Help me understand this

[annier]

Not really, the oral law was based on how to keep the Torah and not trespass it. Oral law shows the way to keep from trespassing the Torah.

If you think about it, Yeshua's teachings were Oral law as he spoke about what they really meant.

and ppPlease don't use the term 'Judaizers' as it is derogatory and offensive. Sadly I think that when we see this word in the bible it is being used against Yeshua's own talmidim and family.

What? Wait, you said when it is used in the bible? We are taught about Judaizers in scripture. These are not presented as those of Jesus disciples. They are spoken of as those which oppose the ekklesia of the Lord. Am I misunderstanding you, or did you mis type?

 

[Lulav]

What? Wait, you said when it is used in the bible? We are taught about Judaizers in scripture. These are not presented as those of Jesus disciples. They are spoken of as those which oppose the ekklesia of the Lord. Am I misunderstanding you, or did you mis type?

I didn't stutter.

"We are taught about Judaizers in scripture."

Show me where

"These are not presented as those of Jesus disciples."

Once you find where you will see that is not the case.

"They are spoken of as those which oppose the ekklesia of the Lord."

Oppose? how?

 

[annier]

I didn't stutter.

"We are taught about Judaizers in scripture."

Show me where

"These are not presented as those of Jesus disciples."

Once you find where you will see that is not the case.

"They are spoken of as those which oppose the ekklesia of the Lord."

Oppose? how?

Here it is.....

Ga 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews <2450>?

2450 &#953;&#959;&#965;&#948;&#945;&#953;&#950;&#969; Ioudaizo ee-oo-dah-id&#8217;-zo

from 2453; TDNT-3:356,372; {See TDNT 336} v

AV-to live as do the Jews 1; 1

1) to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise
1a) one who observes the ritual law of the Jews

Paul, here is against Judaizing, nor did consider them to be disciples.....
" they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel,"

But your post calls them the Lord's disciples?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Here it is.....

Ga 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews <2450>?

2450 &#953;&#959;&#965;&#948;&#945;&#953;&#950;&#969; Ioudaizo ee-oo-dah-id&#8217;-zo

from 2453; TDNT-3:356,372; {See TDNT 336} v

AV-to live as do the Jews 1; 1

1) to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise
1a) one who observes the ritual law of the Jews

Paul, here is against Judaizing, nor did consider them to be
" they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel,"

But your post calls them the Lord's disciples?

What good are the words from a two faced liar, deceiver?

That's what I take from a lot of people, they present a Paul that is two faced, where I don't see Paul as two faced, I see people misunderstand what he said and did.


You present words from a man who went out of his way to prove that he himself kept all the little laws of Moses. A man who sacrificed animals long after Jesus had come and gone.


Liars were paid to lie against Paul and the disciples saying,'' This new religion, and these men are teaching people not to keep the laws of Moses.''



There MUST be some misunderstanding of what Paul taught if you think he says one thing and does another. The decision about Christians keeping every little thing Jews kept was a split decision and this debate went on for decades until it was finally addresses.



What would a Roman Pagan do if he converted to the religion of Jesus?



That's the question, wouldn't he take on the Holy days that are of the one true God?


Wouldn't this be imitating and adopting the things of God in place of the things of false Gods?


I am not understanding what your idea of conversion is, if not to convert to the customs and rituals of Jews, to imitate Jews.


There were so many Pagan Romans who died after they rejected all their ancient Pagan traditions. We are talking about actual righteous gentiles who actually converted to the customs of Jews, and they were so serious as to lose their lives in the rejection of holidays of Pagan Gods.

They were righteous gentiles in rejecting every custom and Pagan rituals of devils, and they would only be loyal to the Jewish customs of Jesus.


What kind of minister is going to tell the heathen, '' Jesus died as your Passover lamb, but to celebrate this gift is a sin?''


See, I cannot see where you are coming from at all.


Is it your idea that people should have no Sabbath, no Holy days, and no celebration of God whatsoever?


And what gets me is that you come here to say bad things about people who continually have to defend the word of God, and the ways of God, when your own type of people practice the ways of Pagan Gods, and have countless of Pagan rituals, and they get a pass. Why aren't you going out and committing yourself to change people who have adopted Pagan ways in their rejection of the ways of Jesus?


