Help me understand this

[HannibalFlavius]

Wait, What?

But I like cream in my coffee, should I stop using cream?

Use cream or no, O never mind.

Jewish men are all required to make a good cup of coffee according to the Torah, ''He Brews.''

If He Brews a bad cup of coffee for his wife, a divorce is Surely to come.

Why?

It would be GROUNDS for a divorce.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Wait, What?

But I like cream in my coffee, should I stop using cream?

Use cream or no, O never mind.

Jewish men are all required to make a good cup of coffee according to the Torah, ''He Brews.''

If He Brews a bad cup of coffee for his wife, a divorce is Surely to come.

Why?

It would be GROUNDS for a divorce.

Hi Hannibal

Well punned!!! lol

Ken

 

[kcmonseysr]

It is always a pleasure for mercy discussing with you, you seem like a very honest person.



You offered to have pots of coffee with another poster so that you may discuss with that poster the topic of discussion, concerning the law. This was a kind gesture on your part, so I thought it would be polite if I participated in the metaphor you used, and offered to add some cream or sugar to your hot cup of coffee? I mean does hot coffee taste like drinking "bitter waters" without added sugar or cream? You remember how Israel could not drink the "bitter waters" at Marah? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that men add cream or sugar to make their hot cup of coffee taste sweet?



Ken, if you don't want cream in your coffee, please let me know!




I mean, I thought I was speaking clearly when I asked if you would like me to add cream or sugar to your hot cup of coffee? Shall we make the dark "bitter waters" taste sweet?

Does coffee stain your teeth? If it does, you may need to "whitewash" or brush your teeth with "whitening" toothpaste (Matt 23:27). Ken, you dont want to smile with stained teeth.

Actually, mercy, good coffee is not bitter, and I do prefer mine black.

So, now that we've gotten so far away from the very serious question posted by Rachel could you pause your puns just for a question or two??? ?

• Have you contributed to answering her in any way?
  
• Did you at any time intend to contribute in any meaningful way?
  
• Was this diversion accidental or were you just so overjoyed to hear from me that you got carried away from yourself?

Just curious,

Ken

 

[mercy1061]

Actually, mercy, good coffee is not bitter, and I do prefer mine black.

So, now that we've gotten so far away from the very serious question posted by Rachel could you pause your puns just for a question or two??? ?

• Have you contributed to answering her in any way?
  
• Did you at any time intend to contribute in any meaningful way?
  
• Was this diversion accidental or were you just so overjoyed to hear from me that you got carried away from yourself?

Just curious,

Ken

Have you ignored everything I have said? Those who manipulate the law for selfish desires, Pharisee Shaul says to them, we are dead to the law. Those who use the law skillfully and lawfully, to preserve life and protect the innocent, we seek to deny ourselves, pick up our cross to follow Yeshua. If we are dead to sin , how can we live in it any longer? Those who honor the law of liberty will be blessed in everything he does.

 

[mercy1061]

Wait, What?

But I like cream in my coffee, should I stop using cream?

Use cream or no, O never mind.

Jewish men are all required to make a good cup of coffee according to the Torah, ''He Brews.''

If He Brews a bad cup of coffee for his wife, a divorce is Surely to come.

Why?

It would be GROUNDS for a divorce.

I am glad to hear that you like cream added in your hot cup of coffee. Can you please ask Ken if he would like cream or sugar added to his hot cup of coffee? I am having a difficult time communicating with him.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Have you ignored everything I have said?

P-r-e-t-t-y m-u-c-h mercy - and since no one else has chimed in, perhaps I am not alone in this? ???

When I was very young I used to actually enjoy riding on merry-go-rounds. Now that I am older: Not so much. I differentiate between speaking with someone about things that are innately difficult to understand and contain details that are hard to see but are being discussed in the light of day, and speaking about these same things with someone who adds artificial cloud cover in the form of excessive metaphors and obtuse language use - I just pray that you're not purposely blowing smoke...

Those who manipulate the law for selfish desires, Pharisee Shaul says to them, we are dead to the law.

