Help in understanding Rev 13: 9-15

[Simon_Templar]

Revelation 13 & 17 - my thoughts and opinions


Alright... I guess I'll start by looking at each verse in question

starting with Revelation 13:10
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. "

Alright.. this verse is a statement of God's justice and judgement. Everyone who leads into captivity.. Those who lead into captivity are people who decieve (and thus make captive) to false beliefs, and also in a more physical sense these are people who make God's people prisoners (ie put them in jail etc) because of their beliefs. All of these people will, themselves will go into captivity because that is God's just judgement on them. Likewise all those who kill with the sword, ie those who martyr God's people, will themselves be killed with the sword, again God's judgement of justice against those who persecute his people.
"here is the patience of the saints" This is a statement which looks back at the two previous statements and says basicly, we know that God's justice will come upon those who persecute us, this knowledge is the patience of the saints, that we wait in persecution for the Justice of God to save us.

13:11
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. "

this beast comes up out of the land, signifying Israel. Thus he is an israeli. He has two horns like a lamb, the lamb of course is symbolic of Jesus/messiah and horns are usualy symbolic of power or authority. Thus this tends to suggest that he has authority which appears to be like that of Jesus or of the messiah. Remember that the thing which amazed the scribes and pharisees and the people in general about Jesus was he "spoke as one who had authority". His sermons on scripture his teachings had authority which even his enemies were astonished by.
"but he spake as a dragon". Of course the dragon is symbolic of Satan (and is used just one chapter before this). This person seems to speak with the authority of the messiah, yet what he says is straight from satan. His words are the words of the devil.

13:12
"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. "

This second beast has obvious power of his own (which seems to be a kind of religious authority), but yet in an interesting way, he exercises the power of the first beast... in some way this second beast is backed by and empowered by the first beast (see daniel and the king who does according to his will in chapter 11:36). As a result of the 1st beast allowing the 2nd beast to exercise his power.. the 2nd beast gives glory to the first beast and causes people to worship him.
To me this suggests that the 1st beast has temporal power (politics and military) while the 2nd beast has religious authority. The 1st beast becomes the muscle allowing the 2nd beast to do whatever he wants to do.. and in return the 2nd beast uses his religious authority to glorify and deify the 1st beast giving glory to him as god.

13:13
"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, "

This speaks of the miraculous and supernatural power/authority of the 2nd beast.

13:14
"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The 2nd beast by virtue of his supernatural power and miracles is able to decieve much of the world and causes them to place a statue of the first beast in the temple in Jerusalem. (the first beast is here, for the second time, referred to as having received a mortal wound (ie a death causing wound) and yet returning).

13:15
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

The 2nd beast is able through his sorcery to seemingly give a kind of life to the statue of the first beast which enables it to speak and to order people put to death when they don't worship it. This is very like the ancient practice under several roman emperors to test loyalty of citizens by having them sacrifice and worship his statue. Christians were often persecuted because they refused to show loyalty to the state by worshiping the emperor's statue.

13:16
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: "

For some reason the 2nd beast causes everyone under his power to recieved a mark on their right hand or forhead.

13:17
"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. "

Here we see that the mark given appears to be economic in nature. No one is able to partake in commerce unless they have the mark.

13:18
"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six."

Many people have concluded that the mark of the beast is 666, however, thats not exactly what this says. It technicaly never says what the mark is. It says that this is the number of the beast and it is a number of a man. It is notable that 6 is the number of man. on the 6th day man was created. 6 is one less than 7 which is complete perfection. Man is in the image of God but is less than God's complete perfection. 3 of course is the number of the trinity.. so when you take 666 you have the number of man elevated to godhood.
It has been pointed out that nero caeser adds up to 666. However, there are two early church writers who state that, although there is no way of knowing for sure what the name of the beast will be (because there are many possible ways to come to 666) they both suggested that one very likely possability, in their view, would be the name Titan. These writers also commented that many people were using the wrong method of calculating name values, so one does need to be careful because there is a wrong way and a right way to calculate the name value. I don't know what the correct way is.

