Help in understanding Rev 13: 9-15

[newbeliever02072005]

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering what everyone thought about this. I went to my bible study this evening. Which is about the book of Revelation. Tonight was about chapter 13 vs 9-15.

Now, I might sound like I'm rambling or not sure what I am talking about, that is where I was hoping people could see my holes and fill in the gaps for me.

Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear
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I was told that these verses are during the tribulation period. So, what this verse is saying is that all men should listen up and start believing in Christ, cause this is your last chance for salvation.


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Rev 13: 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
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The first part of this "he that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity"...are these the saints that are here on earth during the tribulation period? They are being held in "captivity on earth" until Christ comes at the end of the tribulation period? The second part of that verse "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." Is this the "eye for an eye" thing that is talked about in the bible. If you are going to go out and kill violently then you will be killed violently also? (please remember I am so very new to this, so I am not sure of where bible verses are exactly. I pray you all can be patient with me )


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Rev 13: 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.​

"And beheld another beast".....this is the false prophet? This is when he proves to the "world" that he is the messiah rising from the dead? (ref. Matthew 24:24) The rest of the scripture goes on to give us an idea or an image of what the anti-christ might look like? "and he spake as a dragon." The dragon is representative of Satan, correct?


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Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
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"and he" The false prophet will have special powers only in the prescence of the beast. Is this Satan? This is where I get confused I suppose. Dragon or beast, which is representative of Satan? Satan is not omnipresent so that would mean that this false prophet only has powers bestowed on him from Satan when Satan is present with the false prophet. Satan is going to give this false prophet the ability to heal the deadly wound so that it gives "credibility" to his claim of being the messiah. Right?


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Rev 13:13 And he doesth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
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Another sign that will cause people to believe and follow this anti-christ or false prophet?


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Rev 13: 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
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The people that will be following this messiah will be looking up to an image , which would be considered in God's eyes a false god or an idol, that he has created as a symbol to worship of him. I think in the commandments it says that we are not to worship an image or an idol of any kind. If this messiah that creates this image is for real, then he is then breaking a commandment from God. This could be a very good indicator to men that this false prophet is definately false. Wouldn't you agree?


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Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
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If God is the only one that can GIVE LIFE ....then how is Satan going to give life to this anti-christ or false prophet? Any ideas on how he might pull this trick off?




Hope I didn't make a total mess out of this. Just wondering if I am getting anything out of this bible study I'm attending or not. If I'm not, I think I might hang this study up and try and find a "Bible Basics 101" class


Oh, one more question, if you all don't mind. When God takes his people during the rapture. God will be taking all children that is not of accountabilty. Then begins the tribulation period. Do you all think that God will "breathe" life into more babies during the tribulation period? If so, those children at the end of the tribulation period would be all under the age of 7 years old. All those children will be taken up with the saints that were left here on earth? Cause the bible just talks (atleast what I've read so far) that only the saints (which are martyrs) will be taken, nothing about children being taken.

Ok, Im done......THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME WITH THIS!!!!

God Bless!
newbeliever ​

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[Matthan]

Newbeliever, you would start with some of the most difficult verses in all of Scripture! Anyway, I'll give it a shot (me and my trusty Liberty Commentary, that is).

Verses 9 & 10 : Here we are cautioned that, in these days, we are to use patience over violence. We will be hard pressed by the agents and followers of the beast, and we must preservere as Christians, even to martyrdom if need be. We must exhibit our sole faith in God to all others.

Verse 11: (Earlier, the "first" beast came out of the sea, which probably makes him a Gentile. In this verse, the second beast comes comes out of the land, which generally denotes a Jew. And, in this case, we can expect him to be an apostate Jew, mainly because he will pose as the Messiah and they (the Jews) will not be fooled by a non-Jew. Eventually this guy will claim to be God Himself. Since deceit and falsehood are his forte, he will find such claims easy to make. And about "he spake as a dragon", this guy will attempt to speak like Christ in meekness and humility. However, his speech will betray him to all who believe in Christ.

Verse 12: Satan, the first beast, still rules. This second beast, the anti-christ, will get his followers to worship the first beast.

Verse 13: Here is how he will fool many people. He will do great things that people will believe are from (could only be done by) God. God gives Satan this power, as Paul tells us clearly. God wants those who do not believe in Him to be fooled completely. If they do not have faith in Him, then why should He care in any way about them?

