"Help! We're being persecuted!"

[FaithLikeARock]

an 18 year old American teenage girl proceeding to tell others what true persecution is and that considering oneself persecuted is vanity.. Then proceeds to tell others she's persecuted because some christians don't agree on her interperatation of parts of the bible..

lol


ANd yes there is persecution. Mostly in places of Asia and communist/atheist countrys like China. Christians are being slaughetered in those areas and in parts of the middle east they are nearly extinct. Bishops being abducted and murdered. School girls being killed by Godless muslims in their own countrys.

While its not on the same scale in America there is a different form of it. The ACLU is probably the biggest "bully pulpit" of the anti-christians today in America. Hopefully that monster will be taken down just like it needs to be.

And here comes the age argument...

If we follow their definition then yes I am persecuted by fellow Christians. Except I'm actually warned not to walk back the Christians tables at my college campus since they have such a high rate of harassment and my non-Christian friends are afraid for me. And I believe "made fun of" is the term I meant to use which I definitely am. Makes me sad when Christians have to do that.

I never said there wasn't. In fact I made a point that Western America's form of persecution wasn't nearly as great as that in the Middle East. Funny how you read that entire post, picked out two sentences, but you didn't even understand the main point. And the ACLU has protected Christian cases. The idea that the ACLU is somehow anti-Christians is a way in which Christians try to oppress others by saying that anytime the ACLU doesn't agree with them, they're obviously oppressing them,

Forgetting that Jesus was sinless and the Son of God with divine supernatural power no human being could ever live up the exact same way Christ did. Also Paul spoke from the Holy Spirit, his words were inspired by God, thus his words have just as much authority. The bible needs to be taken in as a whole, the Gospels don't overlap the epistles or visa versa.

And why would Jeuss run? THats was what he set out to do. And he knew. To sacrifice himself on the cross to give humans full atonement for our sins. No human can be compared to that. There are ways we can emulate the way Christ lived, but in no way can we do it the way Christ did. We are too broken and sinful to live such a righteous life and can only hope for mercy. Even the most pious of the saints knew how far away they were no matter how much self sacrifice they did.

And St Paul a low standard? what gives you the authority to know what is a low standard and what is not? Your calling a man, that Christ chose to be an apostle during his ressurection, who worked miracles, a low standard? Please get off your pedestal

Any Christian speaks from the Holy Spirit. It doesn't matter. Our goal in life is to be like Christ, NOT like Paul. And in comparison St. Paul IS a low standard. I'm very sad if your faith in God's power in your life isn't strong enough so you can say "I want to be like Christ" and instead you have to shorten it to "Well Christ was perfect so I can't do that. I want to be like Paul instead."

 

[FaithLikeARock]

I don't do that. I would consider receiving envelopes with white powder in them persecution. Now, technically, it wasn't Christians who got this treatment lately, it was the Mormons, but the gay activists who did this don't draw the same theological lines that most Christians do. They're going after Mormons, Catholic Christians, and Protestant Christians alike.

Gay activists, Muslims, Hindus, Pro-choicers, all get a lot more grief than Christians in this country. And they get it FROM Christians. And don't tell me they don't. It's time that we as followers, all of us, just admit it, instead of coming up with excuses all the time and claiming that our oppression of others is justified. We are supposed to love others for Jesus. Yet we see Christians kill in the name of God, we see Christians tease and harass in the name of God, and not only do we sometimes not stop it but we support it. All because they're doing it to people who don't believe the same as us?

 

[Braunwyn]

Great thread, FaithLikeARock. Yes, it would be silly for Christian Americans to feel persecuted by a minority in this country. I imagine that it's only a select few that are confused and probably have a bit too much time on their hands if they need to amuse themselves with a persecution complex. Regarding some mentioning your age, pay no mind. That's just a matter of grasping at straws.

 

[Andreusz]

^ ANd citing someone's age as a reason for disregarding their arguments is a true example of an ad hominem. Some people think that pointing out that they're liars is ad hominem, but this is not so.

 

[Cabal]

^ ANd citing someone's age as a reason for disregarding their arguments is a true example of an ad hominem.

The Bible says that too

 

[tanzanos]

The problem with Christianity is that it encompasses two opposing and mutually exclusive doctrines; that of the OT and NT. Americans tend to adhere more to the OT because it justifies the use of force as a means to an end. It advocates fear of the wrath of God. The NT on the other hand teaches the opposite. Were Christianity based solely on the NT; then it would have been a kinder gentler religion; more attuned to human rights.

Christianity is influenced very much by social forces: In the US where the Guns, God, and Glory are the prevalent doctrine; Christianity has a less forgiving face; and hate, fear, and ignorance is more readily expressed. In other multi-creed societies such notions are alien and considered abhorrent.

The OT allows for pride (of race, and creed) to take a foothold on society whereas the NT teaches the very opposite.

An eye for an eye is far from turning the other cheek.

