Her Body, Her Choice: Woman on Trial for Terminating 6 Pregnancies

[SuperPhil]

You seem to have mistaken the situation I was referencing. I'm referring to any woman who, facing an ectopic pregnancy, would trust in god to save her baby and herself. Ectopic fetuses are not viable, and left to grow, can easily kill the mother.

If a woman doesn't get an ectopic fetus aborted because of her religious beliefs, and has other children that depend on her, she ranks among the most irresponsible persons I can imagine.

I figured there was some miscommunication.

Pardon my ignorance, but is there no way for the baby to survive out of the womb? Is an ectopic pregnancy always 100% fatal for the baby?

 

[laconicstudent]

Sorry.

Will you forgive me?

Of course

 

[lux et lex]

The word miscarriage was developed so people did not have to announce,

"My wife's baby died inside of her, before birth."

Miscarriaging is still a tragic situation and I assure you no one is happy with that.

When my friend had a miscarriage (as the father) he was quite depressed for a long time.

The only thing that lessens the pain is knowing that there was essentially little to nothing that could be done to prevent it.

You just said a bunch of things without answering my question. Is a baby that is born and dies an hour later a miscarriage or an infant death?

 

[MoonLancer]

Okay, so I'll reiterate my questions, since this has turned into a discussion about not going to the doctor which has nothing to do with the OP, but I digress.

1. How is a fetus not a human? And I don't mean what a person's interpretation of what being a human entails, if it has a soul, if it has personhood. I mean what makes a fetus lacking in DNA to where it cannot be considered a human?

If something is unfinished, can it be consideded to be what its intended to be? I can remove a single skin cell from my body and its human DNA, But its still not a Human.

2. What is magically bestowed upon the fetus at the moment it passes from the vaginal opening that makes it a person/human/baby?

The ability to be biologically self sustaining. In other words it becomes an individual rather then something that is apart of the mother. And its not magic. I could as the same thing about conception. Conception is a very poor time to pick the cut off, seeing as how only 1 in 7or8 conceptions actually starts growing into a baby. The rest die and fail right after conception.

3. Is the unborn at twelve weeks into gestation technically a baby if the mother wants the unborn and considers it such? If so, what makes her fetus different from any other in terms of how we would classify it?

I don't understand this question

 

[MoonLancer]

Pregnancy: a medical emergency that requires termination?

in some cases

The word miscarriage was developed so people did not have to announce,

"My wife's baby died inside of her, before birth."

i would like some etymological proof on that

Miscarriaging is still a tragic situation and I assure you no one is happy with that.

there are many miscarriages right after conception. Most women don't even know it happens.

The only thing that lessens the pain is knowing that there was essentially little to nothing that could be done to prevent it.

that's true. Theologically speaking that does not mean there is no one to blame.

 

[brightmorningstar]

If something is unfinished, can it be consideded to be what its intended to be? I can remove a single skin cell from my body and its human DNA, But its still not a Human.

Well thats true but the foetus will naturally continue its development into the human it is, the skin cell wont.

 

[LyraJean]

Because we live on the planet Earth where everything is imperfect. The people we vote into public office have to create laws for us to follow.

A baby living on this side of a birth canal is considered a human being and given all the rights of a human being. It is chosen because it receives all the rights that older human beings get.

If you ascribe a fetus the same rights as a born person you would have to investigate every single miscarriage as a possible murder. Would you really want to do that? If a fetus is considered a human being with full rights then abortion under the law would be murder.

And yeah no one answered the question the last time I asked which I find interesting. So if a fetus is a human being by law with the full rights of a human being would you be willing to have every single miscarriage investigated as a murder. Because that is kinda what you are saying.

 

[StTherese]

Because we live on the planet Earth where everything is imperfect. The people we vote into public office have to create laws for us to follow.

A baby living on this side of a birth canal is considered a human being and given all the rights of a human being. It is chosen because it receives all the rights that older human beings get.

If you ascribe a fetus the same rights as a born person you would have to investigate every single miscarriage as a possible murder. Would you really want to do that? If a fetus is considered a human being with full rights then abortion under the law would be murder.

And yeah no one answered the question the last time I asked which I find interesting. So if a fetus is a human being by law with the full rights of a human being would you be willing to have every single miscarriage investigated as a murder. Because that is kinda what you are saying.

Abortions should be considered murder under the law, because it is a human being and should have rights. Yet a miscarriage can not be considered murder any more than someone dying of old age. It is a result of a natural consequence. People die at all stages of life as a result of a natural consequence...when one decides to take that life before its natural end is when it is murder.

 

[LyraJean]

Abortions should be considered murder under the law, because it is a human being and should have rights. Yet a miscarriage can not be considered murder any more than someone dying of old age. It is a result of a natural consequence. People die at all stages of life as a result of a natural consequence...when one decides to take that life before its natural end is when it is murder.

So a woman can self-induce an abortion and you won't persecute it because it will be considered a miscarriage. So if a woman loses a baby without seeing an abortion doctor then it's not murder. Wow! what a loophole. You would have to investigate every single miscarriage in order to prove that it is not a self-induced abortion.