Verses 14 & 15: More on the special powers of Satan and the anti-christ. They will create an image of the first beast, and actually give it a form of "life." It will fool all those individuals who do not know God intimately. That is what God wants, believe it or not!

Now, about your question concerning infants and small children. During the trib they will have a hard time of it. Jesus actually told us this would be true with,

"For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us."

Luke 23:29-30

But do not have fear for them. Small innocent children hold a special place in God's heart. Their angels do daily look upon his face. (See Matthew 18:10)

I hope this has helped you in some way. May God bless you....

Matthan <J><

 

[SonOfThunder]

wow! well done Matthan, I had a too hard basket for this topic myself.



Newbeliever, it's great you have the questions, some will go over your head. Let it, eventually it will all knit together as you study.

James

 

[PapaLandShark]

You might also, for quick reference, try here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Find a verse and select the blue "L" to the left. Use the drop down menu arrow to select a commentary such as:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1114063673-7086.html

Hope this helps!

 

[Simon_Templar]

Matthan's explanation was pretty good, but there are a couple of comments I'd make.

First is to clarify that there are actually two people in the end time scenario, which people often lump together under the term "anti-christ". In revelation they are described as the first beast and the second beast, or the beast and the false prophet.

The first beast rises out of the seas, matthan is correct that this signifies the gentile peoples. The reason for this is that through out scriptures, the "nations" or the gentiles are refered to as " many waters" etc. So the first beast will be a gentile. Also his description is almost identical to descriptions given in daniel which tie him to rome (more on this in a sec). This first beast starts out as a political and military power.

The second beast comes out of the land and again Matthan is correct, "THE land" is Israel throughout scripture. Thus this signifies that he is an Israelite. This beast appears to have mostly religious traits in revelations. However, it is not true that he sets himself up as God exactly.. the statue that he sets up is the image of the first beast, not of himself... so he causes people to worship the first beast as God.

In daniel we find these two men represented also. The first beast, in daniel, is represented as the Prince of chapter 9 who comes out of the people who destroy the temple (rome) He makes a treaty with Israel, but half way through breaks the treaty and causes the abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation is prophecied twice in daniel, the first fulfillment of it was when Antiochus Epiphanes set up an image of Zues in the temple (which lead to the macabean revolt). The second instance prophecied is caused by the Roman Prince (which inidcates that he will have his image set in the temple).

The second beast in revelation, the false prophet, is fortold in daniel chapter 11 as the "willful king" beginning in verse 36. This willful king is linked to Israel (the glorious land) and it is said that holds not the desire of women. This is not a refrence to him being gay, but rather the jewish idiom was that the desire of women was to bear the messiah. So he cares nothing for the messiah, and he does not honor the God of his fathers (both again suggesting that he is jewish). He exalts himself above every god, EXCEPT that he honors a god of forces. With this god of forces he is able to over throw the strongest fortresses, and he in turn gives glory to this god in the form of adoration and wealth.

So the situation presented is that a mighty political military ruler comes out of Rome (some part there of) who allies himself with a ruler of Israel. With the military backing of the prince of rome, the ruler of Israel accomplishes everything that the israelites want... but this ruler is not a traditional religious man, and in the end he exalts the prince who empowered him, and eventually sets up an image of the prince in the temple and glorifies him by causing people to worship the image. The Israeli ruler will style himself as a messiah, an annointed ruler who points people not to himself, but to the god behind him, who is the prince.

 

[newbeliever02072005]

Newbeliever, you would start with some of the most difficult verses in all of Scripture! Anyway, I'll give it a shot (me and my trusty Liberty Commentary, that is).
I know, I must be crazy

Verses 9 & 10 : Here we are cautioned that, in these days, we are to use patience over violence. We will be hard pressed by the agents and followers of the beast, and we must preservere as Christians, even to martyrdom if need be. We must exhibit our sole faith in God to all others.
I don't think it will be hard for the saints to do this, would you agree?

Verse 11: (Earlier, the "first" beast came out of the sea, which probably makes him a Gentile. In this verse, the second beast comes comes out of the land, which generally denotes a Jew. And, in this case, we can expect him to be an apostate Jew, mainly because he will pose as the Messiah and they (the Jews) will not be fooled by a non-Jew. Eventually this guy will claim to be God Himself. Since deceit and falsehood are his forte, he will find such claims easy to make. And about "he spake as a dragon", this guy will attempt to speak like Christ in meekness and humility. However, his speech will betray him to all who believe in Christ.
How do you know that sea is representative of a Gentile and that land is representative of a Jew?

