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Help with Revelation 12

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Carl Emerson, May 12, 2020.

  1. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    New Zealand
    I am not gifted to teach end times.

    Can folks identify the Woman in this Chapter.

    She is obviously a supreme figure of great prominence.

    Is it Israel, the Church or Mary.

    Can you give reasons for your conclusion please.
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    I'm new to studying Revelation, but this article has been helpful to me. Here's just an excerpt:

    Quoting linked article:
    Much of the following material is taken from Steve Gregg’s book, Revelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary). Thomas Nelson Publishers: Nashville, 1997. Pp. 252-276]

    Glossary of Terms:

    Woman = [1] Old Testament Israel (i.e. the faithful remnant among the Israelites); and [2] later God’s people, the remnant among the nations, after Christ’s death and resurrection
    = Rome, under the influence of Satan
    Male Child = Jesus Christ

    Verse 1: Preterists agree with Futurists that the woman here refers to the nation of Israel, with the imagery being reminiscent of Joseph’s dream as recorded in Genesis 37:9.

    Verse 2: The birth pangs and agony of giving birth symbolize the suffering of the Jewish people during the time of Roman rule before the birth of Christ. Steve Gregg (p. 256) writes that the “travailing of the woman is understood to refer to the centuries of affliction suffered by the faithful Jews as they awaited the coming of their Messiah.” - Revelation Chapter 12
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Age isn't a number. It's a three lettered word. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

    United States
    And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

    And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

    And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

    And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    Whoever the woman is, she is alive and on the Earth at the time Satan starts the great tribulation and the GT ends when Christ returns so that means it cannot be the historical Mary. It must be a symbolic woman, most likely some form of Israel...I think "true Israel" or "NT (new covenant) Israel" makes the most sense.
  4. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

    For me, it was really difficult to grasp eschatology until I was able to first settle on the big picture of the entire Bible, especially the Messianic years and how Jesus' life fulfilled prophecy.
  5. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

    The 'woman' is by turns:

    'the city': Lamentations 1:1
    1How she sits alone,
    the city once crowded with people!
    She who was great among the nations
    has become like a widow.
    The princess among the provinces
    has been put to forced labor.

    same 'city' in Daniel 9:26 whose 'end comes with a flood' = 'flood' of Revelation 12:15 (more on this later)
    'Jerusalem': Lamentations 1:7
    7 During the days of her affliction and homelessness
    Jerusalem remembers all her precious belongings
    that were hers in days of old.
    When her people fell into the adversary’s hand,
    she had no one to help.
    The adversaries looked at her,
    laughing over her downfall.

    'Judah' (aka 'Judea'): Lamentations 1:3
    3 Judah has gone into exile
    following affliction and harsh slavery;
    she lives among the nations

    but finds no place to rest.
    All her pursuers have overtaken her
    in narrow places.

    'going into exile' = woman going into the 'wilderness' in Rev 12
    The land of Judah is also called 'Judea'. This is the same 'Judea' as in Matthew 24:15-16.​

    'Mystery Babylon': is the 'city that rules the world' in Revelation 17:18. Mystery Babylon has the same descriptors as the woman in Lamentations.

    Because the 'woman' has the connotation of the 'bride'/ church of Jesus, and because there is parallelism between 'Judah' (in modern terms, 'Jews' who comprise the nation state of Israel) and 'Israel' (modern day 10 tribe Israel = modern day Christians with the US as the modern day Mystery Babylon or the equivalent of 'Ephraim' (whose name means 'great multitude' which is referenced in Revelation 7), it is a bit hard to parse out which exact thing is being referenced at any given time. But, given a context, it is a bit easier to see.

    For example, Trump's Peace Plan that is being unveiled is called Peace to Prosperity Peace to Prosperity | The White House Of course, this ought to call to mind 1 Thessalonians 5:3 'when they say, 'peace and safety', which is Paul's reference to Deuteronomy 29:18-20
    18Beware lest there be among you a man or woman or clan or tribe whose heart is turning away today from the Lord our God to go and serve the gods of those nations. Beware lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit, 19 one who, when he hears the words of this sworn covenant, blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall be safe, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart.’ This will lead to the sweeping away of moist and dry alike. 20The Lord will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the Lord and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven.​

    'safe' which is the Hebrew for 'shalom' which means 'peace & a feeling of security (materially or financially)'. Or in other words, peace and prosperity.

