Help me.

[kotwebck]

What is there to understand when God orders the massacre of "suckling babes".
You keep trying to justify the unjustifiable. You speak as if only you understand and as if you have knowledge of what god is thinking.
I am only glad such an evil god does not exist; otherwise it would be preferable to have Lucifer rule since he is not evil like God. Poor sod; all he did was offer the fruit of knowledge to man and rebel against the boss and he gets to be the evil one? Since history is written by the victors; then whose to say Lucifer was not right?

You seem very informed when it comes to the Christain beliefs, are you making a study on Christianity?

Off topic"
Before I became a Christian I met a lot of Pagans and Wicans that made an intense study of the Bible, turns out in the end that they were not who they claimed to be (Pagan or Wican) and was just mascarading as them, they did believe in God but sided against him.

Some people just want the worst and live for destruction and death, they actually get obsessed by it.

Not saying that you are like that, just 2 cents worth I guess."

 

[tanzanos]

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong, until then, I will continue to see truth wherever it may be found, and that starts with trying to understand what others are saying, not just dismissing their ideas because they do not fit with mine....

Fair enough! Just remember that TRUTH is a relative term?

Have a very nice day!

 

[tanzanos]

Muslims fail to realize that the Islaamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith

Really now! Have you heard the Baptists', pentecostal and evangelists', not to mention Calvinists' view on how to go to heaven? They say that if you DON'T accept Christ you will go to hell even if you have lived an honest life and spent your life helping others. Besides the Quran clearly states that Jews and Christians will go to heaven since they believe in the ONE God; the God of Abraham and Moses. Also Issa bin Myriam, Bin Yusuf (Jesus of Mary and Joseph) is highly respected as a Prophet in Islam and actually carries the death sentence if anyone blasphemes against Jesus (Iran).

Have a very interesting and enjoyable day

 

[tanzanos]

You seem very informed when it comes to the Christain beliefs, are you making a study on Christianity?

Off topic"
Before I became a Christian I met a lot of Pagans and Wicans that made an intense study of the Bible, turns out in the end that they were not who they claimed to be (Pagan or Wican) and was just mascarading as them, they did believe in God but sided against him.

Some people just want the worst and live for destruction and death, they actually get obsessed by it.

Not saying that you are like that, just 2 cents worth I guess."

Fair question. Most atheists belonged to some faith before they decided to stop believing. I stopped believing when I was around 10 years old. I lived in Tanzania on a farm. Now what my eyes saw and what I learned of the world; only proved beyond a doubt that if there is a God then he surely is a very evil being. Also I did not believe anything until Science told me it was true. As a Greek I could not avoid learning about Christianity since it is part of our cultural identity. That is why I say "Atheist Christian" above my avatar. I support my church but do not under any circumstance believe in superstitions. We need to spend more on helping people and less on wars and pumping the fear of God into people's lives.
"N'kosi sikeleli Afrika"

 

[kotwebck]

Fair question. Most atheists belonged to some faith before they decided to stop believing. I stopped believing when I was around 10 years old. I lived in Tanzania on a farm. Now what my eyes saw and what I learned of the world; only proved beyond a doubt that if there is a God then he surely is a very evil being. Also I did not believe anything until Science told me it was true. As a Greek I could not avoid learning about Christianity since it is part of our cultural identity. That is why I say "Atheist Christian" above my avatar. I support my church but do not under any circumstance believe in superstitions. We need to spend more on helping people and less on wars and pumping the fear of God into people's lives.
"N'kosi sikeleli Afrika"

What was it like living in Tanzania (I assume you still go there)?

Yeah I've seen some pretty bad stuff here in SA too ... still do ... the Christian church was forced upon everyone (whites & blacks) here for years, until we became a democrasy (freedom). Most people are now moving away just because of what happend (me, I really discovered God after all this has happend, so it's go on impact).