As a Gentile, I would keep the Passover and its customs and rituals in truth and in spirit as Paul said.

As a gentile, I would camp 7 days for the Holy feast that is specifically made for gentiles, and you would tell me that to do so is a sin?


Would you rather have us take on any custom and or ritual of just any Pagan devil?

Just as long as we look nothing like Jews, or have anything in common with Jews?


See, I don't understand where you are coming from.



But if it comes down to your misunderstandings of Paul, let us be assured that Paul kept all the law till he died, and so did the tens of thousands of Jews who believed in Jesus, they actually knew what they worshipped.


So what is it?

The Jews who believed kept the same religion and Paul himself kept keeping the law and defending himself from liars who said opposite of what he did.


And we gentiles convert to the same religion of the Jews, and so our instruction must be, '' To keep all the rituals and customs of any pagan devil out there, as long as it isn't the ways of Jesus and God?''


Do you see my problem?


You claim, I assume, to be a convert to Judaism, and I mean, the religion of Jesus which happens to be Judaism.

It was a legal sect of Judaism in the beginning, and everything had to be legal, and so Christianity was a sect of Judaism.


WE know that all the Jews kept the Sabbath, the Holy days, the feasts, the laws of Moses.


Is it your idea that we are supposed to convert to the belief of Jesus just as long as we continually teach the religion of Jesus to be evil?

I mean, what does conversion mean to you?

I am a gentile, and so what are my Sabbaths, what are my Holy days?

What customs would you have me imitate?

What traditions should I adopt?

I can make no sense out of the things you say.

I can't even imagine what a conversion means to you.

 

[annier]

What good are the words from a two faced liar, deceiver?

That's what I take from a lot of people, they present a Paul that is two faced, where I don't see Paul as two faced, I see people misunderstand what he said and did.


You present words from a man who went out of his way to prove that he himself kept all the little laws of Moses. A man who sacrificed animals long after Jesus had come and gone.


Liars were paid to lie against Paul and the disciples saying,'' This new religion, and these men are teaching people not to keep the laws of Moses.''



There MUST be some misunderstanding of what Paul taught if you think he says one thing and does another. The decision about Christians keeping every little thing Jews kept was a split decision and this debate went on for decades until it was finally addresses.



What would a Roman Pagan do if he converted to the religion of Jesus?



That's the question, wouldn't he take on the Holy days that are of the one true God?


Wouldn't this be imitating and adopting the things of God in place of the things of false Gods?


I am not understanding what your idea of conversion is, if not to convert to the customs and rituals of Jews, to imitate Jews.


There were so many Pagan Romans who died after they rejected all their ancient Pagan traditions. We are talking about actual righteous gentiles who actually converted to the customs of Jews, and they were so serious as to lose their lives in the rejection of holidays of Pagan Gods.

They were righteous gentiles in rejecting every custom and Pagan rituals of devils, and they would only be loyal to the Jewish customs of Jesus.


What kind of minister is going to tell the heathen, '' Jesus died as your Passover lamb, but to celebrate this gift is a sin?''


See, I cannot see where you are coming from at all.


Is it your idea that people should have no Sabbath, no Holy days, and no celebration of God whatsoever?


And what gets me is that you come here to say bad things about people who continually have to defend the word of God, and the ways of God, when your own type of people practice the ways of Pagan Gods, and have countless of Pagan rituals, and they get a pass. Why aren't you going out and committing yourself to change people who have adopted Pagan ways in their rejection of the ways of Jesus?


As a Gentile, I would keep the Passover and its customs and rituals in truth and in spirit as Paul said.

As a gentile, I would camp 7 days for the Holy feast that is specifically made for gentiles, and you would tell me that to do so is a sin?


Would you rather have us take on any custom and or ritual of just any Pagan devil?

Just as long as we look nothing like Jews, or have anything in common with Jews?


See, I don't understand where you are coming from.



But if it comes down to your misunderstandings of Paul, let us be assured that Paul kept all the law till he died, and so did the tens of thousands of Jews who believed in Jesus, they actually knew what they worshipped.


So what is it?

The Jews who believed kept the same religion and Paul himself kept keeping the law and defending himself from liars who said opposite of what he did.