I'll break this post here and give my views on revelation 17 in another post

 

[Simon_Templar]

Ok.. on to revelation 17 this chapter is one of my personal favorites

17:1
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: "

The angel comes to show John something new. Specificly he comes to show him the judgement of "babylon". The great harlot that sits on many waters. "many waters" throughout the bible indicates the gentile nations.. the great ocean of peoples. So the harlot rests upon the nations, all the peoples who are not God's people. Then there is the fact that she is the great harlot... well talk about that in the next verse.

17:2
"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. "

Again, one of the most common symbolisms in the bible is the use of marital relations to signify God's relationship with his people. Through out the bible both old and new testament, God's people are refered to as his bride. Likewise, the image of adultery and fornication is repeatedly used to signify when people worship other gods and go after false religions. This great harlot is a false religious system which rests upon all the gentile nations, and has seduced the entire world with her false religions.
The image of the wine presented here is continued later as well, I'll comment on that when it comes up again.

17:3
"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."

the angel transports john in the spirit to see the woman sitting upon the beast. The beast is scarlet (which could indicate blood, or it could also be an indicator of royal power) The beast is covered with blasphemous names, perhaps this is refrence to the often blasphemous titles that have been taken by rulers down through the centuries as they have declared themselves to be gods etc. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. First notice that this description is nearly identical to those given earlier in revelation of the 1st beast of chapter 13 and in daniel as well. These things will be elaborated later on in the prophecy

17:4
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: "

The woman is arrayed in purple and scarlet, both colors of wealth and power. In the ancient world colored cloth was expensive and fairly rare. Scarlet and purple in specific were colors often assosiated with royalty. Purple was the color of nobility in Rome and later became synonymous with imperial authority. She is decked with precious stones and the like. all this denotes her extreme wealth and outward glory. Think for a moment if you will of the fact that down through the ages in every culture of the ancient world the religious establishments held great wealth and power, their temples ordained with extravagant trappings. Often times they were also the store houses of their countries. (originaly purple signified nobility of the patrician class, only later did it become exclusively imperial).
The golden cup brings us back again to the wine of her fornication, again here the cup is full of filthiness, abominations, and fornication. Which describes the teachings and practices of the false religions.

17:5
"And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

As we talked about already in the thread, babylon is symbolic of the city of this world, the false religions down through time that have saught to overcome and corrupt God's people. This harlot is the mother of all others, she has produced the harlots and abominations of the earth. To me this tends to suggest that the great harlot is not necessarily one specific religion, but rather the overarching system that has been behind all false religions.

17:6
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Now, this I think completes the imagery of the cup and wine that the woman is holding. It says she is drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs. Through out the image, the use of wine and then the cup and now the blood seems to be a mockery of christian communion. As the gospel was new wine, as jesus made wine at the wedding in cana, so her wine is filthy, an abomination and it is not of a wedding, but it is of fornication. Our wine is the Blood of Jesus, hers it the blood of Martyrs and saints. As a side note the word "admiration" here means to marvel or wonder.. as in astonishment, not positive admiration.

17:7
"And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. "

Alright the angel is going to tell us the mystery Here's where the fun starts

17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Alright, going back to revelation 13, we've seen all these refrenecs about the beast being wounded and coming back from the wound etc. Here we have the key to understanding this. The beast on which the woman sits, is the same as the 1st beast of revelation 13. We are told that the beast once was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit.
As with the rest of this chapter, it seems likely that the verb tenses in this verse must be understood in context of john's time. The beast once was alive on earth, is not currently alive on earth, but will come up out of the bottomless pit to once again be alive on earth. Moreover, the entire world (well all those who aren't saved anyway) will marvel at this. implicit in this statement is the fact that the world will recognize the beast and will know that he once was, then was not, and now is again.

