Help me understand this

[Avodat]

What version do you recommend? It doesn't seem difficult to me either....it just seems he's clearly and plainly saying it's okay to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols after Yeshua and the Jerusalem Council said otherwise.

I plan to go through the link this weekend. I haven't had the chance to do it yet and thank you for providing it.

I'll PM you over the weekend - I'm enjoying the exegetical gymnastics we are seeing on here as the issue is addressed!

 

[mercy1061]

If the following are not contradictions, please explain to me how they agree so I can forget about it and be at peace:

Revelation 2: (NKJV)14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.
This was James' ruling at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:20 and the decision all agreed upon..

Then Paul clearly teaches three times that there is nothing wrong in itself eating meat sacrificed to idols. (Romans 14:21;1 Corinthians 8:4-13, and 1 Corinthians 10:19-29.) The first time Paul addresses the question of "eating meat sacrificed to idols," Paul answers: "But food will not commend us to God; neither if we eat not...." (1 Cor. 8:8.)

Paul then explained it is only necessary to abstain from eating such meat if you are around a "weaker" brother who thinks an idol is something. (1 Cor. 8:7, 8:10, 9:22.) Then, and only then, must you abstain. The reason is that then a brother might be emboldened to do something he thinks is sinful. The brother is weak for believing eating meat sacrificed to an idol is wrong. This is thus a sin for him to eat, even though you know it is not sinful to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Thus, even though you know better than your weaker brother that it is no sin to do so, it is better to abstain in his presence than cause him to sin against his weak conscience and be "destroyed." (1 Cor. 8:11.).

Paul's Contradictions of Jesus

I'm not looking to prove anything, but what I read seems to be a contradiction and it would make me truly happy to have someone show me that it is not in contradiction.

Idols are nothing, but why would you want to eat at the table of demons? You can not eat at the table from the L-rd, and also eat from the table from demons. Do you understand the doctrine of Balaam, how he taught the king to put a stumbling block before the people of G-d? You can not have two masters, you can not love both G-d and money. Those who worship idols, eat food sacrificed to idols, they also worship demons, they also cause the people to commit fornication . The food sacrificed to idols are offered to demons, therefore the church should not participate in the worship of demons.

 

[Laureate]

11Nothing that enters the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.

17 Do not you yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Matthew 15:11, 17-18

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no one bseides Elohym only one.

6 For to us there is but one Elohym, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Y'shua H'Meshiach by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man this knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commends us not to Elohym: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed otherwise by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

11 And through your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom H'Meshiach died?

12 But when you sin so against our brothers, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against H'Meshiach.

13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world stands, or inadvertently I cause my brother to offend.
1Corinthians 8:4, 6-13

Here in verse 8 Paul is speaking of eating meat itself, that it is neither helpful or harmful, but carefully explains that it is harmful for one to eat meat that has consciously been sacrificed unto an idol, he goes on and on echoing H'Meshiach, concerning how it is O.k. to eat, yet in each case discourages eating meat sacrificed unto idols, I do not see a contradiction, just a careful explanation in each case you cited.

 

[Laureate]

Yet, if you really would like to trouble your consciousness, consider how todays meat market (in general) do not slaughter animals for the sake of redeeming souls, but for the sake of redemption (i.e. Money which is an idol) itself.

 

[visionary]

I am thankful there was manuscripts that survived the dark ages.

 

[Avodat]

RR - see your PMs.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Have you read our SoP? You are not to be teaching or debating in this forum if you are not of the Messianic Judiasm faith. Please read it and the Poll before posting further. Thank you.

I was not baiting him, I only asked him questions, he refused to answer my questions, he also told me how I would answer his questions, so I reminded him that this is a torah observant forum as you already know. I hear that you are not a blind believer; I have perfect vision, according to my optometrist.

So... Just curious - as no one seems to have questioned this exchange between yedida and mercy and there does seem to be a [short?] break in this thread, so I hope not to hijack it here.