Verse 12: Satan, the first beast, still rules. This second beast, the anti-christ, will get his followers to worship the first beast.
Ok, I think I am starting to see an Unholy trinity here. Satan(Unholy Father), Anti-Christ (Unholy Son)........yes, no???



dumb question here...Paul is the author of Revelation? If so, how did the contents of this book come to Paul.....in a dream?

Why would God want the non-believers to be fooled? Isn't God wanting ALL souls to be with Him in heaven? I would think that God wouldn't want this yet or during this period of time yet. Cause isn't this still during the tribulation period. So, there is still time for non-believers to convert, right? When does God finally say enough is enough and ends it all?

Verses 14 & 15: More on the special powers of Satan and the anti-christ. They will create an image of the first beast, and actually give it a form of "life." It will fool all those individuals who do not know God intimately. That is what God wants, believe it or not!
How do you think Satan can give life, when God is the only one that can do that? I have one thought. There is technology out there now for cloning. They have performed it with animals. The next step is going to be a human. I honestly can't see a human clone has a God breathed spirit. Could this be a way that Satan can give the appearance of life? Fooling many people.

Now, about your question concerning infants and small children. During the trib they will have a hard time of it. Jesus actually told us this would be true with, Luke 23:29-30

But do not have fear for them. Small innocent children hold a special place in God's heart. Their angels do daily look upon his face. (See Matthew 18:10)
According to Luke 23:29-30 then, no babies will be born during the tribulation period. Cause the "womb that never bare" would indicate no more births.

I hope this has helped you in some way. May God bless you....

Matthan <J><

Absolutely, thank you for taking the time to help me out here.

God Bless!
newbeliever

 

[newbeliever02072005]

You might also, for quick reference, try here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Find a verse and select the blue "L" to the left. Use the drop down menu arrow to select a commentary such as:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1114063673-7086.html

Hope this helps!

Thank you - I looked at those sites. They look like they will be a big help for me (Added them to my favorites list).


God Bless!
newbeliever

 

[newbeliever02072005]

Matthan's explanation was pretty good, but there are a couple of comments I'd make.

Sure !

First is to clarify that there are actually two people in the end time scenario, which people often lump together under the term "anti-christ". In revelation they are described as the first beast and the second beast, or the beast and the false prophet.

The first beast rises out of the seas, matthan is correct that this signifies the gentile peoples. The reason for this is that through out scriptures, the "nations" or the gentiles are refered to as " many waters" etc. So the first beast will be a gentile.


Also his description is almost identical to descriptions given in daniel which tie him to rome (more on this in a sec). This first beast starts out as a political and military power.

Ok...sea = gentile= 1st beast, which =s Anti-christ?

The second beast comes out of the land and again Matthan is correct, "THE land" is Israel throughout scripture. Thus this signifies that he is an Israelite. This beast appears to have mostly religious traits in revelations. However, it is not true that he sets himself up as God exactly.. the statue that he sets up is the image of the first beast, not of himself... so he causes people to worship the first beast as God.

land=Jew=2nd beast, which =s False Prophet?

In daniel we find these two men represented also. The first beast, in daniel, is represented as the Prince of chapter 9 who comes out of the people who destroy the temple (rome) He makes a treaty with Israel, but half way through breaks the treaty and causes the abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation is prophecied twice in daniel, the first fulfillment of it was when Antiochus Epiphanes set up an image of Zues in the temple (which lead to the macabean revolt). The second instance prophecied is caused by the Roman Prince (which inidcates that he will have his image set in the temple).

Ok, Im going to seminary school to learn all of this!!!! Maybe I can fit it in between diaper changings and preparing dinner, or wait I might have time after doing the piles of laundry for a 5 person household ...j/k

Soooo, this Macabean revolt has already happen (do I need a history lesson too? ).? Now we are waiting for the 2nd abomination of desolation to happen? You mention "Roman Prince"...could this be interpted to be maybe a Roman Catholic person? (I hope I don't offend anyone with that question, sorry if I have)

The second beast in revelation, the false prophet, is fortold in daniel chapter 11 as the "willful king" beginning in verse 36. This willful king is linked to Israel (the glorious land) and it is said that holds not the desire of women. This is not a refrence to him being gay, but rather the jewish idiom was that the desire of women was to bear the messiah. So he cares nothing for the messiah, and he does not honor the God of his fathers (both again suggesting that he is jewish). He exalts himself above every god, EXCEPT that he honors a god of forces. With this god of forces he is able to over throw the strongest fortresses, and he in turn gives glory to this god in the form of adoration and wealth.