17:9
"And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

I'll lump this together with the next verse

17:10
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Ok.. The seven heads of the beast are hear explained. they represent seven mountains (hills) that the woman sits on. Immediately this conjures an image of two famous cities that sit on seven hills.. Rome, and Jerusalem.
The seven heads are also seven kings. this tends to create a picture in which the seven heads are seven archtypes, or seven incarnations of the spirit behind the beast.
this section must be read in context of john's time (since the revelation is being made to john and explained to john) or it doesn't make any sense. 5 of the kings had already ruled and fallen by john's time, the 6th was ruling at john's time and the seventh is yet to come, and will only remain for a short time.
Who are these seven kings... well I'll get to that in the next verse

17:11
"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

This tells us that the beast is an eigth king who is of the seven, ie he somehow belongs to the seven (or possible he IS one of the seven). The statement about the beast that he is going to perdition raises another interesting point. We know so far from revelation 13 that the beast has a statue of himself erected and worshiped. Paul also speaks of this and calls this man the "son of perdition". Paul also makes refrence to the son of perdition being restrained or held until the appointed time. This mystery is also explained by revelation 17 because it tells us WHERE the son of perdition is being held.. he is held in the bottomless pit until the appointed time.

So anyway, going back to who the 7 kings are and who the beast is. The idea has been put forward that the 7 kings are the first 7 caesars and that the 8th is an 8th caesar. the first seven being Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, vespasian, and Titus.. the 8th being Domitian. In this understanding Domitian was seen as a rebirth of Nero because both of them severely persecuted the church. However, there are historical problems with this view. First of all there are actually more than 7 caesars that ruled during this time. In 68 AD Nero's reign had become so unbearable that there was a general revolt in the empire.
In the year 68-69 there were no less than 6 different caesars, not including Vespasian. To be honest, I dont have a problem with excluding them because they weren't historicaly important. But technicaly a few of them were officialy recognized emperors.

The second problem, is much the greater problem. If this is the correct interpetation it would require that John was on the island of patmos, receiving the revelation during the reign of Vespasian (5 have fallen, one is and one must come). The king who is, in this sequence would have to be vespasian. This requires that John would have had to have been exiled to Patmos by Nero, and remained on the island receiving the revelation after Vespasian became emperor in 69 AD but before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD (the preterist view point requires this).
The problem for this view is that historicaly John has always been believed to have been exiled to Patmos by Domitian (81-96 AD) and only in the last couple hundred years has this been questioned. The argument pivots on what amounts to the only real conclusive bit of evidence that either side has to work with. This is a stamement made by St. Irenaeus that John was exiled and recieved the revelation during the reign of "domitianou". The preterist position goes to Robert Young a 19th century NT scholar who argued that "domitianou" refers to "domitius Nero" not to Domitian. Young argues that Domitians name would be "domitianikos" not "domitianou".
However, in greek in the new testament era the "-ou" ending one a word indicates the genitive case (ie the posessive) so, if a you were going to write "reign of domitian" domitian would have to be in the genitive case and would be "domitianou" just as Irenaeus wrote. "-ikos" on the other hand is a greek adjectival ending rather than a genitive ending. If you were to write Domitianikos, it would be something like how we say the "elizibethan era" while this could be a correct usage, "domitianou" is also a correct usage for the name of Domitian in this case. Therefore there is no reason to suppose that the account does not refer to Domitian, which is how all scholars have viewed it for about 1500 years.
To me this is good enough proof to accept that John was exiled by domitian.

That then leaves the question.. who are the 7? I don't claim to know conclusively, but my opinion is that these 7 kings probably refer to the 7 empires (and their embodiment in one specific king) who have tried to destroy God's people. If this is the case the seven would be
Egypt (pharoh at the time of the exodus)
Assyria ( Shalmaneser V or Sargon II)
Babylon (Nebuchadnezer)
Persia (there are a few candidates for the king but what sticks out is the attempted genocide of the jewish people by Haman)
Greece (or selucid empire) (alexander, or possibly Antiochus Epiphanes)
Rome (Nero, or Domitian although in rome there are other possible candidates as well)
The seventh of course is even more speculative since its future, however my guess would be
Nazi Germany (hitler)

I think this is inline also with the visions daniel is given of the empires of man (although those begin at his time specificly so they cut out the empires before his time egypt and assyria).