The "Messianic Judaism faith" part I do understand from the SoP [not that I consider this to be a great thing, but it is what it is... and so I live with it without too much concern. The rules have been here longer than me ]. But the "Torah Observant forum" part is less clear to me. So then, are all of you here that consider yourselves to be of the Messianic Judaism faith Torah Observant??? Just curious what the deal is here, as I have Jewish [halachically Jewish by natural birth - of both orthodox and secular families] friends who genuinely trust in Yeshua as their Savior and diligently serve Him [and have suffered the family consequences], but who would not at all consider themselves as "Torah Observant" - would they be allowed to debate here [mercy??]???

Yeah, I am annoyed... To be perfectly blunt, some of you here should spend more time reading, chewing, swallowing, and digesting Scripture and less time... Ah.... Sorry....

Ken

 

[aniello]

So... Just curious - as no one seems to have questioned this exchange between yedida and mercy and there does seem to be a [short?] break in this thread, so I hope not to hijack it here.

The "Messianic Judaism faith" part I do understand from the SoP [not that I consider this to be a great thing, but it is what it is... and so I live with it without too much concern. The rules have been here longer than me ]. But the "Torah Observant forum" part is less clear to me. So then, are all of you here that consider yourselves to be of the Messianic Judaism faith Torah Observant??? Just curious what the deal is here, as I have Jewish [halachically Jewish by natural birth - of both orthodox and secular families] friends who genuinely trust in Yeshua as their Savior and diligently serve Him [and have suffered the family consequences], but who would not at all consider themselves as "Torah Observant" - would they be allowed to debate here [mercy??]???

Yeah, I am annoyed... To be perfectly blunt, some of you here should spend more time reading, chewing, swallowing, and digesting Scripture and less time... Ah.... Sorry....

Ken

Mightn't you be kind enough to suggest which scriptures, specifically, you think we should give attention, study and adherence to?

Are there any of the commands in Torah you find objectionable? What ones I am wondering? Some of them make me feel uncomfortable, I admit. However, I believe G-d is incontrovertibly correct, regardless of my weaknesses.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Mightn't you be kind enough to suggest which scriptures, specifically, you think we should give attention, study and adherence to?

Are there any of the commands in Torah you find objectionable? What ones I am wondering? Some of them make me feel uncomfortable, I admit. However, I believe G-d is incontrovertibly correct, regardless of my weaknesses.

1. ALL, while trying to piece it all together as a very complex jigsaw puzzle in which all of the pieces DO fit perfectly together even if we cannot (yet - never in this lifetime) fully and correctly assemble them all. Myself, I trust in this perfect fitting because God does not lie. So this simple trust causes me to look very closely at apparent contradictions. Others may disagree. That is their choice. I do not argue with them, only God can open their eyes.

2. No. However, since you ask about 'any', let me ask you: When was the last time that a member of the Messianic congregation living in pre-70 Jerusalem offered a Pesach lamb at the Temple (while it yet stood - and will stand again)? So, are there any of the other 612 mitzvot that you yourself or others here maybe do not even try to keep? On what basis? Is Yeshua ben David ben Yehuda the High Priest? Based upon which Law in Torah?

But, back to my post, I was asking a question, albeit, I will admit, adding a small dose of (frustrated?) attitude at the end. However, the question still stands... May a non-Torah Observant Messianic Jew debate here? If he/she is non-Torah Observant, is he/she still looked upon as Messianic Jew in this forum?

Still curious,

Ken

 

[Shimshon]

May a non-Torah Observant Messianic Jew debate here? If he/she is non-Torah Observant, is he/she still looked upon as Messianic Jew in this forum?

Still curious,

Ken

No not from my experience.

 

[Laureate]

1. ALL, while trying to piece it all together as a very complex jigsaw puzzle in which all of the pieces DO fit perfectly together even if we cannot (yet - never in this lifetime) fully and correctly assemble them all. Myself, I trust in this perfect fitting because God does not lie. So this simple trust causes me to look very closely at apparent contradictions. Others may disagree. That is their choice. I do not argue with them, only God can open their eyes.