Let me make a rash guess and a-s-s-u-m-e that when you say that "we are dead to the law" that you are here speaking plainly and that you mean we have "died to the law" in the same manner that Scripture speaks when using the phrase. So, let me plainly ask you in the hope that you will answer plainly: Do/did we (who trust in Messiah Yeshua) "die to the law" because we "manipulate(d) the law for selfish desires"? Or is what Pharisee Shaul says to us about this death of ours the correct description?

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. Rom 7:4 NASB ​

Those who use the law skillfully and lawfully, to preserve life and protect the innocent, we seek to deny ourselves, pick up our cross to follow Yeshua. If we are dead to sin , how can we live in it any longer? Those who honor the law of liberty will be blessed in everything he does.

ALL RIGHT!! We do agree here!! AMEN!!! Do you also agree that this does not mean that we will never stumble as we walk through this world?

I am glad to hear that you like cream added in your hot cup of coffee. Can you please ask Ken if he would like cream or sugar added to his hot cup of coffee? I am having a difficult time communicating with him.

Aw mercy - did you not read my answer??? Black coffee. No cream. No sugar.

Blessings,

Ken

 

[mercy1061]

P-r-e-t-t-y m-u-c-h mercy - and since no one else has chimed in, perhaps I am not alone in this? ???

I thought you are an alumni from Penn State University? What was your major? You must be extremely intelligent my friend! Surely a Penn State University graduate or degree holder can handle a little debate? I have a great deal of respect and/or honor for anyone who attend PSU, you need at least high school gpa of 4.0 to be admitted in that institution, not to mention a pretty-high-impressive SAT score.

When I was very young I used to actually enjoy riding on merry-go-rounds. Now that I am older: Not so much.

When I was very young merry-go-rounds made me dizzy; but I think the purpose of a merry-go-round is to make the child merry or happy? You don't want to be happy?

I differentiate between speaking with someone about things that are innately difficult to understand and contain details that are hard to see

Ken, do you wear glasses? I have 20-20 vision, I do not need to wear glasses. What details can you not see from my post?

but are being discussed in the light of day, and speaking about these same things with someone who adds artificial cloud cover in the form of excessive metaphors and obtuse language use - I just pray that you're not purposely blowing smoke...

Ken I dont smoke cigarettes, so I promise I am not blowing out any smoke. In regards to the cloud, I hope you are not refering to the cloud that forms on the mirror from the hot water so that my wife can not see herself when she looks at herself in the mirror. Just remember Ken, if you decide to take a hot shower, you may not be able to see an accurate image of yourself in the mirror, until after the cloud vanishes from the mirror. In the days of Noah, G-d put his rainbow in the cloud.

Let me make a rash guess and a-s-s-u-m-e that when you say that "we are dead to the law" that you are here speaking plainly and that you mean we have "died to the law" in the same manner that Scripture speaks when using the phrase. So, let me plainly ask you in the hope that you will answer plainly: Do/did we (who trust in Messiah Yeshua) "die to the law" because we "manipulate(d) the law for selfish desires"?

Some may try to trap you with the law intended to give liberty to the hearers. To those who promote sin or teach the law with selfish desires, Pharisee Shaul says to them "we are dead to the law". Pharisee Shaul seeks to live for G-d.

Gal 2
17 But if, in seeking to be declared righteous by God through our union with the Messiah, we ourselves are indeed found to be sinners, then is the Messiah an aider and abettor of sin? Heaven forbid! 18 Indeed, if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed, I really do make myself a transgressor. 19 For it was through letting the Torah speak for itself that I died to its traditional legalistic misinterpretation, so that I might live in direct relationship with God.

Or is what Pharisee Shaul says to us about this death of ours the correct description?

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. Rom 7:4 NASB
​

Gal 2 is about Pharisee Shaul being dead to legalistic misinterpretation, Romans 7 Pharisee Shaul is dealing with the law concerning marriage (wife's obligations) after death of her husband. Pharisee Shaul in Romans 7 is speaking to those who understand Torah.