But I do still see hate, and intollarance, if only people could stay out of each others business, accept, and even maybe respect the other. Earth would become a much better place to be.

Off Topic: "N'kosi sikeleli Afrika" means God bless Africa, I like it cause we are not saying God bless South Africa we are talking the whole of Africa ... says something about the responsibility to other nations and humans?

 

[visionary]

Fair enough! Just remember that TRUTH is a relative term?

Have a very nice day!

Truth is only relative to God.. To us, truth can only come from God and is not relative.

 

[tanzanos]

What was it like living in Tanzania (I assume you still go there)?

Yes I do go there often since my mother and brothers still and will always live there. My Grandfather went there in 1896. Although we are Greeks born and raised in Tanzania; we grew up in rural Tanzania. Africa is so beautiful it is beyond words! Today it is full of false hopes and dreams. The whole country is full of moneymaking born again churches and rampant corruption! People cannot afford to feed their families yet they own cell phones. The standard of education is dropping and the Chinese are raping the natural resources for next to nothing. Africa has adopted the worst that the rest of the world has to offer.

Off Topic: "N'kosi sikeleli Afrika" means God bless Africa, I like it cause we are not saying God bless South Africa we are talking the whole of Africa ... says something about the responsibility to other nations and humans?

Not only does Tanzania have the same Music but the same words albeit in swahili in their National anthem! " Mungu ibariki Arfica"! God bless Africa!

 

[razzelflabben]

Fair enough! Just remember that TRUTH is a relative term?

Have a very nice day!

truth is relative, good call, absolute truth is not...

 

[razzelflabben]

Really now! Have you heard the Baptists', pentecostal and evangelists', not to mention Calvinists' view on how to go to heaven? They say that if you DON'T accept Christ you will go to hell even if you have lived an honest life and spent your life helping others.

right, and they are Baptist, pentecostals, evangelists, and calvinists, from the beginning to the present I have insisted that my discussions be about believers as spoken of in the bible itself, not including in that understanding all the traditions, odd teachings, etc.

Besides the Quran clearly states that Jews and Christians will go to heaven since they believe in the ONE God; the God of Abraham and Moses. Also Issa bin Myriam, Bin Yusuf (Jesus of Mary and Joseph) is highly respected as a Prophet in Islam and actually carries the death sentence if anyone blasphemes against Jesus (Iran).

and? can't figure out what point you are trying to make.

 

[razzelflabben]

Fair question. Most atheists belonged to some faith before they decided to stop believing. I stopped believing when I was around 10 years old. I lived in Tanzania on a farm. Now what my eyes saw and what I learned of the world; only proved beyond a doubt that if there is a God then he surely is a very evil being. Also I did not believe anything until Science told me it was true. As a Greek I could not avoid learning about Christianity since it is part of our cultural identity. That is why I say "Atheist Christian" above my avatar. I support my church but do not under any circumstance believe in superstitions. We need to spend more on helping people and less on wars and pumping the fear of God into people's lives.
"N'kosi sikeleli Afrika"

Got a question? You say, "Now what my eyes saw and what I learned of the world; only proved beyond a doubt that if there is a God then he surely is a very evil being." what would compel you to blame all that you saw and learned on God? I have heard this argument before but don't understand it....

 

[razzelflabben]

What was it like living in Tanzania (I assume you still go there)?

Yeah I've seen some pretty bad stuff here in SA too ... still do ... the Christian church was forced upon everyone (whites & blacks) here for years, until we became a democrasy (freedom). Most people are now moving away just because of what happend (me, I really discovered God after all this has happend, so it's go on impact).

But I do still see hate, and intollarance, if only people could stay out of each others business, accept, and even maybe respect the other. Earth would become a much better place to be.

Off Topic: "N'kosi sikeleli Afrika" means God bless Africa, I like it cause we are not saying God bless South Africa we are talking the whole of Africa ... says something about the responsibility to other nations and humans?

