Herd Immunity?

[Loudmouth]

The point is IT IS an emotional discussion. People are confused. You are talking about their children. And no, adults who are responsible are not ALWAYS getting their children vaccinated. That is actually a very judgemental statement. Many MANY responsible parents are not vaccinating their children.

It is most certainly irresponsible to increase the risk that your child will contract a very serious infection.

Spend some time reading what people are thinking and feeling on the topic and you will see that it is NOT a cut and dried topic.

Learn the science and what the evidence is, and you will see that it is a cut and dried topic. The risk posed by the vaccine is 100 to 1,000 fold less than the risk posed by the disease it protects against. For example, these stats are from the CDC:

•As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
•About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or mentally [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].
•For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.
Measles | Complications | CDC
​

Do you really think that 1 or 2 out of every 1,000 children are dying from the measles vaccine? Does the vaccine cause encephalitis 1 in every 1,000 kids?

The measles vaccine causes encephalitis in about 1 in ever 1 million kids which is 1,000 times less than the risk from the vaccine. Of course, this relies on all parents getting their kids vaccinated because then you reduce the risk of kids getting infected due to a poor immune response to the vaccine.

The anti-vacc movement is extremely irrepsonsible. It is putting kids' lives at risk every day, and needlessly so. These nutters should not be coddled or treated nicely. They should be confronted with the danger they are putting their children in. They have no excuse.

 

[hankroberts]

"As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
•About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or mentally [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].
•For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.
Measles | Complications | CDC"

I presume you know that's worldwide data, not US data?

 

[Loudmouth]

I presume you know that's worldwide data, not US data?

That's human data. It shows the risks that measles poses to children who contract the disease.

 

[hankroberts]

That's human data. It shows the risks that measles poses to children who contract the disease.

Heh. I'll take that as a "yes".

 

[Loudmouth]

Heh. I'll take that as a "yes".

Are you denying that the vaccine is at least 1,000 times safer than the actual infection?

 

[keith99]

The point is IT IS an emotional discussion. People are confused. You are talking about their children. And no, adults who are responsible are not ALWAYS getting their children vaccinated. That is actually a very judgemental statement. Many MANY responsible parents are not vaccinating their children. My question is WHY? There is no way I am going to judge them for that because I haven't had to make that decision yet.
Spend some time reading what people are thinking and feeling on the topic and you will see that it is NOT a cut and dried topic. It is not right to call them foolish and irresponsible when you don't really understand their motives. When you talking about people and their precious children, it is not fair to judge them.
Read about the people whose children are injured from vaccines. Feel their pain.
The average parent doesn't give a rats Pajamas what science says. They trusted doctors and had their child vaccinated and their child was injured. Other parents read that and say NO...I don't blame them for a minute.
Yes, this is definitely an emotional topic.

One huge problem is that most of the anti vaccine bloggers never bother to do any real checking.

For them Post Hoc Ergo Procter Hoc is enough.

That is just fancy Greek (I hope I always mix up Greek and Latin!) for happened after must have happened because of.

With that in mind it is little surprise that the leading concern of anti-vaxers is autism.

Autism is not discriminating. It affects children of both sexes, and strikes all races and ethnic groups. Virtually all children with autism have the diagnostic signs and symptoms between the ages of two and four. According to the Academy of Pediatrics, children may begin to display the signs of autism between 18 and 24 months.

Age of Onset - Parenting Children with Autism

It is thus little surprise that autism often is first noticed soon after a vaccination. What would be telling is a study of vaccinated vrs unvaccinated kids.

Also telling is that the anti-vaxers who claim personal experience almost always claim that the autism occurred immediately after getting vaccinated, however in searching to get an average onset age I read a little further.

The problem is often the failure of parents to realize there is a problem. Parents see their children day after day and may not recognize that their son or daughter is not reaching developmental milestones. This is where the extended family can help by raising the alarm about any issues they perceive with the child.

Simply put autism is not a rash and easily identifiable upon onset.

 

[hankroberts]

Are you denying that the vaccine is at least 1,000 times safer than the actual infection?

Well, first, I've already stated my full support of the use of vaccines and most immunization programs, even where they're widely implemented and the risks are considerably different.

Having said that, the fact is that when you take world wide data and attempt to apply it to any particular region or nation, the numbers fail to reflect the truth in that area. For example, while the risks of harm from immunization are usually lower in developed countries (as they are here) the risk of exposure is also lower, and the risk of serious complications is also lower, and often significantly lower. The data then changes the risk ratio when applied correctly. That is why the NIH and the CDC also publish data by nation/region; so an accurate understanding can be drawn.

