals and does (Ro 5:17-19), and our obligation to believe and agree with him.

Clare73, i dont mind if you dont want to go into this in detail with me, but please if you are not, avoid commenting, thanks for your understanding.

 

[fhansen]

Ro 5:14 - "death reigned over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam (that's imputation of Adam's sin) who was a pattern (of the imputation of the righteousness) of the one to come."

No, you inserted "imputation" into the whole narrative. Rom 5:12 sheds light on a somewhat confusing statement in 5:14:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"

So was death the consequence of sin, or was sin imputed? Which came first? Again, read your newspaper or watch your favorite news source to see that all sin. So why do all sin? Why are none righteous? And why do infants inevitably sin? Is it because sin was merely imputed to them? Did they become culpable for sin without actually being sinners? Or does this death have a direct relationship to sin?

Death reigns in all of us already; it's not solely a physical death but a spiritual one. It's the reason why a living man must be born again. It's sometimes referred to as the "death of the soul", aka "original sin", a state of being in which man is separated from his Creator, a state which is an anomaly, a gross and destructive injustice, something that ought not to be: a sin; creation is not intended to be outside the control and will and providence of its Creator and, in the case of men and angels, God allows that to be our choice. So, "original sin" is both the original act of disobedience of man (Adam and Eve) and the state of disobedience/rebellion/alienation that all men are now born into as a result. Adam and Eve represented the rest of us, and we all fell with them.

The imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern for the imputation for Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

You haven’t demonstrated that at all. Rom 5:18-19 shows clearly that man became a sinner (unrighteous) due to Adam’s sin, and man may now become righteous due to Jesus’ righteousness. This is the reason why “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.” (Rom 8:1) As man becomes righteous by the merits of Christ, there’s nothing to condemn him for-so he may now live!

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Rom 5:17

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. Rom 8:12-14

 

[Clare73]

everyone has their own sin, Ezekiel cant testify what Adam has done, or what Romans 5 talks of relating to Adam.

We have no basis for Scriptural discussion.

 

[fhansen]

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate the error in my post #336, following:

"We don't 'become inherently guilty of possessing someone else's sin' (Eze 18:20),
nor are we acquitted of inheriting/possessing someone else's sin that we don't possess.
Guilt of someone else's sin must be imputed to us (Ro 5:17), charged to our account,
as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6), charged to his account, it was not inherited.

Humanity became guilty of Adam's sin by imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17,
the only sin that caused death between Adam and Moses, Ro 5:14, when there was no law to sin against to cause man's death, Ro 4:15), just as humanity becomes righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

Both guilt of Adam's sin and righteouness of Christ are imputed to mankind (Ro 5:18-19)."

First, address what is on the table. . .i.e., Biblically demonstrate the error of my post #336, then we will go from there.

First, how does Eze 18:20 resolve anything here to begin with? If man is guilty and therefore culpable/accountable for Adam’s sin, whether by “imputation” or because he shares personally in the rebellion, then he’s “bearing the guilt of the father”-and suffering the consequences. Man must be reborn, made a new creation, in order to be freed from the state of original sin, no longer an enemy of God, no longer a slave to the sin that earns him death, now grafted into the Vine, the source of true righteousess, that gives him life!

 

[Clare73]

No, you inserted "imputation" into the whole narrative. Rom 5:12 sheds light on a somewhat confusing statement in 5:14:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"

So was death the consequence of sin, or was sin imputed?

Both. . .

I.The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
Sin is transgression of the law (Ro 4:3).
Where there is no law, there is no transgression/sin (Ro 4:15).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died.
Of what sin/trangression did they die? (Ro 5:14).
They died of the imputed sin of Adam to all mankind (Ro 5:17, just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham, Ge 15:6, and is imputed to those in Christ Ro 5:18-19).

II. The rest of unbelieving mankind, in addition, dies for his own sin/transgression of the law.

 

[Clare73]

First, how does Eze 18:20 resolve anything here to begin with? If man is guilty and therefore culpable/accountable for Adam’s sin, whether by “imputation” or because he shares personally in the rebellion, then he’s “bearing the guilt of the father”-

The issue in Eze 18:20 is inheritance of sin.

Man is dying for guilt imputed to him by God, not guilt that he inherited (Ro 5:17, 18-19), contrary to Eze 18:20.
Just as, man is given eternal life for righteousness imputed to him by God (Ro 5:18-19), not righteousness that he inherited.

The imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19) corresponds to
the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19) through faith, it being the remedy thereof.

A first Adam, second Adam thing.

 

[fhansen]

There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died.

They all died because they entered a state of sin, of unrighteouness, along with Adam in his alienation from God.

 

[fhansen]

The issue in Eze 18:20 is inheritance of sin.

Man is dying for guilt imputed to him by God, not guilt that he inherited (Ro 5:17, 18-19), contrary to Eze 18:20.

No, the issue in Eze 18:20 is that man bears the guilt of the father's sin. Now, the reason he bears the guilt of Adam's sin is because he inherits the sin in some manner. And I really cannot fathom how a Christian could deny this, living in the world that we do. The doctrine of original sin is the explanation for why we have moral evil (sin) here, for why all fall short of the glory of God.

 

[Clare73]

They all died because they entered a state of sin, of unrighteouness, along with Adam in his alienation from God.

Addressed in post #366.

 

[Clare73]

No, the issue in Eze 18:20 is that man bears the guilt of the father's sin.

Read it again. . .

 

[fhansen]

Addressed in post #366.

Addressed in post #368.

 

[Clare73]

Addressed in post #368.

No Biblical demonstration of error in post #366, presenting the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19), was presented in post #368.