    This leads to 'sudden destruction'. That is the 'flood', the people of the prince to come coming to corrupt/ destroy the 'city' which means spiritual Jerusalem & literal Jerusalem & literal Judea - which is why you see Judea being annexed (again, the 'Judea' of Matthew 24:15-16). This is being voted on in Israel in July. Watch for what happens around July 20-25 which is a 'flood' (= 150 days reference to Genesis 7:24) before the 'city' is 'destroyed' (Daniel 9:26) (read Daniel 9 literally, using all timeframes literally, including Daniel 9:2, to get to either December 18 or Dec 21, 2020, depending on how it unfolds. (subtract the 'flood' to get to the July timeframe). More info in the link in the signature.
  6. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    This is a "big picture" chapter, covering past, present, and future. The most obvious reference is to Genesis 3:15: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." So the woman is Eve and her faithful descendants, including Israel and the Church.

    Part of Revelation 12 is in the past, like the fall of Satan (verses 3-4: "Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth").

    The last part of verse 4 refers to all the times that Satan tried to prevent Jesus being born, or to kill off Jesus (including when Herod killed the children in Bethlehem): "The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born."

    Verse 5 is key, and is about Jesus: She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. (the messianic prophecy in Genesis 49:10 is being referenced here).

    In verse 13, the woman is either the Church or Israel (being persecuted by the Romans either way): When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

    In verse 17, later persecution of Christians is clearly in view (this is going on right now, and is continuing): Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    United States
    "Salvation is of the Jews" John 4 -- according to Christ .. and John is writing Rev 12.

    The woman is the church of God in every age - just as we see in Romans 11 both OT and NT church as one ..

    It is the Jewish Church that gives birth to the Messiah.. then it is the persecuted christian church that flees into the wilderness in Rev 12 for 1260 years -- the dark ages.

    Rev 12 describes the pure church in all ages under persecution
    Rev 17 and 18 describe an apostate church - a persecuting power
  8. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

    United States
    The woman is Israel (specifically the remnant) The Child is The Messiah who will rule (in the millennium) with a rod of iron.
    She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

    The ruling of the earth during the millennium with the Law (613 commandants) perfect law and perfect justice.

    No wonder after being ruled for a 1000 years by the iron of The Messiah, will the earth inspired and lead by satan try to war against The Messiah.
  9. Bob Crowley

    Bob Crowley Well-Known Member Supporter

    I think it's beyond doubt that the woman is Mary, the Mother of Christ, and therefore the Mother of God.

    She's been turning up on regular occasions. This is a list of approved apparitions, with notes about some non-approved apparitions. Just because someone states they saw Mary in their corn flakes this morning doesn't mean the Church is going to fall over itself to approve it. The Church goes to a lot of trouble before approving an apparition.

    List of Marian apparitions - Wikipedia

    If you look at the dates, they seem to be getting more and more frequent.

    At Fatima in 1917 in Portugal for example, when World War I was at its height, there were reports of mocking atheists terrified out of their wits.

    Bearing in mind the recent resurgence of Islam, there may have also been another reason why she chose a town called Fatima, as in this article by Bishop Fulton Sheen -

    Mary and the Moslems | Bishop Fulton J. Sheen | From "The World's First Love" | Ignatius Insight

    That apparition featured the sun, in no uncertain terms viz. "...a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars...". To me the "twelve stars" was a reference to the the 12 disciples, one of whom wrote Revelation.

    There were 3 miracles, with 70,000 witnesses.

    1. The "dancing sun" although to those who were there it was more like a "terrifying sun" seeming to be going to crash onto the earth and destroy it, again and again.

    2. 70.000 people stared at the sun for a good 10 minutes, with no reports of eye damage. Normally 10 seconds is about the "safe" limit, and I wouldn't even like to try that. They were miraculously protected.

    3. It had been raining for hours, and the ground and people were wet through and through. Suddenly both the ground and their clothes were dry and clean. I read somewhere that scientists calculated that the it would have taken the same energy, liberated instantly, as that released by a 10 megaton hydrogen bomb to vaporise all the water. The people should have been vaporised with it but they weren't even harmed. They were just dry and clean, instantaneously.

