Help on understanding the Trinity..

civilwarbuff said:

I always do, maybe you should check your browser settings.
Everyone else's come thru fine except yours.....Are you right clicking to highlite and then reply? cuz that is only necessary to reply to specific part of a post. Reply button copies the entire post.

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It looks like you added an extra close quote command in your first post. Should be ok now.

StanJ said:

It looks like you added an extra close quote command in your first post. Should be ok now.

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Looks much better......much easier to read......

A sensible link. https://www.gci.org/God/trinity
John
NZ

The Christian Girl said:

So of course I believe in the Son, Father and Holy Ghost, but I believe that they are all in one. Some Christian's like the one's who are into the Trinity believe that they are all separate spirits. Trinity is found no where in the Bible though. So how does that even make sense at all? I also have another question concerning the matter. So how about Baptism? Are there really several ways to Baptiste or is there really only one real way?

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God is one God in three distinct persons (Why Modalism is Unbiblical):

Modalism teaches that God just puts on a mask or takes on a title or name. It teaches that there is no difference between the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit. Which is is not what the Bible teaches.

Why is it unbiblical?

Well, the Bible clearly teaches that there are distinctions within the persons of the Godhead. Here are a couple of quick points why the Scriptures are against the idea of Modalism.

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

Also, I imagine those who believe in Modalism like to quote 1 John 5:7 as proof text for their case, too.

However, they also have to look at what else John has written on this topic, too. For in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

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Without the Person of Jesus, the Atonement is denied.

What Modalism is actually saying is that the separate person of Jesus Christ, the Son, is not real and never died on the cross because He does not exist. A separate Person does not exist. Only the Father (or Almighty God) exists and changes his face to turn into and look like the Son. This is a bold denial of God as a whole (since Jesus Christ is fully 100% God) and a denial of the work of the existing Second Person of God: the Son.

A human example would be that a Father agreed with his son that he would go out and pay an extremely expensive price for criminals to be free from their death sentences, and that his son would own them and they would be given to him; and he would show them compassion. After hearing about freedom from their judicial punishments of death because of the son’s payment, those criminals— instead of going with the son who bought them— believe the father is actually the one who bought them because he morphed into the mode of the son. Furthermore, the criminals claim that the son who actually bought them with his father’s urging does not even exist. They believe only the father exists and shifts into a different looking mode to become his own son, but is still the exact same person as there is not a son person and a father person, but only a father person who shifts modes. He just changed into the son. So the son who actually bought them with an extremely expensive price is denied as well as his hard work earning the payment for them to be free. This is a major insult to the son. But in reality the only way they could be free is if they understand that the son is actually a real person who exists and is not the father, and they follow him. Because since these criminals deny the son who bought them, and instead believe his father shape shifted into a son to become him, that real son that exists separately from his father will deny them in the presence of his father.

Modalism denies Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches that if you deny Jesus Christ (being the Son of God, a separate Person from the Father, and separate from the Person of the Holy Spirit), He will deny you in the presence of God the Father. Jesus Christ Himself said, “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and that of the Father and the holy angels” (Luke 9:26). Jesus in Luke 12:9 also said, “…but whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.” So it is obvious that Modalism denies Christ despite the fact they try to claim they promote Jesus and follow Him. The Oneness “Jesus” is a “false Jesus” that does not exist and profanes, and blasphemies the true living, eternal, Son of God. It misplaces credit for propitiation onto the Father, when propitiation was strictly something the Son did. Romans 3:24 says that the redemption is in Christ Jesus, and in verse 25 it says, “God presented Him as the propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over sins previously committed.” It does not say that the Father was the propitiation. 1 John 2:2 explicitly states that Jesus Christ alone was the propitiation: “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.” Since the Trinity is true, Modalism is denying God by claiming the Person of the Son does not exist. 1 John 2:23 expresses it simply, “No one who denies the Son can have the Father…” All repentant sinners become Christians who receive salvation. Christians are saved because they call on the name of the Lord and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. If someone repents to a false God that does not exist, one that denies the existence of the Person of the Son, they will not have salvation. Romans 10:9 says, “…if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” If a person claims this verse for a Modalistic Jesus, one that denies the Person of the Son, there is no power for salvation.