Hate is an anathema to Jesus's morals and standards, yet to the fundamental Christians in the US; it is the driving force behind their banner. The hate of their government spreading the wealth, the hate of other religions including other Christian churches, the hate of socialist based systems, the hate of scientific endeavour, the hate......

Mahatma Gandhi once said that he would have been a Christian were it not for Christians.

 

[truthshift]

One day, hopefully soon but probably not in our lifetime, mankind will finally grow up and shed itself of the shackles of the ancient crutch of superstition and the supernatural, and the intrinsically divisive nature of religion will be something we've all moved past, and the term "religious persecution" will be something we can look upon like slavery and the dark ages.

I agree 100% with this ideal and the OP.

 

[truthshift]

The problem with Christianity is that it encompasses two opposing and mutually exclusive doctrines; that of the OT and NT. Americans tend to adhere more to the OT because it justifies the use of force as a means to an end. It advocates fear of the wrath of God. The NT on the other hand teaches the opposite. Were Christianity based solely on the NT; then it would have been a kinder gentler religion; more attuned to human rights.

Christianity is influenced very much by social forces: In the US where the Guns, God, and Glory are the prevalent doctrine; Christianity has a less forgiving face; and hate, fear, and ignorance is more readily expressed. In other multi-creed societies such notions are alien and considered abhorrent.

The OT allows for pride (of race, and creed) to take a foothold on society whereas the NT teaches the very opposite.

An eye for an eye is far from turning the other cheek.

Hate is an anathema to Jesus's morals and standards, yet to the fundamental Christians in the US; it is the driving force behind their banner. The hate of their government spreading the wealth, the hate of other religions including other Christian churches, the hate of socialist based systems, the hate of scientific endeavour, the hate......

Mahatma Gandhi once said that he would have been a Christian were it not for Christians.

One can't pick and choose what they believe in the bible. It must be all or nothing. Believing in everything in it makes it impossible to believe in everything in it.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Mahatma Gandhi once said that he would have been a Christian were it not for Christians.

I hate to jump on one trivial detail... but I've never seen Gandhi saying anything like this and to me it seems out of character for him. It's true that he have respect for many religious traditions, but if anything this made him less accepting of conversions (since, if they are all the same anyway, a conversion attempt probably has underhanded motivations).

It's just, I mislike seeing "appeal to Gandhi" type arguments from people who don't know much of what he was about.

 

[tanzanos]

One can't pick and choose what they believe in the bible. It must be all or nothing. Believing in everything in it makes it impossible to believe in everything in it.

Firstly I was pointing out the shortcomings of Christianity; By adopting two opposing doctrines to represent it. It is akin to holding an olive branch on the one hand while pointing a gun with the other.

The Bible is made up of TWO distinct books; and by unifying them Christians have allowed for countless loopholes that justify the unjustifiable.

 

[Cabal]

I hate to jump on one trivial detail... but I've never seen Gandhi saying anything like this and to me it seems out of character for him. It's true that he have respect for many religious traditions, but if anything this made him less accepting of conversions (since, if they are all the same anyway, a conversion attempt probably has underhanded motivations).

It's just, I mislike seeing "appeal to Gandhi" type arguments from people who don't know much of what he was about.

I think the actual quote is:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I agree with you in the sense that the correct form of the quote doesn't imply that Gandhi would actually have converted to Christianity per se...

 

[MoonlessNight]

The Bible is made up of TWO distinct books; and by unifying them Christians have allowed for countless loopholes that justify the unjustifiable.

Have you ever read the Bible? It's more than two distinct books and certainly has more than two authors.

I would argue that the end result does end up being consistent at least when interpreted in light of tradition, but if it's inconsistent it's definitely not an issue of "the old testament says this but the new testament says that."

 

[keith99]

....
Ok, that said - do you think that there is a different attitude toward Christianity than other religions? A coworker mentioned that he thought it unfair that Jesus is parodied on South Park, Life of Brian, etc., but one would not do that to Allah/Mohammed, Yahweh (Jews), or other religions - at least not in the States.

Is this the same South Park where they did an eposide about having a TV show canceled because they were going to show Mohamed, and everyone put their head in the sane? The same South Park where they had a nice family that turned out to be Mormans and where they ripped the faith aspects to shreds. The same South Park where the guy who was the Voice of Chef quit because of the job they did on Scientology?

And ripping the Jew (and the Jew hater) goes back to before it made TV.

Rumor has it that they are just waiting until enough people actually understand at least the basics of Buddism.

Just pointing out that at least for South Park Christianity has not had a hard time of things and is not singled out. Some minority faiths may get a pass, but not out of fear or respect, but because comedy only works with something where people at least have an image of the target.

 

[keith99]

I hate to jump on one trivial detail... but I've never seen Gandhi saying anything like this and to me it seems out of character for him. It's true that he have respect for many religious traditions, but if anything this made him less accepting of conversions (since, if they are all the same anyway, a conversion attempt probably has underhanded motivations).