Romans 7
1 Surely you know, brothers — for I am speaking to those who understand Torah — that the Torah has authority over a person only so long as he lives? 2 For example, a married woman is bound by Torah to her husband while he is alive; but if the husband dies, she is released from the part of the Torah that deals with husbands. 3 Therefore, while the husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress if she marries another man; but if the husband dies, she is free from that part of the Torah; so that if she marries another man, she is not an adulteress.
4 Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah’s body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.


So the prerequisite PSU course, for Romans 7, is honoring Torah. Does PSU offer Torah courses? Do you understand Torah? If you do not then you are not prepared to understand Romans chapter 7.

Those who use the law skillfully and lawfully, to preserve life and protect the innocent, we seek to deny ourselves, pick up our cross to follow Yeshua. If we are dead to sin , how can we live in it any longer? Those who honor the law of liberty will be blessed in everything he does.

ALL RIGHT!! We do agree here!! AMEN!!! Do you also agree that this does not mean that we will never stumble as we walk through this world?

Romans 14:21

What is good is not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Aw mercy - did you not read my answer??? Black coffee. No cream. No sugar.

Blessings,

Ken

I guess I wont add any sugar to your hot cup of coffee? Where or what is NEPA-USA? Thank you for answering my coffee question.
​

 

[kcmonseysr]

I thought you are an alumni from Penn State University? What was your major? Petroleum and Natural Gas Engineering. But I only worked as a field engineer for a few months. Long story.


You must be extremely intelligent my friend! Aw!!! I find myself driveled with your flatter!!!

Surely a Penn State University graduate or degree holder can handle a little debate? Sure. But, as I like my coffee plain so as not to hide its flavor and do use it to help stimulate my brain a bit, I like my debates to be more angled towards edification and learning - and not that you have indicated otherwise - I am not really concerned with "winning" or "loosing" a debate. I freely leave that goal with those who just like to argue for the sake of arguing. I hope that you and I agree on that point. ?


I have a great deal of respect and/or honor for anyone who attend PSU, you need at least high school gpa of 4.0 to be admitted in that institution, not to mention a pretty-high-impressive SAT score. Maybe you're confusing what I would call the "working class" Penn State University in State College, PA with the Ivy League University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, PA? So, please have some mercy on me, I'm not up to the "Ivy League" types .

Ken I dont smoke cigarettes, so I promise I am not blowing out any smoke. Not all smoke comes from cigarettes and condensed steam is not smoke.

I guess I wont add any sugar to your hot cup of coffee? Where or what is NEPA-USA? NEPA is an acronym that stands for North Eastern Pennsylvania. Generally speaking, about 100 to 150 miles south of Syracuse, New York. Largest "cities" in the area would be Scranton, PA and Wilkes-Barre,PA.

Thank you for answering my coffee question. You're welcome .
[/INDENT]

I'm about to head out and have some [black] coffee with some friends that I meet with each week. So anything more will have to wait - meanwhile it would help me if you could keep in mind that you are only dealing here with a simple mind that plods slowly in straight lines and does not do so well at jumping around and trying to figure out sentences that can be read in multiple ways .

Blessings,

Ken

 

[mercy1061]

I'm about to head out and have some [black] coffee with some friends that I meet with each week. So anything more will have to wait - meanwhile it would help me if you could keep in mind that you are only dealing here with a simple mind that plods slowly in straight lines and does not do so well at jumping around and trying to figure out sentences that can be read in multiple ways .

Blessings,

Ken

Now if you have an engineer mind that plods slowly in straight lines, then we should have no problem discussing the context of gal 2 and romans 7. There is a serious danger in torah misinterpretation, to which Pharisee Shaul responds by saying we are dead to the law. Those who promote sin misinterpret the torah to enslave people. They can never properly comprehend torah because of their selfish desires. Their agenda is to promote themselves not torah. Then in romans 7, Pharisee Shaul is dealing with the dangerous misconception concerning the covenant of marriage, how the wife is called an adulterous if she remarries while her husband is alive. However if she remarries after the death of her husband, she is not called an adulterous, although her husband may have been raised to life. For this cause Pharisee Shaul gives the romans legal advice, the widows and virgins should not remarry.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Now if you have an engineer mind that plods slowly in straight lines, then we should have no problem discussing the context of gal 2 and romans 7.