And we gentiles convert to the same religion of the Jews, and so our instruction must be, '' To keep all the rituals and customs of any pagan devil out there, as long as it isn't the ways of Jesus and God?''


Do you see my problem?


You claim, I assume, to be a convert to Judaism, and I mean, the religion of Jesus which happens to be Judaism.

It was a legal sect of Judaism in the beginning, and everything had to be legal, and so Christianity was a sect of Judaism.


WE know that all the Jews kept the Sabbath, the Holy days, the feasts, the laws of Moses.


Is it your idea that we are supposed to convert to the belief of Jesus just as long as we continually teach the religion of Jesus to be evil?

I mean, what does conversion mean to you?

I am a gentile, and so what are my Sabbaths, what are my Holy days?

What customs would you have me imitate?

What traditions should I adopt?

I can make no sense out of the things you say.

I can't even imagine what a conversion means to you.

Wow, all this because I showed the scripture where Paul calls Judaizing out? Judaizers are not walking according to the truth of the Gospel. Are you putting forth the Judaizers are our Lord's disciples as well?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Wow, all this because I showed the scripture where Paul calls Judaizing out? Judaizers are not walking according to the truth of the Gospel. Are you putting forth the Judaizers are our Lord's disciples as well?

I am a Gentile, and I converted to the religion of Jesus.


I reject all the ways of other Pagan Gods.

We both know that people are going to keep a certain Sabbath, we both know that people are going to celebrate the birth of Christ.

We both know that people are going to keep the Passover as a Memorial to Jesus.


So tell me, as a gentile, what are my Sabbaths, what are my holidays, what traditions should I keep, what rituals should I keep?


We both know that people are going to have holidays, and we both know that believers in Christ are going to keep a memorial to Jesus birth, and death.


Is your instruction that I should keep the traditions of Jews, Jewish rituals, Jewish Sabbath and feasts?


If not, then please tell me what traditions and rituals I should keep.

If not, then tell me what the Sabbath is that I should keep, tell me what holy day I should keep to remember Christ in his birth and his death?

Not to mention all the other holy days.


Should I keep the Sabbath of God, should I keep the Pesach and its traditions?

Should I keep the feast of Tabernacles made for gentiles?



I am trying to figure out what you mean by adopting Jewish tradition and custom.

So tell me, as a gentile, what should my Holy days, traditions and customs be after I have converted to the Jewish Messiah of Jerusalem.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Not really, the oral law was based on how to keep the Torah and not trespass it. Oral law shows the way to keep from trespassing the Torah.

If you think about it, Yeshua's teachings were Oral law as he spoke about what they really meant.

and ppPlease don't use the term 'Judaizers' as it is derogatory and offensive. Sadly I think that when we see this word in the bible it is being used against Yeshua's own talmidim and family.

I know you've had a question about Peter and his vision in Acts and where the law was about not having social intercourse with gentiles.

You will find it in the same tractate Steve spoke about.

Here is a site where you can read it translated into English.

Babylonian Talmud Abodah Zarah

Come and Hear is an anti-Semitic website. Just thought you should know.

 

[annier]

I am a Gentile, and I converted to the religion of Jesus.


I reject all the ways of other Pagan Gods.

We both know that people are going to keep a certain Sabbath, we both know that people are going to celebrate the birth of Christ.

We both know that people are going to keep the Passover as a Memorial to Jesus.


So tell me, as a gentile, what are my Sabbaths, what are my holidays, what traditions should I keep, what rituals should I keep?


We both know that people are going to have holidays, and we both know that believers in Christ are going to keep a memorial to Jesus birth, and death.


Is your instruction that I should keep the traditions of Jews, Jewish rituals, Jewish Sabbath and feasts?


If not, then please tell me what traditions and rituals I should keep.

If not, then tell me what the Sabbath is that I should keep, tell me what holy day I should keep to remember Christ in his birth and his death?

Not to mention all the other holy days.


Should I keep the Sabbath of God, should I keep the Pesach and its traditions?

Should I keep the feast of Tabernacles made for gentiles?



I am trying to figure out what you mean by adopting Jewish tradition and custom.

So tell me, as a gentile, what should my Holy days, traditions and customs be after I have converted to the Jewish Messiah of Jerusalem.

Are you in agreement with the post that says the Judaizers are the Lord's talmudim?