17:12
"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Here the horns are explained, ten kings which as of yet have no kingdom, they will reign for a very short time along with the beast

17:13
"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. "

The ten kings come to power with the purpose of supporting and setting up the beast. The image this conjures to me is a council of rulers, or a legislative body of some sort that comes into being to establish the beast. I think that as politics in europe progress the EU or some form of it, will establish a ten member ruling council, each member representing one of the major original EU founding nations. This council will have power to rule the EU behind the guise of democratic government. This council also will establish the beast (who will probably be one of the members) and be the seat of power from which he rises.

continued

 

[Simon_Templar]

-Continued-

17:14
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful. "

These kings will seek to destory christianity, but Jesus will overcome. They more over will seek to destroy Jesus by elevating one of their own as god and messiah.

17:15
"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

here the angel explains as we have already discussed the waters are many nations

17:16
"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. "

Now this is interesting.. the political side, the power of the first beast in revelation which has been the support of the false religions (the woman sits on the beast, it is her support) will turn upon the system of false religions and destroy it. I have often commented that relativistic humanism, which I think will form the foundation of the end time religion, is a transient philosophy. It can't be sustained, and it can't sustain a society because it allows no exercise of authority or power.. so it will destroy try to destroy the christian world view, only to replace it (and itself) with something else.
Even so, the 10 kings and the beast turn upon the harlot and destroy her.

17:17
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

These kings will agree to all this because it is God's will to fill up the wickedness of the world and history and bring it to and end.

17:18
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Earlier we were told that the woman sat on seven hills our mountains, and now we are told she is the great city that rules the kings of the earth... in my opinion, that seems very likely to be Rome. I believe the EU and the UN will set up a world religious system centered in Rome, basicly mocking that the church has been centered in Rome for 2000 years (an no I'm not a catholic)

sorry this was so long

 

[newbeliever02072005]

Revelation 13 & 17 - my thoughts and opinions


Alright... I guess I'll start by looking at each verse in question

starting with Revelation 13:10
"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. "

Alright.. this verse is a statement of God's justice and judgement. Everyone who leads into captivity.. Those who lead into captivity are people who decieve (and thus make captive) to false beliefs, and also in a more physical sense these are people who make God's people prisoners (ie put them in jail etc) because of their beliefs. All of these people will, themselves will go into captivity because that is God's just judgement on them. Likewise all those who kill with the sword, ie those who martyr God's people, will themselves be killed with the sword, again God's judgement of justice against those who persecute his people.
"here is the patience of the saints" This is a statement which looks back at the two previous statements and says basicly, we know that God's justice will come upon those who persecute us, this knowledge is the patience of the saints, that we wait in persecution for the Justice of God to save us.

We are not to worry cause God will take care of us in the end. Trust in the Lord , justice will be served to the people that do wrong. - ok, got that one!

13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. "

this beast comes up out of the land, signifying Israel. Thus he is an israeli. He has two horns like a lamb, the lamb of course is symbolic of Jesus/messiah and horns are usualy symbolic of power or authority. Thus this tends to suggest that he has authority which appears to be like that of Jesus or of the messiah. Remember that the thing which amazed the scribes and pharisees and the people in general about Jesus was he "spoke as one who had authority". His sermons on scripture his teachings had authority which even his enemies were astonished by.
"but he spake as a dragon". Of course the dragon is symbolic of Satan (and is used just one chapter before this). This person seems to speak with the authority of the messiah, yet what he says is straight from satan. His words are the words of the devil.