Modalism denies the Father’s ability to be a righteous judge

Not only is Modalism an offense to the Person of the Son, but it offends the Person of the Father by ignoring His sacrificial giving of His one and only Son, the Son which He loves so much in relation within the Godhead; and it claims instead that He is the one who died and gave the propitiation for sins. Ignoring the extreme sacrifice the Father allowed to happen to His precious Son is an extreme insult to the love of the Father for sinners that He would allow His own Son (who was willing) to be punished in their place; and not only that, but that the Father is the one who gave out all of the crushing punishment to His own Son. Isaiah 54:6 says, “The LORD has punished Him for the iniquity of us all.” Also, 2 Corinthians 5:21 states, “He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”Modalism denies God this glory and insults the Father. The Father remained pure and untouched by sin and is the righteous judge that gave out His wrath onto Christ. If Modalism is true it means that God existing in one person, being the Father would have became sinful and then killed himself. There would be no righteous judge untouched by sin able to pour out the wrath. It would be the Father becoming sin on His own and then punishing Himself. This idea cancels out a pure and holy Person who is able to remain innocent who can judge sin. In reality, since the Trinity is what is true, there is a righteous and clean judge untouched by sin that was able to pour out His wrath onto Jesus Christ (who was made sin willingly by the Father) and complete the ability for salvation to be completed. To deny the Father’s giving of His real eternally existing Son is blasphemy, and it cancels out the ability for salvation. Such a person as the “god father” of Modalism does not exist and it profanes the true Father’s work. Therefore, Modalism completely denies the true Father.

1 John 2:22 firmly states, “He is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.”

Of course the most basic reason why Modalism cancels out salvation is that if the Trinity is true, it means that God is Three-As-One and anything other than a triune God does not exist. Worshiping a God that does not exist is idolatry. Modalism is a false religion and God commands that there should never be any other gods worshiped besides Him (Exodus 20:3). There is no forgiveness of sins if a person puts their trust into a false god. Just because the name of a false God uses the same titles and names as the true, triune God of Scripture does not mean it is the same God.Matthew 24:24 claims there will be false Christ’s coming, and 1 Corinthians 11:4 says that people can preach a different Jesus and a different spirit and Christians should not put up with it.

The modalistic god denies the Eternal Person of the Son, thus meaning they deny the true God and profane His atonement.

Article Source:
https://whitedragonawa.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/why-modalism-is-a-damnable-heresy/

Johnnz said:

A sensible link. https://www.gci.org/God/trinity
John
NZ

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Splendid! Thank You!

Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

The Trinity essentially means "Three in One".

A. "The Trinity in Science"
There are many examples of the Trinity within nature.

Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.
Man's Formation = Dust, Mist (i.e. Water), Breadth of Life.
Man (Made in God's Image) = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.
Time = Past, Present, Future.
Earth = Crust, Mantle, Core

The Trinity, Godhead, or Triune Nature of God is simply this...

God = Father, the Son, Holy Spirit.

Oh, and despite the fact that "siamese twins" are the result of the fall of man (or sin), they do tell us that a life can be one body and yet still have two or more minds to it.

However, unlike siamese twins, just to be clear, the Lord Our God is...

One God with three distinct but connected persons acting in perfect harmony or of one mind.

B. "The Trinity and the Majority of the World's Views"
Also, the majority of your Biblical Cults and the Atheistic World do not believe Jesus was God Almighty in the flesh. In other words, if you believe Jesus is God Almighty, you believe in God's Triune Nature. That is why God made such a big deal out of being resurrected "three days" later after being crucified on the cross thru the flesh of a man. The Lord was declaring that He was not a mere man but that He was God Almighty!

C. "The Trinity in Scripture"
All you have to do is research the internet for verses that support the Trinity (or the Godhead) and you will have a long list by the time you are done.

However, personally I think the following verse below pretty much sums up the fact about God's triune nature, though:

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." ~ (1 John 5:7)

Anyways, I hope this helps.

With loving kindness to you in Christ:

Sincerely,

~Jason.


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Jason0047 said:

Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

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Think God has any idea what's going on ?
He knows perfectly.
Man messes up everything.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Think God has any idea what's going on ?
He knows perfectly.
Man messes up everything.

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I really do not think it has anything to do with that.

The word "Trinity" existed before the translation of the King James and the Tyndale New Testament.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=trinity&allowed_in_frame=0

In other words, the word "Trinity" is just another way of saying, "Godhead."


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For the Israelites/ Hebrews that is totally foreign. (both )

yeshuaslavejeff said:

For the Israelites/ Hebrews that is totally foreign. (both )

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Scripture says there is no Savior besides God (i.e. God the Father) (Isaiah 43:11).
If Jesus is supposed to be a Savior and yet not God then the Scriptures are in contradiction with each other.
For clearly the New Testament hammers home the idea that Jesus is our Savior.
Also, Scripture repeatedly declares Jesus is God in many places, too.