So the situation presented is that a mighty political military ruler comes out of Rome (some part there of) who allies himself with a ruler of Israel. With the military backing of the prince of rome, the ruler of Israel accomplishes everything that the israelites want... but this ruler is not a traditional religious man, and in the end he exalts the prince who empowered him, and eventually sets up an image of the prince in the temple and glorifies him by causing people to worship the image. The Israeli ruler will style himself as a messiah, an annointed ruler who points people not to himself, but to the god behind him, who is the prince.

My head is spinning :o. To sum it up,

A Gentile Anti-christ is going to align himself up with the Jewish false prophet. The Anti-christ is going to receive "special powers " from Satan to give the illussion that the false prophet is the messiah. The anti-christ is going to sing praises and glorify this false prophet by setting up an image of him in the holy temple. This is where he will start to build up satan's army against God?

Here is the completion of the Unholy Trinity.....

Unholy Father (Satan), Unholy Son (Anti-Christ), Unholy Spirit (False Prophet)


Advice needed:
1... Do I hang up the bible study on revelation,
2... Do I hang in there and try to grasp this,
3....Do I go to school for all of this or,
4....Do I just learn my patiences and depend on God to show me what HE WANTS me to know?

Hey I know, I'd say answer is 4 .......i catch on fast, huh?

Thank you again for your help, I sure do appreciate it

God Bless!
newbeliever

 

[Simon_Templar]

Hey,

Sorry if i confused you, I'll try to clarify.

in answer to your last question first.. you hang in there, read revelation, do some study on your own (consider what people have to say but don't take their word for it, even if they are an "expert" or a "bible scholar".) Take it as much at face value as possible.

Revelation is the only book in the bible which promises a blessing, just for reading the book, so stick with it. I also recomend comparing revelation with What Jesus says in matthew chapters 24&25 and daniel's chapters 9 and 11


I'll give you the summary of what I was trying to say

There will be a guy who become a political military power, probably in Europe. He is the first beast. He will make an alliance with an Israeli leader who will be a very charismatic figure who will probably have a new age humanist style religious bent, this is the second beast (or false prophet).
As part of this alliance the first guy from Europe (we'll call him the beast), will use his political power and military power to back the second guy from Israel (we'll call him the false prophet). With the military backing of the beast, the false prophet will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, and he will plunder Israel's enemies.
In return for the military and political backing, the false prophet will glorify the beast and he will act as the prophet of the beast. When they reach the height of their power, the False Prophet will set up an image of the Beast in the temple, he will declare that the beast is God and will cause people to worship the beast as God.

This does indeed form the unholy trinity. you could make arguments for who is which part of the trinity, but this is my best guess on that

The false prophet is the son, he is the messianic figure, he is the annointed king of israel who directs the people to worship his god.

The beast is the father, he is the one who both directs the actions of the false prophet and also gives him backing. He is also the one who is worshiped as God.

Satan takes on the role of the Holy Spirit because he is the unsees power behind the two. He indwells both and he empowers them to do signs and wonders.

As for who is the antichrist.. the truth is either one of the figures could accurately be described as antichrist, so they are both antichrist.



this section is not necessary for the above, but its historical background to explain some things I mentioned in the first post but didn't explain clearly.

The 1st abomination of desolation..
The book of daniel fortells a number of things dealing with Alexander the Great and his immediate successors. When alexander the great died his empire was divided up among his top generals rather than going to his infant son (this was fortold be daniel).
One of the generals took control of egypt, his name was ptolemy. Another General took control of syria and babylon, his name was Selucus. (there were others but they aren't important to this story).
Daniel chapter 11 (up until verse 36) fortells a long series of wars which occured between Egypt and Syria. In chapter 11 syria is refered to as "the king of the north" and Egypt as "the king of the south". Their positions of course are given relative to Israel (which is refered to in the prophecy as the glorious land).