This works for me, mercy, but allow me to chew even smaller bites that what you suggest here. I will try to "drive a couple of surveying stakes into one section of the ground" that you have suggested (and you have picked good starting points) with the main intention of simply trying to establish some common point and to see if we have any agreement as the lay of the land. From there, we can try to adjust and build???

There is a serious danger in torah misinterpretation, to which Pharisee Shaul responds by saying we are dead to the law.

I believe that you are referring to Gal 2:19-21?

..."For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God...
From this passage, I learn that by fulfilling Torah's requirement that I die for my sins that I am no longer subject to any future death and am therefore no longer bound (tied up, held captive) by Torah [by being threatened with death for any disobedience]. Thus, being freed, I am free to live to God. [Although I respect David Stern's translation in many facets, I here totally reject his inserting the words "…its traditional legalist interpretation…" into this passage. These words added by David are commentary, not translation.]

..."I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me...
This passage explains just how I fulfilled Torah's requirement that I die for my sins. I was literally (the "how" of this is beyond my ability to fathom, much less explain) crucified along with Messiah, and now (as Messiah rose from the dead), even though I still live in the flesh (which I struggle with), He lives in me and my life now is by faith in Him.

..."I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly..."
[all above passages in blue italics taken from Gal 2:19-21 NASB]
Thus far, I see here nothing that has cast Torah "out on its ear" (if you will). But it is telling me that I cannot gain any righteousness as a result of my following Torah. But it does not eliminate the possibility that as I further develop the relationship with Messiah that comes from His living in me, and me living by faith in Him, that I may find myself walking more perfectly in accordance with the requirements of Torah.

And this, I think, is the "tricky" part of our discussion. If I find myself walking closer to Torah requirements [of course!! it is good for me to read and attempt to understand Torah in order to know these requirements!!! - foolish, I think, those who do not read and ponder Torah] because I have my eyes on Him and am walking closer to Him who kept Torah perfectly, then this is a good thing. But if I find (fool) myself (into thinking that I am [in my heart, where it counts]) walking closer to Torah requirements because I have my eyes on Torah and am placing my steps as I walk in my flesh in this world by what I read in Torah - and therefore have of necessity taken my eyes off from Messiah, since I cannot focus on both at once, then I will stumble. I believe that this is what happened to Peter as described by Paul in those verses that immediately precede (i.e. Gal 2:11-18) this explanation.

Let me stop here in answering your questions - both to see if we have any common points thus far as well as to avoid me crossing beyond answering a short question, which I think I am allowed to do …

Blessings,

Ken

 

[mercy1061]

This works for me, mercy, but allow me to chew even smaller bites that what you suggest here.

You do know as an engineer, there are rules or laws we must follow, that also govern us. Before you can place a survey stake in the ground, I think you should first own the land or given permission to build on the land from the owner? In other words, if you don't own any land in Israel, you should not place any "survey stakes" in Israeli ground. As an engineer, you must be skilled in both mathematics and science. We must allow our thoughts to form an hypothesis or an educated guess. What is the "hypothesis" that Pharisee Shaul trying to prove or disprove? Let us remember, as you are very skilled in engineering; Pharisee Shaul is very skilled in torah. There are rules for interpeting both engineering results and torah!

I will try to "drive a couple of surveying stakes into one section of the ground" that you have suggested

A survey is a tool that engineers use to gather information? You said "survey stakes", I guess you intend on marking boundaries, yes indeed torah is full of fences, walls or boundaries.

(and you have picked good starting points) with the main intention of simply trying to establish some common point and to see if we have any agreement as the lay of the land. From there, we can try to adjust and build???

