Help me understand this

[Rachel Rachel]

I hope Rachel Rachel is close to understanding her question in the OP - I'm getting quite lost, now, on this thread!

I'm getting there.
And I have to say the thing that helped me most was having it pointed out to me that the 10 Commandments were made separate by the LORD. He put the 10 written on stone in the Ark of the Covenant and the others written in the book or on parchment, were placed beside or in the side of the Ark.

This makes it clear to me that when Yeshua said to keep his commandments, he was necessarily referring to all Mosaic Law or the 613.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I don't think one can be sure when the entirety of the Torah was written. The terms are very vague in the Bible itself.

 

[mercy1061]

I'm getting there.
And I have to say the thing that helped me most was having it pointed out to me that the 10 Commandments were made separate by the LORD. He put the 10 written on stone in the Ark of the Covenant and the others written in the book or on parchment, were placed beside or in the side of the Ark.

This makes it clear to me that when Yeshua said to keep his commandments, he was necessarily referring to all Mosaic Law or the 613.

I thought your question involved Pharisee Shaul saying "dead to the law" in his letter to the Romans and Galatians? "Mercy" and Ken got into a debate in hope to answer your question; Avodat got lost and needed a map.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I thought your question involved Pharisee Shaul saying "dead to the law" in his letter to the Romans and Galatians? "Mercy" and Ken got into a debate in hope to answer your question; Avodat got lost and needed a map.

Well, it seems to me that if the 10 Commandments were put in the ark of the covenant and the rest weren't, that pretty much answers my question....or at least gets me started in the right direction. It confirms my thought that the 10 are eternal, and the rest were intended for the Hebrews and Gentiles living with them.
It still doesn't explain to me why Paul seemingly contradicts Yeshua Messiah on other things. I may never understand that.

 

[Avodat]

Well, it seems to me that if the 10 Commandments were put in the ark of the covenant and the rest weren't, that pretty much answers my question....or at least gets me started in the right direction. It confirms my thought that the 10 are eternal, and the rest were intended for the Hebrews and Gentiles living with them.
It still doesn't explain to me why Paul seemingly contradicts Yeshua Messiah on other things. I may never understand that.

It is not that easy and Paul does not contradict Yeshua, if we read our Bibles correctly.

We had a very long debate on this issue of Law vs Commandments not so long ago*. G_d says that he wrote the Law on the tablets, as well as the 'commandments' - using both sides of each tablet. Deuteronomy says Moses wrote the second set - that may dictate which set went in (or on) the Ark. Exodus chapters 20, 24, 30, 34 and Deuteronomy chapters 4 and 5 need to be studied carefully, using the Tanach; you will see a very different picture emerge than most people think to be the case in relation to not just what was written, but also to who wrote which set of laws / commandments and what was actually reported to the people, by Moses, as being G_d's words!!!!

*http://www.christianforums.com/t7785624-43/#post64845351 (from page #428 forward)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well, it seems to me that if the 10 Commandments were put in the ark of the covenant and the rest weren't, that pretty much answers my question....or at least gets me started in the right direction. It confirms my thought that the 10 are eternal, and the rest were intended for the Hebrews and Gentiles living with them.
It still doesn't explain to me why Paul seemingly contradicts Yeshua Messiah on other things. I may never understand that.

I never once thought Paul ever contradicted Yeshua Messiah since Yeshua Messiah instructed Paul, as Yeshua Messiah instructs others who are His.
It was many years later, after devouring all of Scripture several many times devotedly for years,
that I first saw someone or some groups 'claim' that Paul contradicts or was otherwise not in line with Yeshua Messiah,
but they never once made nor can they make a valid claim.
It was 2 or 3 more decades before Yhwh taught me that all those who reject Paul also end up rejecting Yeshua Messiah, just as it is written.

Shalom to all who love truth, who are set apart by Yhwh's Word, in Yeshua Messiah.

 

[com7fy8]

This is something I've been struggling with for a while and I've even been having a related discussion on another forum.
I don't know how to deal with it without risking huge disrespect of Paul.

Well . . . if Paul is right, then you need to have "huge disrespect" for how you have been misunderstanding him.

So, yes Jesus says He came to fulfill the law.

What I consider is, yes the Law is our schoolmaster. And its purpose is to bring us to Jesus, Paul makes clear > "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24) Once the law has done its job, it is fulfilled. Jesus now does all that the law cannot do.

So, when you read this, please pay attention to the purpose, that Paul gives, that the "schoolmaster" serves the purpose of bringing us to Christ. Once we have been brought to Messiah, now we have Jesus to take over with better than what the Law can do. So, He is fulfilling the Law, by taking us on from there.

And do you know that it says Jesus "broke the Sabbath"? John 5:18. He told that healed guy to pick up and carry his bed. That was doing work, on the Sabbath. He could have left the bed until another day and come back for it.