One of the kings who arose in Syria took the name Antiochus Epiphanes (which means Antiochus the glorious shinning one). Antiochus Epiphanes started meddling around in Israel and trying to pervert the poluace away from the true God. He started by introducing the olympic style games, and sporting events, which in ancient culture were actually religious events and required the participants to sacrifice to the patron gods of the event. The sports themselves in greek religion were seen as a sort of offering or worship to the gods. This began to pervert the younger generation of jews. The last straw came when Antiochus erected a statue of Zeus in the Holy of Holies in the temple in jerusalem, and sacrificed a pig on the alter to zeus.
As a response to the sons of the Jewish high priestly family lead a revolt which defeated the syrians and successfuly liberated Israel. The leader of the revolt was named but in the war he was given the nick name "the hammer" which in hebrew was Maccabeus, so he is most commonly known as Judas Maccabeus, and the revolt he lead is known as the Maccabean revolt. (this is also fortold in daniel chapter 11). this is when the famous events occured which are commemorated in the Jewish holiday of Hannukah (sp).
Another similar instance actually happened in 68 AD when Nero had a statue of Zeus with Nero's head put in the temple. It sparked another revolt which this time lead to the destruction of Jersualem by the romans in 70 AD.

Hopefully I didn't confuse you more. I tend to get into this stuff and then I just ramble

 

[Radagast]

Let me try:

9 He who has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints

This is saying that God's plan will happen, even the uncomfortable bits. That applies not just to the end times, but also to the present.

11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

This is widely debated. I think it refers partly to persecution that happened to the Church in John's time, and partly to persecution today (in many countries today, the words "all who refused to worship the image to be killed" are fulfilled), and also partly to the end times.

16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Again, I think this refers partly to persecution that happened to the Church in John's time, and partly to persecution today (in many countries today, the words "no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark" are fulfilled), and also partly to the end times.

18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

Best guess on the 666 is that it refers to the Emperor Nero ("Nero Caesar" adds up to 666 in Hebrew letters), but Nero is a representative of all future persecutors of the Church.

Hope this helps,

-- Radagast

 

[Leimeng]

~ Of course, Rome does not have to be the city talked about in Revelations. There are other candidates. Geneva Switzerland for example. A city of seven hills/mountains; Headquarters of international banking; Headquarters of World Council of Churches. Deeply rooted in false religion (Calvin).
~ I say you should just read the book of Revelations and be blessed because that is what it says will happen.
~ Trust God, trust Jesus, trust the Holy Spirit.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

 

[Simon_Templar]

Well, revelation 17 pretty clearly identifies the city as rome in my opinion. My reasoning is this. chapter 17 has to be read as in context of John's time other wise the sequence of kings he mentions makes no sense. Then at the end of the chapter John says that the city is "the great city which rules over the earth" in john's time that could only be rome.

I don't think that necessarily means that babylon will be the roman catholic church. I actually think it is more likely that there will be a new religious organization (based on new age humanism) founded in rome by the UN and the EU.

 

[Radagast]

Well, revelation 17 pretty clearly identifies the city as rome in my opinion. My reasoning is this. chapter 17 has to be read as in context of John's time other wise the sequence of kings he mentions makes no sense. Then at the end of the chapter John says that the city is "the great city which rules over the earth" in john's time that could only be rome.

Indeed. But Revelation also suggests that spiritually, Rome and Jersulaem are the same city (see Rev 11:8). So the "great city" in the future could be anywhere -- but we would recognise it by its behaviour.

-- Radagast

 

[Simon_Templar]

Radagast,

Yes, and no

In the history of the world there are two cities, or kingdoms, whichever model you prefer. They both start right at the beginning, the good city begins with Abel and then Seth... God's chosen remnant. The city of God.
The other city begins with Cain, its the city of man (kingdom of this world etc etc).

through out history these two cities run. The city of man ever trying to obtain dominion and conquer the city of God. The city of God is not yet of this world, so those who are its citizens are wanderers, sojourners in this world. This is why when you look through out scripture, the city of man is always portrayed as settled society, empires etc, while the citizens of the city of God are always nomads, shepards, people who live outside settled society.

Babylon very early on became the first attmept of the city of man to implement its dominon over all mankind. Thus babylon has forever been used as symbolic of the city of man. Rome became the next great embodiement of this city and so is often used as a symbol for it as well.