 

[Frenchfrye]

This is something I've been struggling with for a while and I've even been having a related discussion on another forum.
I don't know how to deal with it without risking huge disrespect of Paul.

Here's my problem.....

Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Now after reading these words from our Messiah - and not just while he walked the earth but even after his resurrection (Revelation 22) how can we justify Paul teaching that the Law is our old schoolmaster and we're dead to the law, etc?

My understanding is that, of course, the Law can't save us - nothing but the blood of Yeshua can save us, but the LORD's Law is eternal.

Also, as I understand it, Ceremonial Law (sacrifices) is fulfilled and Civil Law was intended for Israel only.
Where am I wrong in all this?

I was always taught that when we are saved by faith and grace we keep the law as a testimony sort of thing and that it Jesus knew it wouldn't save us but we follow it because we follow Jesus whole heartedly

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Are you in agreement with the post that says the Judaizers are the Lord's talmudim?

How would it be possible for me to engage in a conversation without knowing any realistic application of what you are trying to say?


I am again, trying to understand what you mean, realistically.


How does what you say, apply to me?


Its not very many words to put down.

Something like this,'' Yes Hannibal, you should keep the Jewish Pesach and its traditions that teach of a Jewish Messiah dying for your sins. You should watch and know the days and its customs as to know Christ.

Or.

No Hannibal, the Jewish feast days are ended, and the ways of the king of Jerusalem are evil, now we must take on the ways of Tammuz, and all his customs and rituals that teach him being the first resurrected Messiah.



Exactly what do you mean when you say we shouldn't adopt Jewish customs?

Should we have no Sabbath, no feast days, no holidays, no customs, no rituals.?


By God, believe in what you say, and put it out there.


I am a gentile, what should my Sabbaths, traditions, rituals, and holidays, customs be, other than adopting the Jewish customs that teach of the JEWish Messiah?


Are the customs and rituals and traditions so evil that Jesus walked in them by example so nobody else should?


What is a gentile to do after he has rejected the ways of Pagan Gods and converted to the ways of a Jewish Messiah?

It aint that hard.

Give us an example of the things you would have us do, if they are not the things of Christ?

 

[annier]

How would it be possible for me to engage in a conversation without knowing any realistic application of what you are trying to say?

I simply gave scripture HF. If that is not enough to get an answer, so be it.

I am again, trying to understand what you mean, realistically.


How does what you say, apply to me?

Again, I merely quoted what Paul said in the scriptures. Maybe the problem here is not understanding I quoted Paul and what he said.

Its not very many words to put down.

Something like this,'' Yes Hannibal, you should keep the Jewish Pesach and its traditions that teach of a Jewish Messiah dying for your sins. You should watch and know the days and its customs as to know Christ.

Or.

No Hannibal, the Jewish feast days are ended, and the ways of the king of Jerusalem are evil, now we must take on the ways of Tammuz, and all his customs and rituals that teach him being the first resurrected Messiah.



Exactly what do you mean when you say we shouldn't adopt Jewish customs?

Should we have no Sabbath, no feast days, no holidays, no customs, no rituals.?


By God, believe in what you say, and put it out there.


I am a gentile, what should my Sabbaths, traditions, rituals, and holidays, customs be, other than adopting the Jewish customs that teach of the JEWish Messiah?


Are the customs and rituals and traditions so evil that Jesus walked in them by example so nobody else should?


What is a gentile to do after he has rejected the ways of Pagan Gods and converted to the ways of a Jewish Messiah?

It aint that hard.

Give us an example of the things you would have us do, if they are not the things of Christ?

Could I get an answer on what Paul says, in scripture? Do you believe that those whom Paul calls Judaizers in the scriptures are the Lord's talmudim too?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I simply gave scripture HF. If that is not enough to get an answer, so be it.


Again, I merely quoted what Paul said in the scriptures. Maybe the problem here is not understanding I quoted Paul and what he said.


Could I get an answer on what Paul says, in scripture? Do you that those whom Paul calls Judaizers in the scriptures are the Lord's talmudim too?

I am a Messianic Annier, and I have been called a Judaizer for over 15 years.

Any Christian who has ever run across me has no doubt that I am the biggest Judaizer in the world. It used to seriously hurt when so many have called me by that name, but now I wear it like a badge, in fact, I am THE Judaizer, and proud of it.