Maybe this is tied to the previous post, maybe not, but I have always found it strange that people ascribe everything done in the name of a god to be from that god, Islam is a great example...we have extremists who are terrorist to put it simply, so should we condem all of Islam for those extremists? Blame Allah for what a few extremists claim is Allah's? That to me seems to be the most rediculous accusation against any religion, any diety, and yet probably the most common religion to face this (throughtout the world, not in pockets) is christianity. Why? Doesn't seem to make any kind of reasonable sense to me.

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes I do go there often since my mother and brothers still and will always live there. My Grandfather went there in 1896. Although we are Greeks born and raised in Tanzania; we grew up in rural Tanzania. Africa is so beautiful it is beyond words! Today it is full of false hopes and dreams. The whole country is full of moneymaking born again churches and rampant corruption! People cannot afford to feed their families yet they own cell phones. The standard of education is dropping and the Chinese are raping the natural resources for next to nothing. Africa has adopted the worst that the rest of the world has to offer.

it is very interesting to see the difference in views from country to country, tribe to tribe, etc. My husbands family were missionaries in Nigeria, the growth of Christianity there was and the reports we get, it still is staggering...it is in "Christianity" that they have and/or are finding the freedoms from the oppressors that they desperately need. The contrast is fascinating as far as I am concerned, would make an interesting study if I had the money to travel to do the study....

 

[kotwebck]

Maybe this is tied to the previous post, maybe not, but I have always found it strange that people ascribe everything done in the name of a god to be from that god, Islam is a great example...we have extremists who are terrorist to put it simply, so should we condem all of Islam for those extremists? Blame Allah for what a few extremists claim is Allah's? That to me seems to be the most rediculous accusation against any religion, any diety, and yet probably the most common religion to face this (throughtout the world, not in pockets) is christianity. Why? Doesn't seem to make any kind of reasonable sense to me.

In South Africa we understand this, and still see it daily, people seem to get obsessed with other peoples lives. If someone looks different, believes different or even speak different - they are considered an threat and treated like an enemy ... read some of the posts abound here and you will see it coming through ... this is a human flaw that is preventing us from living in peace etc (lots of other issues) too.

Racism, and sexism is two small members of the predigest family

Our Lord warns us against this on numerous occasions.

 

[kotwebck]

Yes I do go there often since my mother and brothers still and will always live there. My Grandfather went there in 1896. Although we are Greeks born and raised in Tanzania; we grew up in rural Tanzania. Africa is so beautiful it is beyond words! Today it is full of false hopes and dreams. The whole country is full of moneymaking born again churches and rampant corruption! People cannot afford to feed their families yet they own cell phones. The standard of education is dropping and the Chinese are raping the natural resources for next to nothing. Africa has adopted the worst that the rest of the world has to offer.

I believe that the "false hope and dreams" is going to turn. We also have a lot of corruption and yes we have our share of people trying to make money from the poor using our Lord's name.

I keep an positive outlook knowing that it's all in God's plan, and this far it's all been good to us.

 

[tanzanos]

it is in "Christianity" that they have and/or are finding the freedoms from the oppressors that they desperately need.

The Genocide in Rwanda was committed by Christians on Christians! What good did Christianity bring them? Why did Christianity not stop them from killing?
As I have stated before: "If there is a God; then he is an Evil God". For if he exists and allows for such crimes to be committed, allows for such evil even to exist while he shows up and helps some Baptist in America find a job; is tantamount to Hubris. I have seen starving children die! I have seen people burnt alive for stealing, I have seen the DEVOUT suffer immeasurably; for what fault have they that are truly believers yet God punishes them with drought, pestilence, and wars. Don't give me the "free will" answer: Explain why God sits idly by and punishes the innocent while allowing the rich and Hypocritical pastors of televangelism to live happy lives?
Such a God should not exist for if he does then I challenge him to show his face to me and hear my accusations to him.
I am only glad that Gods don't exist; for this gives us a chance to to better our lot without God coming and demanding we "Bash the heads of our children on the cobblestones". Read the bible and you will see what I mean!