Are we building a large construction site? Let us start with something simple like making tents, Pharisee Shaul is a tentmaker. Moses never reached the promise land, so he never had an opportunity to build the temple; ancient Israel has natural boundaries (rivers, etc), she has no need for suvey stakes.

There is a serious danger in torah misinterpretation, to which Pharisee Shaul responds by saying we are dead to the law.

I believe that you are referring to Gal 2:19-21?

..."For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God...
From this passage, I learn that by fulfilling Torah's requirement that I die for my sins that I am no longer subject to any future death

You must first die; the purpose for dieing is living for G-d.

and am therefore no longer bound (tied up, held captive) by Torah [by being threatened with death for any disobedience].

If you are really dead, you can not die again; or live in sin any longer;

Thus, being freed, I am free to live to God. [Although I respect David Stern's translation in many facets, I here totally reject his inserting the words "…its traditional legalist interpretation…" into this passage. These words added by David are commentary, not translation.]

I agree with David Stern, there is a traditional legalistic interpretation, that is dangerous to those who teach torah. Remember the "people" murdered the prophets beginning with Abel.

Luke 11:51
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

..."I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me...

This passage explains just how I fulfilled Torah's requirement that I die for my sins.

Pharisee Shaul is speaking for himself, the "I" here refers to Pharisee Shaul. We know he claimed to be crucified with Christ, which we know it is not true, he is not being literal here. Yeshua was really crucified with the worst sinners, Pharisee Shaul brags that he kept the law perfectly; circumcised on the 8th day born from the tribe of Benjamin. The purpose for Pharisee Shaul using this metaphor is to illustrate how he kept the torah perfectly, yet he regards himself as the "worst sinner"; Pharisee Shaul's big secret: those who keep torah are the worst sinners.

I was literally (the "how" of this is beyond my ability to fathom, much less explain) crucified along with Messiah, and now (as Messiah rose from the dead), even though I still live in the flesh (which I struggle with), He lives in me and my life now is by faith in Him.

You can not explain it, because Pharisee Shaul is not talking about you, he is writing about himself. So let us, let Pharisee Shaul explain himself about himself.

..."I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly..."

[all above passages in blue italics taken from Gal 2:19-21 NASB]
Thus far, I see here nothing that has cast Torah "out on its ear" (if you will). But it is telling me that I cannot gain any righteousness as a result of my following Torah.

Pharisee Shaul says first "I do not nullify the grace of G-d"; what does he mean by "nullify the grace of G-d"?

But it does not eliminate the possibility that as I further develop the relationship with Messiah that comes from His living in me, and me living by faith in Him, that I may find myself walking more perfectly in accordance with the requirements of Torah.

Were you, like Pharisee Shaul, born from a tribe in Israel, circumcised on the 8th day, are you also a Pharisee properly trained in torah? However, I am aware that you have earned an enginerring degree from Penn State University, which is indeed a noteworthy honor and may help you understand torah, if you follow the rules concerning math, and engineering.

And this, I think, is the "tricky" part of our discussion.

Tricky? Not for an intelligent person like yourself with an engineering degree.

If I find myself walking closer to Torah requirements [of course!! it is good for me to read and attempt to understand Torah in order to know these requirements!!!

Yes indeed.

- foolish, I think, those who do not read and ponder Torah] because I have my eyes on Him and am walking closer to Him who kept Torah perfectly, then this is a good thing. But if I find (fool) myself (into thinking that I am [in my heart, where it counts]) walking closer to Torah requirements because I have my eyes on Torah and am placing my steps as I walk in my flesh in this world by what I read in Torah - and therefore have of necessity taken my eyes off from Messiah, since I cannot focus on both at once, then I will stumble. I believe that this is what happened to Peter as described by Paul in those verses that immediately precede (i.e. Gal 2:11-18) this explanation.

The Torah speaks about Yeshua.