 

[fhansen]

No Biblical demonstration of error was presented in post #368.

Post #368 summarized what was already demonstrated.

 

[Clare73]

Post #368 summarized what was already demonstrated.

Which did not include a demonstration of error in post #366.
Post #366, following, has not been addressed.

I.The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
Sin is transgression of the law (Ro 4:3).
Where there is no law, there is no transgression/sin (Ro 4:15).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died.
Of what sin/trangression did they die? (Ro 5:14).
They died of the imputed sin of Adam to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19, 13-14, just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham, Ge 15:6, and is imputed to all those of Christ, Ro 5:18-19).

II. The rest of unbelieving mankind dies, in addition, for his own sin/transgression of the law.

 

[fhansen]

I.The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
Sin is transgression of the law (Ro 4:3).
Where there is no law, there is no transgression/sin (Ro 4:15).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, yet they all died.
Of what sin/trangression did they die? (Ro 5:14).
They died of the imputed sin of Adam to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19, 13-14, just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham, Ge 15:6, and is imputed to all those of Christ, Ro 5:18-19).

II. The rest of unbelieving mankind dies, in addition, for his own sin/transgression of the law.

Ok, so what Paul is meaning to say is that, when Cain slew Abel it was not sinful. In fact, since sin would've only been imputed to Cain to begin with, then he was still innocent, doing God's will as He intended for man; the Fall had no negative effect on Cain morally since it didn't make him unrighteous anyway-it just declared him to be unrighteous. And even tho you agree that Adam's offspring were held accountable/guilty for a sin they didn't commit, you somehow still maintain that they didn't bear the guilt of their faither's sin.

Is that what you're meaning to say here?

 

[Clare73]

Ok, so what Paul is meaning to say is that, when Cain slew Abel it was not sinful.

It's not about "sin," it's about the law, and transgression of the law (which is sin, Ro 4:3) and, therefore, subjection to the law's curse of death..
Where there is no law, there is no sin. (Ro 4:15) and, therefore, no curse of death.
And yet, they all died anyway between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress, to sin against.
Of what sin did they die?
They died of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19), which imputed sin of Adam was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteosness of Christ.

Paul is demonstrating the imputed sin of Adam to all mankind in Ro 5:12-19, where between Adam and Moses there was no sin because there was no law and no death for its violation, yet they all died anyway. . .because of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17).

In fact, since sin would've only been imputed to Cain to begin with, then he was still innocent,

God's imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:14) is imputation of guilt, as demonstrated in the deaths of those between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to transgress and to incur guilt to cause their deaths.
Cain was guilty of Adam's sin by imputation, as is all mankind (Ro 5:17), which is why all mankind died between Adam and Moses when there was no personal guilt of transgression/sin to condemn them to death (Ro 5:12-19).

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Man is dying for guilt imputed to him by God, not guilt that he inherited (Ro 5:17, 18-19), contrary to Eze 18:20.

Best summation I have heard in a long time.

Perhaps the reason for so much disagreement with the word "imputation" is that in the NT, imputation is an accounting term substituted as a juridical term (via Metonymy). This would explain difficulty in understanding the difference between the false concept of inherited guilt vs. the imputed guilt God charges to the account of the individual for Adam's sin. Completely different concepts.

 

[fhansen]

It's not about "sin," it's about the law, and transgression of the law (which is sin, Ro 4:3) and, therefore, subjection to the law's curse of death..
Where there is no law, there is no sin. (Ro 4:15) and, therefore, no curse of death.
And yet, they all died anyway between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress, to sin against.
Of what sin did they die?
They died of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19), which imputed sin of Adam was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteosness of Christ.

Paul is demonstrating the imputed sin of Adam to all mankind in Ro 5:12-19, where between Adam and Moses there was no sin because there was no law and no death for its violation, yet they all died anyway. . .because of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17).

God's imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:14) is imputation of guilt, as demonstrated in the deaths of those between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to transgress and to incur guilt to cause their deaths.
Cain was guilty of Adam's sin by imputation, as is all mankind (Ro 5:17), which is why all mankind died between Adam and Moses when there was no personal guilt of transgression/sin to condemn them to death (Ro 5:12-19).

So are you saying that there was no personal unrighteousness in Cain that caused him to slay Abel? That was only part of the goodness that God created him in? The Fall had no negative effect on man vis a vis righteousness? He did not become a sinner due to Adam's sin? I mean, how does that work?
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

 

[fhansen]

It's not about "sin," it's about the law, and transgression of the law (which is sin, Ro 4:3) and, therefore, subjection to the law's curse of death..
Where there is no law, there is no sin. (Ro 4:15) and, therefore, no curse of death.
And yet, they all died anyway between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress, to sin against.
Of what sin did they die?
They died of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19), which imputed sin of Adam was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteosness of Christ.

Paul is demonstrating the imputed sin of Adam to all mankind in Ro 5:12-19, where between Adam and Moses there was no sin because there was no law and no death for its violation, yet they all died anyway. . .because of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17).

God's imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:14) is imputation of guilt, as demonstrated in the deaths of those between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to transgress and to incur guilt to cause their deaths.
Cain was guilty of Adam's sin by imputation, as is all mankind (Ro 5:17), which is why all mankind died between Adam and Moses when there was no personal guilt of transgression/sin to condemn them to death (Ro 5:12-19).

And you're still not answering the question about Eze 18:20. You apparently agree that Adam's offspring were held accountable/guilty for a sin they didn't commit:

Man is dying for guilt imputed to him by God

God's imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:14) is imputation of guilt,

And that would be in direct confrlict with Eze 18:20:
"The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son."