Help me understand this

[mercy1061]

Whatever 'terms' it is, is a function of your choice. At my age everything is humorous, even M.D.S.. Infusions suck. Nevertheless, give it the light touch.

Problem seems to be that a bunch of folks here got squirreled and started Squawking 7777 and want to send an armed intercept.
Copy.

What does pre Pauline mean?

 

[aniello]

What does pre Pauline mean?

pre = before
Pauline = refers to Paul

Personal Jewish/Native American status comment in reference to evidential material, soteriologically.

 

[mercy1061]

I don't think people should speak about things that they are ignorant of. However, it happens all the time - and this forum is full of it.

Maybe you don't know what you think you know, instead you should carefully consider what you think you know and stop telling others what you think they know. Trust me, you don't know what and who I know or how I think, you ONLY know who you know, and what you think you know.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Maybe you don't know what you think you know, instead you should carefully consider what you think you know and stop telling others what you think they know. Trust me, you don't know what and who I know or how I think, you ONLY know who you know, and what you think you know.

Oh, quit projecting your limitations on me.

 

[Laureate]

I have no problem with anyone keeping cultural customs and traditions of Judaism. I myself have done so many times.
I just differ with making traditions equal to law. As though keeping rabbinic traditions were keeping the law.
But as for Paul, He was against Judaizers.

Try reading the verse you quoted Paul on again, and you will see he was not against promoting Judaism, he was against hypocrisy, asking Peter why would you tell someone to do something you yourself are not doing?

 

[Laureate]

Here it is.....

Ga 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews <2450>?

 

[JohnC2]

This is something I've been struggling with for a while and I've even been having a related discussion on another forum.
I don't know how to deal with it without risking huge disrespect of Paul.

Here's my problem.....

Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Notice how in 18 - it points towards the Torah being Prophetic... "Till all is FULFILLED" - this is a prophetic statement..... Every single ordinance and command has A PURPOSE.... My firm belief is that we have not encountered the REASON each one of these has been issued yet.... and that's why some ordinances still don't really make sense....

Think of how many plagues and diseases were STOPPED when we went back to God's law.... For example... Look at modern food safety and preparation laws... They mirror Torah for Ceremonial washing, ceremonial food preparation, handling unclean things that fall in pots, etc....

Notice now, in 19
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven"
Notice It does not declare you will be CAST OUT of the Kingdom... It says you will be declared LEAST in the Kingdom.... that means you can still be ADMITTED to the Kingdom of Heaven as a "Lawbreaker"....

Now.. On to Paul's comments about the Law being a Tutor.....
I have kids.... What do you teach a 3 year old kid about Knives... DO NOT TOUCH! Why? you know EXACTLY what will happen... The kid is NOT ready - and the kid may kill themself or end up in the hospital.....

Now... as the kid starts to get older - you start TEACHING them how to use knives.... There will be some "Accidents" - but they happen in a controlled environment.... Finally - when the kid is grown - THEY can use the knives on their own....

Now... Think about food purity.... People were NOT ready to understand food purity.... so God gave the Israelites a set of rules that would greatly reduce trouble.... The laws Are still TRUE.. If you follow them - YOU WILL LIVE.... but there was no explanation of the what's and why's... Man wasn't ready.... "Go ahead and eat anything" resulted in CALAMITY among the Gentiles - INCLUDING CHRISTIANS - with all sorts of issues with food poisoning, blood diseases, plagues, and parasites.... and BECAUSE of following God's law - those things did NOT happen among the Jews like they did among the Gentiles...

thanks...

 

[Hoshiyya]

People were NOT ready to understand food purity.... so God gave the Israelites a set of rules that would greatly reduce trouble.... The laws Are still TRUE.. If you follow them - YOU WILL LIVE.... but there was no explanation of the what's and why's... Man wasn't ready.... "Go ahead and eat anything" resulted in CALAMITY among the Gentiles - INCLUDING CHRISTIANS - with all sorts of issues with food poisoning, blood diseases, plagues, and parasites.... and BECAUSE of following God's law - those things did NOT happen among the Jews like they did among the Gentiles...

thanks...

I tend to think people in the past were smarter, better, more dignified, than people in the present - the scriptures show that things get WORSE with time, and are at their worst just before the return of Meshiach, and that fits with what I see around me.

If any people is going to get a simplified message, it is us, not the ancients, who were many levels above us.

It is classical, typical, standard Western/Humanist/Christian propaganda that things all get better with time. The only thing that is really improving is technology, and certain things even indicate that there may have been more advanced technology in the past - for example, the pyramids are the result of highly advanced technology.


John C said:

"there was no explanation of the what's and why's"

Actually, each and every mitzva was explained in detail in the Oral Tradition. The Jews never had the mystified, alienated view of the scriptures that the Protestants had/have.

 

[mercy1061]

Notice how in 18 - it points towards the Torah being Prophetic... "Till all is FULFILLED" - this is a prophetic statement..... Every single ordinance and command has A PURPOSE.... My firm belief is that we have not encountered the REASON each one of these has been issued yet.... and that's why some ordinances still don't really make sense....

Think of how many plagues and diseases were STOPPED when we went back to God's law.... For example... Look at modern food safety and preparation laws... They mirror Torah for Ceremonial washing, ceremonial food preparation, handling unclean things that fall in pots, etc....

Notice now, in 19
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven"
Notice It does not declare you will be CAST OUT of the Kingdom... It says you will be declared LEAST in the Kingdom.... that means you can still be ADMITTED to the Kingdom of Heaven as a "Lawbreaker"....

Now.. On to Paul's comments about the Law being a Tutor.....
I have kids.... What do you teach a 3 year old kid about Knives... DO NOT TOUCH! Why? you know EXACTLY what will happen... The kid is NOT ready - and the kid may kill themself or end up in the hospital.....

Now... as the kid starts to get older - you start TEACHING them how to use knives.... There will be some "Accidents" - but they happen in a controlled environment.... Finally - when the kid is grown - THEY can use the knives on their own....

Now... Think about food purity.... People were NOT ready to understand food purity.... so God gave the Israelites a set of rules that would greatly reduce trouble.... The laws Are still TRUE.. If you follow them - YOU WILL LIVE.... but there was no explanation of the what's and why's... Man wasn't ready.... "Go ahead and eat anything" resulted in CALAMITY among the Gentiles - INCLUDING CHRISTIANS - with all sorts of issues with food poisoning, blood diseases, plagues, and parasites.... and BECAUSE of following God's law - those things did NOT happen among the Jews like they did among the Gentiles...

thanks...

Matt 5
19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P&#8217;rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!


If I live in New York City, and I call you a lawbreaker while I am located in New York City, that does not mean you live or are a legal resident of NYC. That is just what the citizens of NYC call you. Yeshua makes it plain in verse 20, "unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P&#8217;rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!"; this is the requirement for entering the kingdom of heaven. Those who obey torah and teach others to do so, will be called great by those who are legal citizens in the kingdom of heaven.