So, you might consider how much Jesus honors Paul. Paul was a Jew. And God's grace in Paul took care of him, very well > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15. God's grace is the effect of God's own love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) changing us to be in the image of Jesus and having us sharing with and relating with our Father as Jesus in us has us lovingly obeying our Father while also loving any and all people like Jesus in us does. This Jesus in us is the same in both Jews and Gentiles!!!!

So, I can't tell you that Jews have any real difference from Gentiles > I mean Jews who have Jesus living in us, like Paul did > Galatians 2:20. He was an example for Gentiles, though he was a Jew > 1 Corinthians 11:1. So, I would say that whatever may be a difference does not make much difference . . . not for us Jews and Gentiles in Christ > as Peter a Jew said > Acts 15:9.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I never once thought Paul ever contradicted Yeshua Messiah since Yeshua Messiah instructed Paul, as Yeshua Messiah instructs others who are His.
It was many years later, after devouring all of Scripture several many times devotedly for years,
that I first saw someone or some groups 'claim' that Paul contradicts or was otherwise not in line with Yeshua Messiah,
but they never once made nor can they make a valid claim.

I don't know that Paul contradicted Yeshua, but it certainly seems so in a couple of instances, at least.
I allow that it could be poor translation, deliberate mistranslation in some instances, or my misunderstanding. I pray every day for clarification.

It was 2 or 3 more decades before Yhwh taught me that all those who reject Paul also Yend up rejecting Yeshua Messiah, just as it is written.

YHVH never showed you that.

Shalom to all who love truth, who are set apart by Yhwh's Word, in Yeshua Messiah.

Shalom to you!!

 

[mercy1061]

Well, it seems to me that if the 10 Commandments were put in the ark of the covenant and the rest weren't, that pretty much answers my question....or at least gets me started in the right direction. It confirms my thought that the 10 are eternal, and the rest were intended for the Hebrews and Gentiles living with them.
It still doesn't explain to me why Paul seemingly contradicts Yeshua Messiah on other things. I may never understand that.

There are no contradicions. Did you know Noah's ark looked like a coffin? Non-living things were placed inside the ark of the covenant.

 

[mercy1061]

Well . . . if Paul is right, then you need to have "huge disrespect" for how you have been misunderstanding him.

So, yes Jesus says He came to fulfill the law.

What I consider is, yes the Law is our schoolmaster. And its purpose is to bring us to Jesus, Paul makes clear > "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24) Once the law has done its job, it is fulfilled. Jesus now does all that the law cannot do.

So, when you read this, please pay attention to the purpose, that Paul gives, that the "schoolmaster" serves the purpose of bringing us to Christ. Once we have been brought to Messiah, now we have Jesus to take over with better than what the Law can do. So, He is fulfilling the Law, by taking us on from there.

And do you know that it says Jesus "broke the Sabbath"? John 5:18. He told that healed guy to pick up and carry his bed. That was doing work, on the Sabbath. He could have left the bed until another day and come back for it.

So, you might consider how much Jesus honors Paul. Paul was a Jew. And God's grace in Paul took care of him, very well > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15. God's grace is the effect of God's own love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) changing us to be in the image of Jesus and having us sharing with and relating with our Father as Jesus in us has us lovingly obeying our Father while also loving any and all people like Jesus in us does. This Jesus in us is the same in both Jews and Gentiles!!!!

So, I can't tell you that Jews have any real difference from Gentiles > I mean Jews who have Jesus living in us, like Paul did > Galatians 2:20. He was an example for Gentiles, though he was a Jew > 1 Corinthians 11:1. So, I would say that whatever may be a difference does not make much difference . . . not for us Jews and Gentiles in Christ > as Peter a Jew said > Acts 15:9.

It never says that Yeshua broke the Sabbath; yet another excuse, why people dishonor Sabbath. You do know that in the beginning G-d did not rest until all of his work was done? Much in the same way, no man should rest until all of his work is done, do you want your Creator to find you with your work undone and resting at the same time?

John 5
17 But he answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I too am working.”

Now if the Father has been working until now, how does his Son break Sabbath, when the Son does what he sees his Father doing? How can you claim to enter his rest if you fail to honor Sabbath? How can you WALK by faith, if you are sick, crippled or lame?

Heb 4
Therefore, let us be terrified of the possibility that, even though the promise of entering his rest remains, any one of you might be judged to have fallen short of it; 2 for Good News has also been proclaimed to us, just as it was to them. But the message they heard didn’t do them any good, because those who heard it did not combine it with trust. 3 For it is we who have trusted who enter the rest.
It is just as he said,
“And in my anger, I swore
that they would not enter my rest.”[a]

He swore this even though his works have been in existence since the founding of the universe. 4 For there is a place where it is said, concerning the seventh day,
“And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”[b]

5 And once more, our present text says,
“They will not enter my rest.”[c]

6 Therefore, since it still remains for some to enter it, and those who received the Good News earlier did not enter, 7 he again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David, so long afterwards, in the text already given,
“Today, if you hear God’s voice, don’t harden your hearts.”[d]

8 For if Y’hoshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later of another “day.”
9 So there remains a Shabbat-keeping for God’s people.