 

[StTherese]

So a woman can self-induce an abortion and you won't persecute it because it will be considered a miscarriage. So if a woman loses a baby without seeing an abortion doctor then it's not murder. Wow! what a loophole. You would have to investigate every single miscarriage in order to prove that it is not a self-induced abortion.

No a woman should not be able to self induce an abortion and it should be illegal and we should be able to attempt to persecute those who do.

 

[LyraJean]

No a woman should not be able to self induce an abortion and it should be illegal and we should be able to attempt to persecute those who do.

Which means you would have to investigate every single miscarriage as a possible murder.

 

[StTherese]

Which means you would have to investigate every single miscarriage as a possible murder.

Well, if there was reason to believe that a woman self-inflicted her abortion then so be it. Just as if there was suspicion when anyone dies that they had been murdered.

If abortion was illegal and punishable by law then you have to admit there would not be as many taking place.

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

Well, if there was reason to believe that a woman self-inflicted her abortion then so be it. Just as if there was suspicion when anyone dies that they had been murdered.

So, again, that's millions of investigations to be launched, costing billions of dollars, and, if found guilty, it would overload our prison system.

If abortion was illegal and punishable by law then you have to admit there would not be as many taking place.

Nope. Abortions would still occur, just they'd be driven back into the alleys. More women would die, more children would die, and more backroom doctors would make it rich.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Well, if there was reason to believe that a woman self-inflicted her abortion then so be it. Just as if there was suspicion when anyone dies that they had been murdered.

If abortion was illegal and punishable by law then you have to admit there would not be as many taking place.

When abortion was illegal it was generally relegated to back alleys with coathangers, or throwing oneself down stairs.

However, abortions of convenience are morally dubious at best. Abortions of medical necessity that are not a means to an end (ectopic pregnancy) are allowed, even by the Catholic Church. In all cases, as much effort as possible should be made to save the life of the mother and the developing child.

 

[Dark_Lite]

I would consider it technically an abortion, yes, but the sort of abortion that I find dispicable.

At some point in almost everyone's mind, there comes a point where abortion is just disgusting/sickening/wrong. The question is: where is that line for an individual, and why is it there? Why is it so arbitrary amongst different people?

I posit we all have different maximum levels of disgust that we can take.

 

[StTherese]

So, again, that's millions of investigations to be launched, costing billions of dollars, and, if found guilty, it would overload our prison system.

Oh well...murder is murder. If it was illegal and people were put in prison, many women would think twice about doing it and would probably think twice about having sex outside of marriage for that matter.

Nope. Abortions would still occur, just they'd be driven back into the alleys. More women would die, more children would die, and more backroom doctors would make it rich.

It only makes sense that a lot less would occur. Yes there are probably some that would still do it illegally, just as there are those who choose to murder others illegally. It would definitely give them something to ponder if they thought they themselves may die as a result or be put in prison, maybe even enough to reconsider!

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

Oh well...murder is murder. If it was illegal and people were put in prison, many women would think twice about doing it and would probably think twice about having sex outside of marriage for that matter.

Again, think. How would you investtegate and house all these women?

It only makes sense that a lot less would occur. Yes there are probably some that would still do it illegally, just as there are those who choose to murder others illegally. It would definitely give them something to ponder if they thought they themselves may die as a result or be put in prison, maybe even enough to reconsider!

Again, no it wouldn't.

 

[StTherese]

When abortion was illegal it was generally relegated to back alleys with coathangers, or throwing oneself down stairs.

However, abortions of convenience are morally dubious at best. Abortions of medical necessity that are not a means to an end (ectopic pregnancy) are allowed, even by the Catholic Church. In all cases, as much effort as possible should be made to save the life of the mother and the developing child.

Abortion is not allowed by the Catholic Church. If a woman's life is in immediate danger and a fetus/embryo has to be removed to save her life. The intention is not to kill the child but to save the life of the mother.

 

[IzzyPop]

Oh well...murder is murder. If it was illegal and people were put in prison, many women would think twice about doing it and would probably think twice about having sex outside of marriage for that matter.

Or inside of marriage, for that matter. Back when I was married and didn't want more children, we used birth control and (gasp!) actually decided that if it failed we would abort the child. Had it been illegal, we would not have had sex. I like it when people I don't know try and stick their noses into my sex life. Makes me feel like they really care about me. Thank you.

It only makes sense that a lot less would occur. Yes there are probably some that would still do it illegally, just as there are those who choose to murder others illegally. It would definitely give them something to ponder if they thought they themselves may die as a result or be put in prison, maybe even enough to reconsider!

Not at all. Making something illegal does nothing to the demand. It only increases prices and risks. So by making it illegal all that you are doing is ensuring that only the rich can afford it with ease and the poor will do some pretty desperate things to come up with the money.

I love how all the compassion is spent on a tiny blob of cells and none for the people that it could actually do some good.

 

[LyraJean]

Well, if there was reason to believe that a woman self-inflicted her abortion then so be it. Just as if there was suspicion when anyone dies that they had been murdered.

If abortion was illegal and punishable by law then you have to admit there would not be as many taking place.

Well I hope your laws do not go into effect and then you have a miscarriage. Then you would have to prove that you had a natural miscarriage and did not receive or induce an abortion. If you drink tea better read the label. Some herbal teas cause miscarriage under your law that could be inducing an abortion.