I honestly think you are a well meaning and good person and I do not wish to make you an atheist. Also I hope you have a nice day!

 

[razzelflabben]

In South Africa we understand this, and still see it daily, people seem to get obsessed with other peoples lives. If someone looks different, believes different or even speak different - they are considered an threat and treated like an enemy ... read some of the posts abound here and you will see it coming through ... this is a human flaw that is preventing us from living in peace etc (lots of other issues) too.

Racism, and sexism is two small members of the predigest family

Our Lord warns us against this on numerous occasions.

right prejudices, and the funny thing is that the bible teaches that the man who submits himself to the authority of God in His life via the Holy Spirit within, will no longer live in prejudice but in love and I have seen this happen....I have also seen people who claim it, but their life tells a different story, which is why the question came up in the first place...

 

[razzelflabben]

The Genocide in Rwanda was committed by Christians on Christians! What good did Christianity bring them? Why did Christianity not stop them from killing?

this is a common misconception that many believers fight, christianity the religion will not stop this kind of behavior because religions are based on human evils....the change is in God, and what God does....which brings in the question, why atribbute to God what is man's even if man lies and calls it God's? Wouldn't the sin then be on man and not God? I just don't get why we insist on calling God evil because evil men claimed they were doing it for God....look at it this way, when a guy comes along and says he hears God tell him to murder his family, we lock him up for being crazy, so on a more mass scale why wouldn't we say, "that isn't consistent with what the bible tells us God wants, your all nuts...?"

As I have stated before: "If there is a God; then he is an Evil God". For if he exists and allows for such crimes to be committed, allows for such evil even to exist while he shows up and helps some Baptist in America find a job; is tantamount to Hubris.

again, this shows taking every claim and believing it is from God, why do that? what compells us to accept every claim of man of what God does, as God but in other religions, we call them the extremists.....?

I have seen starving children die! I have seen people burnt alive for stealing, I have seen the DEVOUT suffer immeasurably; for what fault have they that are truly believers yet God punishes them with drought, pestilence, and wars. Don't give me the "free will" answer:

personally I don't buy the free will answer either.

Explain why God sits idly by and punishes the innocent while allowing the rich and Hypocritical pastors of televangelism to live happy lives?

well, first let me say that in most cases, neither are God's, but that is a different topic....the bible says, that God allows it to rain on the just and the unjust alike....that He set things in motion and allows them to themselves....in fact, God's intervention in man's life other than to call man to restoration of innocence, is very limited, much more so that most are comfortable with...and btw, just for clarity, according to scripture and the world, the evil you see is not God's punishment, but rather man's evil...

Such a God should not exist for if he does then I challenge him to show his face to me and hear my accusations to him.

He does hear your accusations and wishes for you to listen to His love for you and the world you have seen....often times, we are too busy speaking to hear what others are saying.....

I am only glad that Gods don't exist; for this gives us a chance to to better our lot without God coming and demanding we "Bash the heads of our children on the cobblestones". Read the bible and you will see what I mean!

What I see is a misunderstanding of the OT and what God was telling the people, but again, sometimes we just have to be quiet and listen and when you are ready, God will still be there explaining to you what you don't yet understand.

I honestly think you are a well meaning and good person and I do not wish to make you an atheist. Also I hope you have a nice day!

Not sure how to respond to that, I have seen enough of God and man to know that I would take my chances on a loving God over an evil man anyday of the year.....

Have a great one as well....