2. No. However, since you ask about 'any', let me ask you: When was the last time that a member of the Messianic congregation living in pre-70 Jerusalem offered a Pesach lamb at the Temple (while it yet stood - and will stand again)? So, are there any of the other 612 mitzvot that you yourself or others here maybe do not even try to keep? On what basis? Is Yeshua ben David ben Yehuda the High Priest? Based upon which Law in Torah?

But, back to my post, I was asking a question, albeit, I will admit, adding a small dose of (frustrated?) attitude at the end. However, the question still stands... May a non-Torah Observant Messianic Jew debate here? If he/she is non-Torah Observant, is he/she still looked upon as Messianic Jew in this forum?

Still curious,

Ken

Love the puzzle analogy, it's the way I see it, and your sentiment describes my own, in this;

Some here such as myself hold the entire Tanach as Torah, and some go further to include the Greek texts, in these cases its a more a matter of how one conflates, and reconciles all of these pieces, so you would get a varried degree of Torah observance here, as well as interpretation.

Personally, for me Y'shua is/was the messenger of the New Covenant promise, which as you know is not entirely New, for it is clearly described in Deut. and is further depicted as being the same in content both the written and the verbal; in the same chapter it is said that the people had not been given an heart to comprehend the (written) words, so at what time does one rely on the interpretation of one Elohym says does not understand?

Remember at the base of the mount when the people were too afraid to hear the Voice, I believe this had a major effect on how things transpired, esp. the priestly covenant.

 

[mercy1061]

So... Just curious - as no one seems to have questioned this exchange between yedida and mercy and there does seem to be a [short?] break in this thread, so I hope not to hijack it here.

It is nice to hear from you again, Ken. I remember from our last conversation, that you like plain black coffee, no sugar or cream, so what I am about to tell you may not taste sweet? Oh but I agree with you; good coffee dont need anything added to hide it's natural flavor? No one questioned our debate or exchange, so you questioned Mercy exchange with Yedida. Ken, I was explaining to another poster that it is against forum rules to debate that there are contradictions inside torah. Why would anyone honor or obey torah, if they believed that there are contradictions? This would excuse their dishonest behavior of dishonoring torah.

The "Messianic Judaism faith" part I do understand from the SoP [not that I consider this to be a great thing, but it is what it is... and so I live with it without too much concern. The rules have been here longer than me ]. But the "Torah Observant forum" part is less clear to me. So then, are all of you here that consider yourselves to be of the Messianic Judaism faith Torah Observant??? Just curious what the deal is here, as I have Jewish [halachically Jewish by natural birth - of both orthodox and secular families] friends who genuinely trust in Yeshua as their Savior and diligently serve Him [and have suffered the family consequences], but who would not at all consider themselves as "Torah Observant" - would they be allowed to debate here [mercy??]???

You must at least agree that there are no contradictions in torah, if not, there will be no basis or foundation for our debate. You must also agree that the torah is a "guide" for your life. Like any great organized sport, the players must submit to the rules in order to compete. It is like competing in the NBA playoffs, and the players say, "We dont want to score points with a basketball, we want to score points with a football". The referee reminds the players, you must obey the rules, if you wish to continue in this competition for a NBA championship title. If you do not adhere to the rules, you will be disqualified from this competition.

Yeah, I am annoyed... To be perfectly blunt, some of you here should spend more time reading, chewing, swallowing, and digesting Scripture and less time... Ah.... Sorry....

Ken

Ken, it is always a pleasure discussing with you. What is the foundation for a tent made outside in the wilderness? Pharisee Shaul was a tentmaker; the torah is my foundation.

1 Cor 3
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Yeshua the Messiah.

 

[mercy1061]

1. ALL, while trying to piece it all together as a very complex jigsaw puzzle in which all of the pieces DO fit perfectly together even if we cannot (yet - never in this lifetime) fully and correctly assemble them all.

Like any complex puzzle, it may take a little time to put all the pieces together. As an engineer, I am sure you aware Ken, we must try to put the pieces together. How do you know that the pieces fit together unless, all the pieces at one time, were all together. It may help to view the flower pot, before the clay pot is broken into pieces. The potter may take the same clay and remold the clay into a new clay pot. Should not the flower be placed into a clay pot with good soil to decorate the house?