    My old Protestant pastor commented to me "There's been a lot of them (Marian Apparitions).... I think they're a judgment on a divided church."

    Akita in Japan in 1973 gives a very savage warning. In that apparition Mary stated that there would be a judgement which spared "neither priest nor faithful" if we didn't change. There's not much evidence we have.

    As I said before, the apparitions have been getting more frequent.

    When Christ told His "disciple, whom He loved", "Behold, your mother", the disciple was standing in proxy for all disciples, whom Christ 'loves'. The record is there for more than just an account of how she lived the rest of her earthly life. Ditto His statement to His mother, "Behold, your son."

    Again He was handing over all His disciples to her spiritual, maternal care.

    There's no doubt in my mind the woman in Revelation, chapter 12, is Mary, the Mother of Christ, calling us to repent and turn back to her divine Son. She doesn't call us to herself - she calls us to Him.
  10. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    No, I'm pretty sure I can doubt that.
  11. Noxot

    Noxot Supporter

    United States
    She is a spiritual expression for many different things such as the non-fleshly church, mary and the individual soul. The whole chapter deals with the war of Heavenly versus hellish realities which is something happening in us and happening all around us. her feet on the moon and clothed with the Sun means her spirit is united with God and rules over her soul. Because she is united with God she gives birth to Christ. The child is caught up to heaven because our conversation is in heaven and that is where real Authority and Power comes from. The Eagle wings are symbolic of heavenly spirits.

    even Christ is incorporated into evil spirits plots, he is the one with the wounded head that was healed. it is symbolic about his death and Resurrection but also since it said he had a wounded head it speaks of his authority being slain, that's also why in some part of Revelation it speaks of people being beheaded if they don't go along with the Antichrist plans. They, because of their nature, reject christ in people that he dwells in. Those that behead Christ in themselves have itching ears and instead listen to the doctrines of devils. They render Christ into a corpse. The letter kills, the spirit gives life.

    the various animal body parts of that Beast are descriptions of various kinds of evils that are working together against God's virgins. instead of being a mixed beastly thing virgins are called virgins because their eyes are single towards God.

    The red dragon of course is partially symbolic of the old Adam, Adam's name is related to the color red. The flood of lies it spews are swallowed by the Earth because those who dwell in the world are deceived because our conversation is supposed to be in heaven. Nevertheless those of the Earth who are deceived bless us in that we can see the Folly of their ways.
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Because the time of the judgment of the dead is in Revelation 11:18, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

    That makes the woman in chapter 12 the ancestors, which produced Christ.

  13. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    That's right. It's important to remember that only some of Revelation is in the future (see Revelation 1:19: "Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this").

    It's also important to remember the purpose of Revelation: encouragement of the churches. The "history lesson" in Revelation 12 gives the "big picture view." And the key thing in it is: Satan has already lost. He was kicked out of Heaven. He couldn't stop Jesus from being born. Just a few more years (some of them tough ones) and believers will be happy in the New Jerusalem.
  14. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    New Zealand
    OK - I appreciate the contributions.

    I think we got about 6 different offerings.

    That means if only one is right then over 80% are wrong...

    That raises the issue of God "Hates the prophets who steal one another's words".

    If one is right by revelation from His Spirit or from a true teacher, then the other 80% are borrowed from someone else who was not correct, or they themselves presumed and were wrong.

    For me, I think the end times arena is in serious disarray, and the fundamental requirement for each to weigh truth both in the light of scripture and His inner witness is being ignored.

    It may be time to pray that He will bring conviction to the vast majority who have not done this and must be in error.
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
  15. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    Can't argue with you there.

    PROPHECYKID Veteran Supporter

    Well I dont want to further any disarray but I just wanted to put my 2 cents.

    In answering your question, the woman in Revelation 12 represents God's people or God's church. The bible has used the symbol of a woman to refer to God's people numerous times, both to represent Israel in old Testament times and to represent the church in new testament times (both the church). So throughout the ages, everybody who represents God's people are the woman and those who represent God's people today are the offspring of woman. The bride of Christ is the church, its the same symbolism of the woman.