John 5:39

Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;

Let me stop here in answering your questions - both to see if we have any common points thus far as well as to avoid me crossing beyond answering a short question, which I think I am allowed to do …

Blessings,

Ken

Do you wish to establish "survey stakes" in our discussion?

 

[Avodat]

I hope Rachel Rachel is close to understanding her question in the OP - I'm getting quite lost, now, on this thread!

 

[kcmonseysr]

I hope Rachel Rachel is close to understanding her question in the OP - I'm getting quite lost, now, on this thread!

I'm with you Avodat ( ) - and I can only hope that Rachel has not given up on seeking an answer to her questioning. I've done my best, and will let what I have said stand - I can only hope that I did not add to any confusion.

Blessings,

Ken

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I'm getting quite lost, now, on this thread!

Don't flatter yourself.

 

[mercy1061]

I hope Rachel Rachel is close to understanding her question in the OP - I'm getting quite lost, now, on this thread!

Do you need a map?

 

[Avodat]

Do you need a map?

Yes, please, or at least a CF satnav.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Exactly!! It's the gentiles that need to convert, not the Jews! So, yes, please, someone in the know, tell us poor gentiles, just what our roles are supposed to be in all this. I'm sick and tired of all the quibbling over it.

Exactly!!

....... with a verrrry long and big sigh .......
(sick and tired; of all society and the world and living on earth (re: "unless you hate your own life, you cannot be a disciple of yeshua") )

"in the know" : "whom the Father knows" "whom the Father has given to the Son" "no one receives anything except it is given them from heaven"

"us poor gentiles" (and Jews,btw). deceived by rabbis, phrmk, christendom, talmud, government, doctors, teachers, family, society, websites, neighborhood, tv, books, scholarship, study, i.e. all the flesh. "the flesh profits nothing"


...... "sick and tired of all the quibbling"

Yeshua says: "are you tired and worn out by religion"
"come unto me, all of you who are heavy laden"
"and i will give you rest and comfort for your soul and mind and spirit" (total, complete comfort, healing, restoration)

and Yeshua cannot lie. Yeshua heals completely when He heals someone. Yeshua sets someone completely free when He sets them free. He set me free 40 years ago, and I have never turned back, with all the troubles and tribulations and persecutions right along. He will set you free also, Yhwh willing, if you seek ABBA to do as He says (and not what man says).

Yeshua says, if you seek ABBA with ALL of your heart and soul and mind and strength, totally, honestly, completely, purely, trusting Him to set you right, then "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

 

[mercy1061]

Exactly!!

....... with a verrrry long and big sigh .......
(sick and tired; of all society and the world and living on earth (re: "unless you hate your own life, you cannot be a disciple of yeshua") )

"in the know" : "whom the Father knows" "whom the Father has given to the Son" "no one receives anything except it is given them from heaven"

"us poor gentiles" (and Jews,btw). deceived by rabbis, phrmk, christendom, talmud, government, doctors, teachers, family, society, websites, neighborhood, tv, books, scholarship, study, i.e. all the flesh. "the flesh profits nothing"


...... "sick and tired of all the quibbling"

Yeshua says: "are you tired and worn out by religion"
"come unto me, all of you who are heavy laden"
"and i will give you rest and comfort for your soul and mind and spirit" (total, complete comfort, healing, restoration)

and Yeshua cannot lie. Yeshua heals completely when He heals someone. Yeshua sets someone completely free when He sets them free. He set me free 40 years ago, and I have never turned back, with all the troubles and tribulations and persecutions right along. He will set you free also, Yhwh willing, if you seek ABBA to do as He says (and not what man says).

Yeshua says, if you seek ABBA with ALL of your heart and soul and mind and strength, totally, honestly, completely, purely, trusting Him to set you right, then "you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

So religion made the ancient jews tired and worn out?

 

[yedida]

I hope Rachel Rachel is close to understanding her question in the OP - I'm getting quite lost, now, on this thread!

Some people do manage to confuse more than they elucidate.

 

[Avodat]

Some people do manage to confuse more than they elucidate.

I had to go back to the OP to remind myself what it was she wanted to know