Myself, I trust in this perfect fitting because God does not lie. So this simple trust causes me to look very closely at apparent contradictions. Others may disagree. That is their choice. I do not argue with them, only God can open their eyes.

The gentiles destroyed the temple; Yeshua promised to rebuild the temple in three days. Solomon (David's son) built the first temple.

2. No. However, since you ask about 'any', let me ask you: When was the last time that a member of the Messianic congregation living in pre-70 Jerusalem offered a Pesach lamb at the Temple (while it yet stood - and will stand again)? So, are there any of the other 612 mitzvot that you yourself or others here maybe do not even try to keep? On what basis? Is Yeshua ben David ben Yehuda the High Priest? Based upon which Law in Torah?

When the ancient jews received the law at that holy mountain, there was no temple. There was no temple built in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuternomy; so why do some claim they need a temple to honor torah? They did build altars and there were tentmakers.

Abel built an altar,
Noah built an altar,
Abram built an altar,

Heb 13
10 We have an altar from which those who serve in the Tent are not permitted to eat.

But, back to my post, I was asking a question, albeit, I will admit, adding a small dose of (frustrated?) attitude at the end. However, the question still stands... May a non-Torah Observant Messianic Jew debate here? If he/she is non-Torah Observant, is he/she still looked upon as Messianic Jew in this forum?

Still curious,

Ken

I dont want you to be disqualified from the great olympic race, Ken.

 

[Avodat]

1. ALL, while trying to piece it all together as a very complex jigsaw puzzle in which all of the pieces DO fit perfectly together even if we cannot (yet - never in this lifetime) fully and correctly assemble them all. Myself, I trust in this perfect fitting because God does not lie. So this simple trust causes me to look very closely at apparent contradictions. Others may disagree. That is their choice. I do not argue with them, only God can open their eyes.

2. No. However, since you ask about 'any', let me ask you: When was the last time that a member of the Messianic congregation living in pre-70 Jerusalem offered a Pesach lamb at the Temple (while it yet stood - and will stand again)? So, are there any of the other 612 mitzvot that you yourself or others here maybe do not even try to keep? On what basis? Is Yeshua ben David ben Yehuda the High Priest? Based upon which Law in Torah?

But, back to my post, I was asking a question, albeit, I will admit, adding a small dose of (frustrated?) attitude at the end. However, the question still stands... May a non-Torah Observant Messianic Jew debate here? If he/she is non-Torah Observant, is he/she still looked upon as Messianic Jew in this forum?

Still curious,

Ken

Given that we are in staff lock down position with an Emergency Protocol imposed you would be better off asking this question of the Site Manager, Edial, (hope I've got his title right, now - please do not refer to him as a Moderator!!). If you go to the EP sticky you'll be able to PM the man who is overseeing this long period of oversight, from his notice, there.

 

[Laureate]

Right on Mercy! That‘s one reason why I love the Torah so much, it's our rule book, and we who play by the rules hold ourselves accountable to the same.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Ken, it is always a pleasure discussing with you.

Awww mercy. I'm sure that the pleasure would run both ways, IF we had EVER discussed anything. Plleeeaaasssseeee, don't ever confuse your strange ramblings with anything even resembling a discussion . To be perfectly honest, at times I have had to wonder if maybe for some reason unknown to me you're just deliberately hijacking conversations. I hope that it's not true...​

I dont want you to be disqualified from the great olympic race, Ken.

Mercy, I do hope that you're being sincere here, but in any case, let me allow you to rest your conscience. As it is written:

And it matters very little to me how I am evaluated by you or by any human court; in fact, I don’t even evaluate myself. I am not aware of anything against me, but this does not make me innocent. The one who is evaluating me is the Lord. 1 Cor 4:3-4 CJB​

And, mercy, I do not mean that lightly. Get over yourself, please.

May the Lord bless you.

Ken

 

[kcmonseysr]

Given that we are in staff lock down position with an Emergency Protocol imposed you would be better off asking this question of the Site Manager, Edial, (hope I've got his title right, now - please do not refer to him as a Moderator!!). If you go to the EP sticky you'll be able to PM the man who is overseeing this long period of oversight, from his notice, there.