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Jason0047 said:

Scripture says there is no Savior besides God (i.e. God the Father) (Isaiah 43:11).
If Jesus is supposed to be a Savior and yet not God then the Scriptures are in contradiction with each other.
For clearly the New Testament hammers home the idea that Jesus is our Savior.
Also, Scripture repeatedly declares Jesus is God in many places, too.


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You might have a good point ... (but no one or at least not me EVER said Jesus is not God).
I just
don't know though, as I can't read your mind nor your heart.
i.e. what's your motive ? a lot of posters have posted their motives, and not always good....

St. Patrick showed a clover as having three leaves. It is one clover plant.

The Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost to believers assembled in Jerusalem. God gave the good news to the Jews first and soon afterward to the Gentiles.

dqhall said:

St. Patrick showed a clover as having three leaves. It is one clover plant.

The Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost to believers assembled in Jerusalem. God gave the good news to the Jews first and soon afterward to the Gentiles.

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Yes Jesus told the Jews the Kingdom was at hand but they rejected Him as their predicted Messiah and therefore instructed the Apostles to the preach the same gospel to the Gentles whereas we believed and the Jews still don't believe who Jesus is.

The Christian Girl said:

So of course I believe in the Son, Father and Holy Ghost, but I believe that they are all in one. Some Christian's like the one's who are into the Trinity believe that they are all separate spirits. Trinity is found no where in the Bible though. So how does that even make sense at all? I also have another question concerning the matter. So how about Baptism? Are there really several ways to Baptiste or is there really only one real way?

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yes, They are one, and the Holy Spirit is just the remote operation/administration of God, because physically He is not here but in heaven and can be here in the form of Holy Spirit

Blessings

dqhall said:

St. Patrick showed a clover as having three leaves. It is one clover plant.

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The Clover Analogy is Partialism as this video notes (but is "Partialism" considered to be one of the historical Trinitarian heresies )

StanJ said:

It's tantamount to the same thing.

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Only in the loosest application of the term. Lots of people inadvertently believe heretical things because of ignorance, miscues in understanding, etc. Others believe heretical things because they purposefully reject that which is considered to be orthodox teaching. I don't know which group you fall into, and frankly I'm not interested. My only point was that what you suggested in your original response represents a heretical viewpoint. If you hold to that viewpoint, that's your business; but that doesn't change the fact that this perspective is not an orthodox one, regardless of your agreement or disagreement with it.

StanJ said:

So far you are the only one that seems confused.

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Perhaps, but I'm not aware of what I'm confused about.

Jason0047 said:

A. "The Trinity in Science"
There are many examples of the Trinity within nature.

Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.
Man's Formation = Dust, Mist (i.e. Water), Breadth of Life.
Man (Made in God's Image) = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.
Time = Past, Present, Future.
Earth = Crust, Mantle, Core

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These are not analogous to the nature of the Trinity. God is not a composite of persons...that is tri-theism.

Jason0047 said:

The Trinity, Godhead, or Triune Nature of God is simply this...

God = Father, the Son, Holy Spirit.

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This is not a very good way to describe the triune nature of God. God is a not a composition of three persons; that misses the nature of the oneness of God, and undermines the true-"co-eternal-ness" of the persons of the Godhead. This is why the creeds and other orthodox expressions of the trinity speak apophatically and paradoxically, as God cannot be reduced to the equation, nor can the nature of the Trinity be described analogously by that which is not God.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

You might have a good point ... (but no one or at least not me EVER said Jesus is not God).

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Then why are attacking the use of the word "Trinity"?

I just
don't know though, as I can't read your mind nor your heart.
i.e. what's your motive ? a lot of posters have posted their motives, and not always good....

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My motive concerning what?
My motive in general is to glorify God and His Word.

If you are looking for my statement of faith: You can check that out here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-your-statement-of-faith.7903197/

Anyways, may God bless you.

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toLiJC said:

...the Holy Spirit is just the remote operation/administration of God, because physically He is not here but in heaven and can be here in the form of Holy Spirit

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God the Father is Spirit only (John 4:24), He's not "physical" (no one has ever seen Him .. i.e. John 1:18). The Son of God on the other hand ... (i.e. John 1:14; John 12:41/Isaiah 6:1).

Also, the Bible seems pretty clear that God the Holy Spirit is just a wee bit more than the "remote operation" of God (who BTW, is omnipresent, so "remote operations" are unnecessary ). For example:


Yours and His,
David