I think it was Mark Twain who said that there are three degrees of lies: lies, 'dam lies', and statistics.

 

[bhsmte]

Well, first, I've already stated my full support of the use of vaccines and most immunization programs, even where they're widely implemented and the risks are considerably different.

Having said that, the fact is that when you take world wide data and attempt to apply it to any particular region or nation, the numbers fail to reflect the truth in that area. For example, while the risks of harm from immunization are usually lower in developed countries (as they are here) the risk of exposure is also lower, and the risk of serious complications is also lower, and often significantly lower. The data then changes the risk ratio when applied correctly. That is why the NIH and the CDC also publish data by nation/region; so an accurate understanding can be drawn.

I think it was Mark Twain who said that there are three degrees of lies: lies, 'dam lies', and statistics.

Did Mark Twain have an opinion on the importance of vaccinations?

 

[Loudmouth]

Having said that, the fact is that when you take world wide data and attempt to apply it to any particular region or nation, the numbers fail to reflect the truth in that area. For example, while the risks of harm from immunization are usually lower in developed countries (as they are here) the risk of exposure is also lower, and the risk of serious complications is also lower, and often significantly lower.

The risk of the vaccine is still much less than the disease, even in the US. If the risk of the vaccine were anything close to the actual disease, it would be obvious. As it is, parents have been scared into believing that vaccines cause autism, and they just won't budge from that myth.

 

[Blue Wren]

Do most paediatricians in the US, encourage parents to immunise their children? It seems, that most physicians would know the importance, of vaccinations. Why do parents turn to imbecilic blogs, for information? Are the ones, who do not immunise, more likely to not see proper physicians?

 

[Loudmouth]

Do most paediatricians in the US, encourage parents to immunise their children? It seems, that most physicians would know the importance, of vaccinations. Why do parents turn to imbecilic blogs, for information? Are the ones, who do not immunise, more likely to not see proper physicians?

I would think that nearly 99% of pediatricians suggest vaccination for healthy children.

 

[Blue Wren]

I would think that nearly 99% of pediatricians suggest vaccination for healthy children.

That's what I would think, also. I have no idea, at all, what the requirements are, for parents getting their children medical care. Are there any requirements for parents to bring their children to paediatricians? I do not understand, turning to a BLOG, for information. In Sweden, I think immunisation is compulsory for school. Homeschooling, it is illegal. It resolves the problem, of teaching creationism, and of immunisations, by requiring them for mandatory schooling.

 

[hankroberts]

Did Mark Twain have an opinion on the importance of vaccinations?

Heh. Probably not, given the time frame. But knowing something of his life and thoughts, I would venture he would be unquestioningly for them. As I am.

 

[hankroberts]

The risk of the vaccine is still much less than the disease, even in the US. If the risk of the vaccine were anything close to the actual disease, it would be obvious. As it is, parents have been scared into believing that vaccines cause autism, and they just won't budge from that myth.

Completely agree, on every point.

 

[Loudmouth]

That's what I would think, also. I have no idea, at all, what the requirements are, for parents getting their children medical care. Are there any requirements for parents to bring their children to paediatricians? I do not understand, turning to a BLOG, for information. In Sweden, I think immunisation is compulsory for school. Homeschooling, it is illegal. It resolves the problem, of teaching creationism, and of immunisations, by requiring them for mandatory schooling.

The US is not as demanding on parents. In fact, parents can deny their children life saving medicine or surgery if their religious beliefs call for it.

 

[hankroberts]

I would think that nearly 99% of pediatricians suggest vaccination for healthy children.

And at least here in the US you would be correct.

 

[bhsmte]

Do most paediatricians in the US, encourage parents to immunise their children? It seems, that most physicians would know the importance, of vaccinations. Why do parents turn to imbecilic blogs, for information? Are the ones, who do not immunise, more likely to not see proper physicians?

The scary thing is; those who do not vaccinate, think they know more than the medical professionals.

 

[Blue Wren]

The scary thing is; those who do not vaccinate, think they know more than the medical professionals.

Arrogant ignorance, it is the worst kind of ignorance.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The US is not as demanding on parents. In fact, parents can deny their children life saving medicine or surgery if their religious beliefs call for it.

On that note, that shouldn't be allowed either.

 

[durangodawood]

In this country, the right of the individual to his own person is considered an inherent right. I have exactly no right to force medical treatment on you. And I don't want any such right.

That may hold for treatment of personal conditions.

BUT.

If you have certain communicable diseases you can be quarantined, legally, and against your will if necessary.

SO,

Clearly there a different standard for public health concerns.