Thanks for the suggestion, Avodart. But I'll pass. I think that my question has been answered. I could only wish that, for the sake of honesty towards any casual visitors, that the title of this part of the Christian Forum would be re-named "Torah Observant Messianic Judaism" - so that the separation promoted here would be clear to all up front and not behind the scenes.

Just a final observation, and then my exit: Please beware. Reverse Replacement "Theology" is just as dangerous as its twin, Replacement "Theology".

More than enough said.

Blessings,

Ken

 

[mercy1061]

Awww mercy. I'm sure that the pleasure would run both ways, IF we had EVER discussed anything. Plleeeaaasssseeee, don't ever confuse your strange ramblings with anything even resembling a discussion . To be perfectly honest, at times I have had to wonder if maybe for some reason unknown to me you're just deliberately hijacking conversations. I hope that it's not true...
​

Mercy, I do hope that you're being sincere here, but in any case, let me allow you to rest your conscience. As it is written:

And it matters very little to me how I am evaluated by you or by any human court; in fact, I don’t even evaluate myself. I am not aware of anything against me, but this does not make me innocent. The one who is evaluating me is the Lord. 1 Cor 4:3-4 CJB
​

And, mercy, I do not mean that lightly. Get over yourself, please.

May the Lord bless you.

Ken

Yet, he was still evaluated by a Roman court as being not guilty. Pharisee Shaul played by the torah rules, he appealed to Ceasar.

 

[ContraMundum]

1. ALL, while trying to piece it all together as a very complex jigsaw puzzle in which all of the pieces DO fit perfectly together even if we cannot (yet - never in this lifetime) fully and correctly assemble them all. Myself, I trust in this perfect fitting because God does not lie. So this simple trust causes me to look very closely at apparent contradictions. Others may disagree. That is their choice. I do not argue with them, only God can open their eyes.

2. No. However, since you ask about 'any', let me ask you: When was the last time that a member of the Messianic congregation living in pre-70 Jerusalem offered a Pesach lamb at the Temple (while it yet stood - and will stand again)? So, are there any of the other 612 mitzvot that you yourself or others here maybe do not even try to keep? On what basis? Is Yeshua ben David ben Yehuda the High Priest? Based upon which Law in Torah?

Brother, I think people over-do the whole Torah observance thing on this forum.

It's really not that complicated. Keep the laws that apply to you. I don't know what that number is, but I know pretty much which ones apply to me personally, and I do them as much as I can manage.

Sure, I lay tefillin, have a tallit katan under my shirt most days, keep kosher and all that stuff, but that's my personal conviction due to my understanding of how Jews are to live in this present age- according to their personal convictions. However, I don't apply my convictions as law for any other believer- Jew or Gentile. One must inform and follow his own conscience before God. I think that's what Paul was getting at in Romans 14 etc. (I call that the "forgotten chapter" of MJism)

But, back to my post, I was asking a question, albeit, I will admit, adding a small dose of (frustrated?) attitude at the end. However, the question still stands... May a non-Torah Observant Messianic Jew debate here? If he/she is non-Torah Observant, is he/she still looked upon as Messianic Jew in this forum?

Still curious,

Ken

I think anyone who is a Jew by birth who believes in Jesus as Messiah and Lord is a Messianic Jew. But that's just my opinion (and pretty much the whole of the planet agrees).

 

[mercy1061]

Thanks for the suggestion, Avodart. But I'll pass. I think that my question has been answered. I could only wish that, for the sake of honesty towards any casual visitors, that the title of this part of the Christian Forum would be re-named "Torah Observant Messianic Judaism" - so that the separation promoted here would be clear to all up front and not behind the scenes.

Just a final observation, and then my exit: Please beware. Reverse Replacement "Theology" is just as dangerous as its twin, Replacement "Theology".

More than enough said.

Blessings,

Ken

Or they could adhere to the rules before posting; teaching or debating that torah has contradictions can never be tolerated.