 

[yonah_mishael]

There are no contradicions. Did you know Noah's ark looked like a coffin? Non-living things were placed inside the ark of the covenant.

The claim that there are no contradictions in the Bible is an inference from the claim that God inspired the Bible.

(1) Things inspired by God do not contain contradictions.
(2) The Bible is inspired by God.
∴ (3) The Bible does not contain contradictions.
​

[The logical form of this argument is essentially modus ponens, and it is a valid argument form. If the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true.]

Because you adhere to this logic, even if an obvious contradiction is brought up, you will fail to recognize it. Your conviction (your adherence to the premises of this argument — especially (2), that God inspired the Bible) is more important than what is clear or obvious to those who do not have this same conviction.

I’m not saying that there are contradictions between Jesus and Paul (that is, Yeshua and Shaul). What I am saying, though, is that if the Bible contains contradictions (and many people lay out what they think are contradictions in the Bible), you will be unable to honestly evaluate them because of your commitment to this principle of faith. Faith overcomes reason when the two are both given the same weight in terms of our methodoly.

By the way, if you substitute the Book of Mormon for the Bible in the above equation, you see why Mormons cannot recognize contradictions that exist within the Book of Mormon or between it and the Bible. You can also see by using the Qur’an why Muslims cannot see problems in the Qur’an. It is consistently the case that those who do not have this faith commitment (that is, they do not believe the above syllogism) do indeed find contradictions in the holy books of every faith.

Regards,
YM

 

[mercy1061]

The claim that there are no contradictions in the Bible is an inference from the claim that God inspired the Bible.

(1) The Bible is inspired by God.
(2) Things inspired by God do not contain contradictions.
∴ (3) The Bible does not contain contradictions.
​

Because you adhere to this logic, even if an obvious contradiction is brought up, you will fail to recognize it. Your conviction is more important than what is clear.

I’m not saying that there are contradictions between Jesus and Paul (that is, Yeshua and Shaul). What I am saying, though, is that if the Bible contains contradictions (and many people lay out what they think are contradictions in the Bible), you will be unable to honestly evaluate them because of your commitment to this principle of faith. Faith overcomes reason when the two are both given the same weight in terms of our methodoly.

By the way, if you substitute the Book of Mormon for the Bible in the above equation, you see why Mormons cannot recognize contradictions that exist within the Book of Mormon or between it and the Bible. You can also see by using the Qur’an why Muslims cannot see problems in the Qur’an. It is consistently the case that those who do not have this faith commitment (that is, they do not believe the above syllogism) do indeed find contradictions in the holy books of every faith.

Regards,
YM

Will you adress my comment concerning the ark? You know many people claim contradiction, and they can not prove their claims, therefore their claims are dismissed. The pharisees did not wish to answer certain questions from Yeshua, just like many ignore my questions, either they do not know the answer (do not wish to admit it) or they know the answer may lead them to the truth. I do not study the book of mormon or the qur'an; they were published many years after the torah. The torah is my guide, if you do not agree with the torah because you read contradictions, then you are in the wrong discussion forum. I seek truth, not error, truth leads to further truth; error does not lead to truth. If I build David's tent, like Pharisee Shaul who was a tentmaker, I must understand that Yeshua has already laid the foundation. What is the foundation for a tent made outside in the wilderness?

 

[yonah_mishael]

Will you adress my comment concerning the ark? You know many people claim contradiction, and they can not prove their claims, therefore their claims are dismissed. The pharisees did not wish to answer certain questions from Yeshua, just like many ignore my questions, either they do not know the answer (do not wish to admit it) or they know the answer may lead them to the truth. I do not study the book of mormon or the qur'an; they were published many years after the torah. The torah is my guide, if you do not agree with the torah because you read contradictions, then you are in the wrong discussion forum. I seek truth, not error, truth leads to further truth; error does not lead to truth.

I cannot argue on this forum that the Bible has contradictions. However, if you should like to discuss this in private, I can demonstrate that it does. However, again, I would not expect you to accept that what I see as an obvious contradiction is a contradiction in reality - and you would do whatever is in your means to explain it away and deny that it is true.

 

[mercy1061]

I cannot argue on this forum that the Bible has contradictions. However, if you should like to discuss this in private, I can demonstrate that it does. However, again, I would not expect you to accept that what I see as an obvious contradiction is a contradiction in reality - and you would do whatever is in your means to explain it away and deny that it is true.