Do you know what the difference is between a Christian and a supposed Judaizer is?

I will tell you about the true ways of Jesus because I know his ways, BECAUSE I have studied his ways in theory and practice.


What do you tell people when they ask you what religion you are?

I tell them that I am a Messianic.

Is that what you tell people?



I am very proud of converting many gentiles to the customs of the Jews, and I am proud to tell any gentile what I think they should do concerning tradition, customs, and rituals.

I will flat out tell everyone what I believe and I will stand on what I say, BECAUSE I am a Messianic and I am proud to be a Messianic.

But being a Messianic goes without saying, we are people who Christians believe, are Judaizers.


I stand on the ways of Jesus, what exactly do promote gentiles to Keep?


What Sabbath, what Holy days, what customs, what rituals, what traditions would you have me keep?

its not a hard question.

 

[annier]

I am a Messianic Annier, and I have been called a Judaizer for over 15 years.

Any Christian who has ever run across me has no doubt that I am the biggest Judaizer in the world. It used to seriously hurt when so many have called me by that name, but now I wear it like a badge, in fact, I am THE Judaizer, and proud of it.


Do you know what the difference is between a Christian and a supposed Judaizer is?

I will tell you about the true ways of Jesus because I know his ways, BECAUSE I have studied his ways in theory and practice.


What do you tell people when they ask you what religion you are?

I tell them that I am a Messianic.

Is that what you tell people?



I am very proud of converting many gentiles to the customs of the Jews, and I am proud to tell any gentile what I think they should do concerning tradition, customs, and rituals.

I will flat out tell everyone what I believe and I will stand on what I say, BECAUSE I am a Messianic and I am proud to be a Messianic.

But being a Messianic goes without saying, we are people who Christians believe, are Judaizers.


I stand on the ways of Jesus, what exactly do promote gentiles to Keep?


What Sabbath, what Holy days, what customs, what rituals, what traditions would you have me keep?

its not a hard question.

I have no problem with anyone keeping cultural customs and traditions of Judaism. I myself have done so many times.
I just differ with making traditions equal to law. As though keeping rabbinic traditions were keeping the law.
But as for Paul, He was against Judaizers.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I have no problem with anyone keeping cultural customs and traditions of Judaism. I myself have done so many times.
I just differ with making traditions equal to law. As though keeping rabbinic traditions were keeping the law.
But as for Paul, He was against Judaizers.

1) to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise
1a) one who observes the ritual law of the Jews


This is me Annier.

I compel people to look into the customs, traditions, and rituals of Jews.

I compel people to give up the ways of Pagans, pagan traditions, and to convert to the traditions, rituals, feast days of Christ.

Am I a Judaizer because I compel people to keep the feast of Tabernacles?

And if a Judaizer, what does it say about me?

Am I leading people down the wrong path?

 

[annier]

1) to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise
1a) one who observes the ritual law of the Jews


This is me Annier.

I compel people to look into the customs, traditions, and rituals of Jews.

I compel people to give up the ways of Pagans, pagan traditions, and to convert to the traditions, rituals, feast days of Christ.

Am I a Judaizer because I compel people to keep the feast of Tabernacles?

And if a Judaizer, what does it say about me?

Am I leading people down the wrong path?

Do you teach that these customs are keeping Moses law? I really am not sure Judaizing can be the same today as it was then. As the temple was standing and the law coulld be kept. It seems then, they distinguished between customs and law. Today, it just appears blurred together.

 

[danny ski]

I have no problem with anyone keeping cultural customs and traditions of Judaism. I myself have done so many times.
I just differ with making traditions equal to law. As though keeping rabbinic traditions were keeping the law.
But as for Paul, He was against Judaizers.

Actually this is very simple. Moses established first courts and judges. They derive authority from his decision. Whatever they and their descendants decided were and are laws governing our religious lives. The key word here is OUR. You are free to agree or disagree, but you're not part of Judaism. You are under no obligation whatsoever.

 

[annier]

Actually this is very simple. Moses established first courts and judges. They derive authority from his decision.

I think it is quite clear myself, but others may disagree.
Authority to give law at the mouth rested with the priesthood.
De 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
9 And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. {and will … : Heb. not to hearken}

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried: {word: Heb. mouth}

Mal 2:7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Whatever they and their descendants decided were and are laws governing our religious lives. The key word here is OUR. You are free to agree or disagree, but you're not part of Judaism. You are under no obligation whatsoever.