 

[tanzanos]

this is a common misconception that many believers fight, christianity the religion will not stop this kind of behavior because religions are based on human evils....the change is in God, and what God does....which brings in the question, why atribbute to God what is man's even if man lies and calls it God's? Wouldn't the sin then be on man and not God? I just don't get why we insist on calling God evil because evil men claimed they were doing it for God....look at it this way, when a guy comes along and says he hears God tell him to murder his family, we lock him up for being crazy, so on a more mass scale why wouldn't we say, "that isn't consistent with what the bible tells us God wants, your all nuts...?" again, this shows taking every claim and believing it is from God, why do that? what compells us to accept every claim of man of what God does, as God but in other religions, we call them the extremists.....? personally I don't buy the free will answer either. well, first let me say that in most cases, neither are God's, but that is a different topic....the bible says, that God allows it to rain on the just and the unjust alike....that He set things in motion and allows them to themselves....in fact, God's intervention in man's life other than to call man to restoration of innocence, is very limited, much more so that most are comfortable with...and btw, just for clarity, according to scripture and the world, the evil you see is not God's punishment, but rather man's evil... He does hear your accusations and wishes for you to listen to His love for you and the world you have seen....often times, we are too busy speaking to hear what others are saying..... What I see is a misunderstanding of the OT and what God was telling the people, but again, sometimes we just have to be quiet and listen and when you are ready, God will still be there explaining to you what you don't yet understand. Not sure how to respond to that, I have seen enough of God and man to know that I would take my chances on a loving God over an evil man anyday of the year.....

Have a great one as well....

So what you are saying is that the Bible is the word of men and not God's! This I agree with totally. Now what good is God when he just sits by and allows satan to rule? Really now either he is a lazy God or he enjoys watching evil or he just plainly does not exist. Take your pick!

Have a nice evening

 

[razzelflabben]

So what you are saying is that the Bible is the word of men and not God's!

not at all, what I am saying is that just because man claims something to be from God doesn't mean it is.....let me see, a good example....let's take something not offense to most so that we don't stir things to the point of getting off topic...


10So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. '


Which simply means he died....it's God's interpretation we are interested in, not man's which is why we must read it in context and in translation to fully understand what God says, not what man interprets....and just to be clear, we see the same problem with every religious work....

This I agree with totally. Now what good is God when he just sits by and allows satan to rule? Really now either he is a lazy God or he enjoys watching evil or he just plainly does not exist. Take your pick!

Have a nice evening

Or Satan has already been defeated but the time of reconciling things is not yet come.....let me see, an analogy, I really do like analogies....many years ago, I was visiting my grandmother, her brother was there (my great uncle) we sat down to play a game of monopoly. As the game progressed, and people went bankrupt, it soon came down to he and I, battling it out. Things would go to my favor and he would be all but bankrupt, then everything would shift over to his favor and I would end up almost bankrupt...back and forth things would go, see sawing from one to the other, so why didn't the game end? Because it wasn't time, it wasn't over, there were still things to be done, neither of us was out of money and property.....eventually it did end of course, but only in the appropriate time of the game.....now that is not to say, this is a game for God, don't read into the analogy more than is there, but rather it is to say that there are things yet to do, it's not time for it to be over....

As to satan, I want to ask why you attribute all evil to him? Where is man's responsibility for man? When does man accept his own responsbility over his own evil desires...? The bible warns us to not attribute things to satan that are not his.....Again, it's all about blame where blame is due...if man is evil but blames his evil on God or satan either one, why assume they are right, why not find out if they are acting under the influence of whom they claim? This is what I don't get, you are blaming everything on either God or Satan and yet scripture is clear that man is responsible for his own evils....why not take God at His word and blame man for his own evils?

 

[tanzanos]

This is what I don't get, you are blaming everything on either God or Satan and yet scripture is clear that man is responsible for his own evils....why not take God at His word and blame man for his own evils?

So what need do we have for Deities? Since it all boils down to the evil of man while God does not intervene? The problem here is that we are adhering to a God invented by Bronze age goat herders complete with the morals of the time. Humanity has evolved its moral standards and religion is only a hindrance in this case.
I am sorry but you have failed to address my questions with direct answers. You seem to be avoiding the core of the subject and have totally avoided giving blame where blame is due.

Have a nice day