An israeli coming up from the land of Israel. Well try to imitate Jesus, by speaking/teaching like him. But these are lies which are actually from the devil.....

Right?

13:12
"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. "

This second beast has obvious power of his own (which seems to be a kind of religious authority), but yet in an interesting way, he exercises the power of the first beast... in some way this second beast is backed by and empowered by the first beast (see daniel and the king who does according to his will in chapter 11:36). As a result of the 1st beast allowing the 2nd beast to exercise his power.. the 2nd beast gives glory to the first beast and causes people to worship him.
To me this suggests that the 1st beast has temporal power (politics and military) while the 2nd beast has religious authority. The 1st beast becomes the muscle allowing the 2nd beast to do whatever he wants to do.. and in return the 2nd beast uses his religious authority to glorify and deify the 1st beast giving glory to him as god.

So, they will be partners in crime?

13:13
"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, "

This speaks of the miraculous and supernatural power/authority of the 2nd beast.

these are powers given to him from the devil, right?

13:14
"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The 2nd beast by virtue of his supernatural power and miracles is able to decieve much of the world and causes them to place a statue of the first beast in the temple in Jerusalem. (the first beast is here, for the second time, referred to as having received a mortal wound (ie a death causing wound) and yet returning).

Why is the the 2nd beast trying to get the world to worship the 1st beast? I ask this cause. Seems like both of them have powers given to them by the devil. What is the purpose of giving it to both and not just one?

13:15
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

The 2nd beast is able through his sorcery to seemingly give a kind of life to the statue of the first beast which enables it to speak and to order people put to death when they don't worship it. This is very like the ancient practice under several roman emperors to test loyalty of citizens by having them sacrifice and worship his statue. Christians were often persecuted because they refused to show loyalty to the state by worshiping the emperor's statue.

ok

13:16
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: "

For some reason the 2nd beast causes everyone under his power to recieved a mark on their right hand or forhead.

This is a way of identifying everyone on earth, right? Keep a tracking system on them. Make them conform to the ideas of this beast.

13:17
"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. "

Here we see that the mark given appears to be economic in nature. No one is able to partake in commerce unless they have the mark.

A way of casting out the christians and making them all stand out?

13:18
"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six."

Many people have concluded that the mark of the beast is 666, however, thats not exactly what this says. It technicaly never says what the mark is. It says that this is the number of the beast and it is a number of a man. It is notable that 6 is the number of man. on the 6th day man was created. 6 is one less than 7 which is complete perfection. Man is in the image of God but is less than God's complete perfection. 3 of course is the number of the trinity.. so when you take 666 you have the number of man elevated to godhood.
It has been pointed out that nero caeser adds up to 666. However, there are two early church writers who state that, although there is no way of knowing for sure what the name of the beast will be (because there are many possible ways to come to 666) they both suggested that one very likely possability, in their view, would be the name Titan. These writers also commented that many people were using the wrong method of calculating name values, so one does need to be careful because there is a wrong way and a right way to calculate the name value. I don't know what the correct way is.

I'll break this post here and give my views on revelation 17 in another post

Someone told me that they thought that the internet was going to be the mark. The letter "W" is represented in the Hebrew language as number 6. Which you find in front of all web addresses....."WWW" (world wide web). I guess you are right though. There can be many possiblities of what the mark of the beast can be. It wont matter to us anyhows, right? We will be in heaven with God at this time, during the tribulation period.

Thank you so much for taking your time to explain more about this. I am not good at debating, but I have been reading your answers and trying to digest it all. Its alot to think about. Take care!

God Bless!
newbeliever

 

[Simon_Templar]

Another interesting note on 666 is that all upc barcodes contain 666, the first, middle and last number of all barcodes is 6. I'm not saying this is the mark, but it has to do with the way the laser reads and process the barcode.. so it could be something like this.

 

[novcncy]

Simon, I liked (an mostly agreed) with your explanation and logic behind the 7/8 kings. Thanks for taking the time to spell it out.