It's just, I mislike seeing "appeal to Gandhi" type arguments from people who don't know much of what he was about.

I'll see if I can find his. I vaguely recall he once said to Bonhoeffer something like 'I could accept your Christ, were it not for your Christians'. Bethge should record this if it was said.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

I think the actual quote is:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I agree with you in the sense that the correct form of the quote doesn't imply that Gandhi would actually have converted to Christianity per se...

Who shot him?

What religion did they follow?

Part of the answers are: not and Christian.

 

[Cabal]

Who shot him?

What religion did they follow?

Part of the answers are: not and Christian.

That stops Gandhi from being wrong about some Christians how exactly?

 

[Andreusz]

Polycarp_fan's logic escapes you?

 

[Cabal]

Polycarp_fan's logic escapes you?

I may have missed the point?

 

[Beanieboy]

..

Mahatma Gandhi once said that he would have been a Christian were it not for Christians.

Even though, as it has been pointed out, that Gandhi said that he like your Christ, but did not like your Christians, who were not much like your Christ", I think that the statment by tanzanos is true of others. I know of people who said that they are embarrassed to call themselves Christian, who are said to be known by their love, but this is no longer the case.

It seems a sad tragedy for the Religion, for the Christian community that some are embarrassed to consider themselves Christian for the negative image that conservative Christians have created. In "Stealing Jesus", the author talks about Liberals to reclaim Jesus, and reclaim the characteristics of what a Christian is, even if that means standing up to conservatives.

I also believe that for people who have never known the bible or Christianity, it is often presented as a threat of hell, as an obey or else, of blaming others and forgiving themselves, and turns people off from God as well as Christians. The Pharisees did the same, according to Jesus' strong rebuke against them.

I really wish that they had a new leader, a Revival, that taught love and mercy, taught kindness, that brought joy and hope to the world, instead of gloom, threat and fear. It seems to be a diseased religion that must either change its way, or die off as a fossil, constantly clinging to ways that no longer work (slavery, segregation, etc.). The Christian Church condemned AIDS, rather than saw such people as their neighbor to care for, and has become a follower of the world, that is out shining the Church in its love and compassion. I think there is hope, but one must follow Christ, rather than oneself.

Why do I care? Because they are my neighbor. When they are sick, I also suffer from their illness. I have friends and family that are devout Christian, often confused about what to do in a changing world, and sometimes rushing back to 1st Century words to understand this centuries challenges. I care for them because I think they know it as well, and there is so much potential.

 

[Beanieboy]

You know, again, trying to be fair, when you say "Christian", or "I'm a Christian", you do get a negative response. People often roll their eyes. My partner says that the outspoken Christian drives him crazy, not because of their religion, but because they are so hard to talk to. They believe what they believe, believe they know everything about God, and that there is nothing for them to learn. Example: when discussing homosexuality in the classroom (he teaches teachers), he will sometimes be met with, "I think that's wrong. End of discussion." He will ask, "Well, what if you are teaching a class of 15 year olds, and have gay students? What if you students are making offensive gay jokes - what do you do? What if you student comes to you, says that he is being harrassed for being gay? What do you do?" The student will often shut down, say that it's wrong, and want no more of the discussion.

I think there is a negative stereotype unfairly placed on all Christians - that they are all anti-gay, that they are all a bit crazy, that they are condemning of others and forgiving of themselves. However, there are a lot of really loving, cool Christians. Just because someone is Christian does not mean that they easily fit into a mold we may have for them.

What do you think is the root cause? I think part of it is, while people still go to church, they often keep church out of the home. It is also, in my opinion, that the squeakiest wheels are the worst examples, and give the impression that Christians are on the offense, trying to take over, or take away. There are extremists, like Jesus Camp. And there are posters that I'm convinced were once just jerks, and now, hide behind the label and the bible to condone being a jerk.

I also think that the conservatives have far too much control and face time. I remember watching The Book According to Daniel. It was a cool show about a Episcopal Priest and his family. The daughter sold weed to get a Manga program. His son was gay, his wife seemed to have a drinking problem, and the Priest seemed to be addicted to pain pills. Jesus often appeared out of nowhere, talked casually to him. One doesn't know if the Priest really saw him, if it was the pills, or if it was in the Priest's imagination.

The Show had to deal with some difficult issues, like homosexuality, forgiveness, Mafia pressure, etc. However, it was very insightful, and thoughtful. It presented the Priest's family as real, as trying to deal with the expectations of others who looked to them and demanded that they be perfect.

The result? Many conservatives organized to take it off the air, and succeeded. They believe that they won. However, I thought, "Do you understand what you've done? You have taken a prime time show about a priest talking to Jesus about every day problems, and trying to do the best thing as he fumbles through life. And you took it off the air, and so now, we have Desperate Housewives, Two 1/2 Men, or a number of shows that never mention Jesus, or one's spiritual struggle and path, but rather, superficial soap opera drama.

And they think they've won.