God fearing Gentiles learned the law too. God fearing Gentiles in Judaism are not lawless.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Do you teach that these customs are keeping Moses law? I really am not sure Judaizing can be the same today as it was then. As the temple was standing and the law coulld be kept. It seems then, they distinguished between customs and law. Today, it just appears blurred together.

A Judaizer is somebody who teaches somebody else to keep a law to be saved.


But today a Judaizer is a person in support of Jewish customs and traditions, and anything Jewish.

It's like that definition you gave, it doesn't relate what a Judaizer really was when Paul was speaking of it.

I don't tell anyone to keep any law to be saved, I wouldn't tell a gentile to be circumcised for salvation, and I wouldn't tell a gentile that he has to keep all the traditions and Holy days of God for salvation.

So I wouldn't demand any gentile to keep law or tradition, but having said that, I would, however, ask a Christian what he is doing in his Pagan tradition and then to say its of Christ.


I am trying to figure out what you think a Judaizer is, it is not a person who adopts Jewish custom, and it is not a person who teaches other gentiles to seek out Jewish custom, and keep them.

It is a person who claims that gentiles have to keep all the things Jews keep for salvation.

But in this day and age where the majority have rejected the ways of God, and taken on any Pagan tradition or Holy day, those people are always trying to find ways to say derogatory things about people who love keeping God's ways, and who love to seek out the true traditions of God.

I don't know any Messianics who teach gentiles that they have to keep certain laws for salvation, but yet, the majority of the Christian world will tell a Messianic that he is a Judaizer.


I think the focus should be taken off people who want to keep the ways of the Jewish Messiah, and then be put on people who have rejected the ways of the Jewish Messiah to put in its place, everything Pagan and not of God.


Is Jesus the reason for the season?


Do you keep Christmas and Easter?


What exactly do you keep?

 

[annier]

A Judaizer is somebody who teaches somebody else to keep a law to be saved.


But today a Judaizer is a person in support of Jewish customs and traditions, and anything Jewish.

It's like that definition you gave, it doesn't relate what a Judaizer really was when Paul was speaking of it.

I don't tell anyone to keep any law to be saved, I wouldn't tell a gentile to be circumcised for salvation, and I wouldn't tell a gentile that he has to keep all the traditions and Holy days of God for salvation.

So I wouldn't demand any gentile to keep law or tradition, but having said that, I would, however, ask a Christian what he is doing in his Pagan tradition and then to say its of Christ.


I am trying to figure out what you think a Judaizer is, it is not a person who adopts Jewish custom, and it is not a person who teaches other gentiles to seek out Jewish custom, and keep them.

It is a person who claims that gentiles have to keep all the things Jews keep for salvation.

But in this day and age where the majority have rejected the ways of God, and taken on any Pagan tradition or Holy day, those people are always trying to find ways to say derogatory things about people who love keeping God's ways, and who love to seek out the true traditions of God.

I don't know any Messianics who teach gentiles that they have to keep certain laws for salvation, but yet, the majority of the Christian world will tell a Messianic that he is a Judaizer.


I think the focus should be taken off people who want to keep the ways of the Jewish Messiah, and then be put on people who have rejected the ways of the Jewish Messiah to put in its place, everything Pagan and not of God.


Is Jesus the reason for the season?


Do you keep Christmas and Easter?


What exactly do you keep?

Well I have answered you enough. But I have yet to get an answer from you. So, I will ask one more time. Do you agree or disagree with the post that claims the Judaizers in scripture are the Lord's talmudim?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Well I have answered you enough. But I have yet to get an answer from you. So, I will ask one more time. Do you agree or disagree with the post that claims the Judaizers in scripture are the Lord's talmudim?

You don't have to answer, I already know the answer.

Its quite obvious.

The conversation you are having with Lulav, is with Lulav.

I haven't answered because I have no idea what you suppose is a ,'' Judaizer.''

If the definition you give is this~1) to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise
1a) one who observes the ritual law of the Jews.

Then I must be a Judaizer, so what is my answer going to be?

I mean, if that's what you think a Judaizer is.