The heart of the city of man is false religion, particularly humanistic religions, religions that elevate man to godhood.

The heart of the city of God of course is true religion.. God's chosen people, Israel, the church etc.

Both of these are represented in scripture as " a woman" the church of course is the bride of Christ, Israel was also represented as a woman.. and the false religion is also represented as a woman, the harlot.

In revelation 17 the last verse says,
"And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."

Now, this statement does allow for the great city in question to be taken in the symbolic sense as the city of man which is the false religions etc. However, it can also be taken in a literal sense that the woman (ie the false religions, the city of man) will rest on a real physical city which currently rules the kings of the earth. If that is the case it would be rome.
However, earlier in the chapter it says that the seven heads of the beast are seven hills on which the woman sits. This tends to indicate that the woman is not only representing the symbolic city but also a real physical city, which rests on seven hills. That leaves pretty much only two options, Rome and Jerusalem. Jerusalem has never yet ruled over the kings of the earth so it seems like rome is the best bet.

Your correct in pointing out that Jerusalem was likened to rome, and is also refered to in the bible as babylon. The reason for this is that although Jerusalem is God's chosen city, the israelites have through out history filled it up with wickedness and the blood of the prophets.. this is the work of the city of man, of babylon. So in the spiritual sense Jerusalem has been babylon and rome.

 

[Radagast]

.... The city of God. The other city begins with Cain, its the city of man (kingdom of this world etc etc).

I agree 100%

... it can also be taken in a literal sense that the woman (ie the false religions, the city of man) will rest on a real physical city which currently rules the kings of the earth. If that is the case it would be rome.

In John's time, the "other city" was centred in the "real physical city" of Rome. But in the future?

-- Radagast

 

[Simon_Templar]

well, it is possible that it could be another city, however, in my opinion, the message of revelation 17 is that the city it was in John's time, is the city it will be in the fulfillment of revelation as well.

Its obvious that all the things in the chapter such as the 7 kings, 5 have fallen, 1 is and 1 must come and remain for a short time, and "the woman is the great city..." those are all given in context of jonh's time. If they don't have a fixed refrence point (which can only be john's time) then they really don't have any meaning. However, in addition to the fact that they are given in refrence of John's time, the point of the passage is to reveal the mystery of babylon and the beast, as they will be at the end. Thus, in my opinion, the passage is essentially indicating that as the city literaly is rome in John's day, it will also be rome at the end.

this is also born up by other elements of prophecy, mostly from daniel, which strongly indicate that some form of the roman empire will produce the beast at the end.

 

[Simon_Templar]

So Radagast,

I've given you my view, more or less... whats yours?

PS. by your view I mean, what do you think or guess the meaning of the scripture in question is

 

[Radagast]

what do you think or guess the meaning of the scripture in question is

Apart from what I've said, I have no idea. It's a difficult book.

-- Radagast

 

[novcncy]

Well, revelation 17 .....QUOTE]

Now we're getting somewhere. I once heard a preacher named Ron Comfort say that the best commentary on scripture, is scripture. That said, Revelation 17 seems to be a pretty clear explanation of Revelation 13. Read it in that context, and see what you think.

 

[novcncy]

Both of these are represented in scripture as " a woman" the church of course is the bride of Christ, Israel was also represented as a woman.. and the false religion is also represented as a woman, the harlot.

In revelation 17 the last verse says,
"And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."

Now, this statement does allow for the great city in question to be taken in the symbolic sense as the city of man which is the false religions etc. However, it can also be taken in a literal sense that the woman (ie the false religions, the city of man) will rest on a real physical city which currently rules the kings of the earth. If that is the case it would be rome.
However, earlier in the chapter it says that the seven heads of the beast are seven hills on which the woman sits. This tends to indicate that the woman is not only representing the symbolic city but also a real physical city, which rests on seven hills. That leaves pretty much only two options, Rome and Jerusalem. Jerusalem has never yet ruled over the kings of the earth so it seems like rome is the best bet.
QUOTE]

If you look at the description of the woman in 17:1-7 you can get specific rather quickly. For instance, fornication with the kings (governments) of the earth, drunk with the blood of the saints (inquisition?), and her obvious wealth, all these point at only one place.

Also, Babylon is a symbol of compromise throughout the Bible. So a city advocating spiritual compromise could indeed be called spiritual Babylon.