Again, you avoid my questions. You do not know how I would answer you, because you do not know me. I do not teach the Word of G-d in secret. The rules are in place for a reason, maybe your predecessors have already failed to disprove the torah? You are on a torah observant forum, claiming contradictions; portaying a "faith: judaism" icon? Are you sure you are not contradicting yourself? You may not have the proper equipment to argue with me; like Goliath did not have the right weapons to argue with David. Goliath was an experienced warrior probably equipped with both sword and armor. David fought Goliath (in public view) with a "stone" that caused his enemy to stumble. In other words, it is against the forum rules to argue against the torah; you must debate in favor of torah.

1 Peter 2

7 Now to you who keep trusting, he is precious. But to those who are not trusting, “The very stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone”;[c]8 also he is a stone that will make people stumble, a rock over which they will trip.[d]

 

[yedida]

Mercy, Yonah has already told you that he cannot debate with you in this forum, yet you continue to bait him. That is against forum rules too.
PM Yonah and he will show you the contradictions. Or just pick up a book by Bart Ehrmann, he can show you the contradictions as well. Yonah is correct, there are contradictions in the Bible. I'm a believer, but not a blind one.

 

[yedida]

It is not that easy and Paul does not contradict Yeshua, if we read our Bibles correctly.

We had a very long debate on this issue of Law vs Commandments not so long ago*. G_d says that he wrote the Law on the tablets, as well as the 'commandments' - using both sides of each tablet. Deuteronomy says Moses wrote the second set - that may dictate which set went in (or on) the Ark. Exodus chapters 20, 24, 30, 34 and Deuteronomy chapters 4 and 5 need to be studied carefully, using the Tanach; you will see a very different picture emerge than most people think to be the case in relation to not just what was written, but also to who wrote which set of laws / commandments and what was actually reported to the people, by Moses, as being G_d's words!!!!

*http://www.christianforums.com/t7785624-43/#post64845351 (from page #428 forward)

And it would be a very good thing to read those chapters out of a Tanach rather than a christian bible, imo.

 

[yedida]

Well . . . if Paul is right, then you need to have "huge disrespect" for how you have been misunderstanding him.

So, yes Jesus says He came to fulfill the law.

What I consider is, yes the Law is our schoolmaster. And its purpose is to bring us to Jesus, Paul makes clear > "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24) Once the law has done its job, it is fulfilled. Jesus now does all that the law cannot do.

So, when you read this, please pay attention to the purpose, that Paul gives, that the "schoolmaster" serves the purpose of bringing us to Christ. Once we have been brought to Messiah, now we have Jesus to take over with better than what the Law can do. So, He is fulfilling the Law, by taking us on from there.

And do you know that it says Jesus "broke the Sabbath"? John 5:18. He told that healed guy to pick up and carry his bed. That was doing work, on the Sabbath. He could have left the bed until another day and come back for it.

So, you might consider how much Jesus honors Paul. Paul was a Jew. And God's grace in Paul took care of him, very well > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15. God's grace is the effect of God's own love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) changing us to be in the image of Jesus and having us sharing with and relating with our Father as Jesus in us has us lovingly obeying our Father while also loving any and all people like Jesus in us does. This Jesus in us is the same in both Jews and Gentiles!!!!

So, I can't tell you that Jews have any real difference from Gentiles > I mean Jews who have Jesus living in us, like Paul did > Galatians 2:20. He was an example for Gentiles, though he was a Jew > 1 Corinthians 11:1. So, I would say that whatever may be a difference does not make much difference . . . not for us Jews and Gentiles in Christ > as Peter a Jew said > Acts 15:9.

Have you read our SoP? You are not to be teaching or debating in this forum if you are not of the Messianic Judiasm faith. Please read it and the Poll before posting further. Thank you.

 

[mercy1061]

Mercy, Yonah has already told you that he cannot debate with you in this forum, yet you continue to bait him. That is against forum rules too.
PM Yonah and he will show you the contradictions. Or just pick up a book by Bart Ehrmann, he can show you the contradictions as well. Yonah is correct, there are contradictions in the Bible. I'm a believer, but not a blind one.

I was not baiting him, I only asked him questions, he refused to answer my questions, he also told me how I would answer his questions, so I reminded him that this is a torah observant forum as you already know. I hear that you are not a blind believer; I have perfect vision, according to my optometrist.

 

[yedida]

I cannot argue on this forum that the Bible has contradictions. However, if you should like to discuss this in private, I can demonstrate that it does. However, again, I would not expect you to accept that what I see as an obvious contradiction is a contradiction in reality - and you would do whatever is in your means to explain it away and deny that it is true.

check your reps.

 

[Avodat]

And it would be a very good thing to read those chapters out of a Tanach rather than a christian bible, imo.

That is essential, as I said.