Help an atheist.. erm, Buddhist.. erm, Christian (?) out!!

[mrtsc]

I'm 17, so within the past few years I've started to make up my mind on all the important things (basically religion and politics) and have yet to have a constant position for more than a few months. I've 'been' every combination of liberal/conservative/ libertarian + atheist/Buddhist/Christian and still haven't settled on anything. It's absurd - sometimes I'm a Christian and an atheist at different parts of the same day. I'll read a column from my favorite conservative columnist (Jonah Goldberg) and be like "Yeah, of course!" and then read an article on infidels.org and be like "Yeah, obviously God is not real for all these reasons!" You have no idea how frustrating it is when you have so many changes of heart! It's especially frustrating because I don't like to think of myself as the type of person who is on both sides of every issue, so I like to attribute my 'changes of heart' to my age.

A few examples of my mental dialogues:

"Why give my whole life to a God I'm not even sure exists? I'm not supposed to touch because a cloudbeing says no?"
"Yeah, but so many people I respect believe in Him! Even people considered to be very intelligent!"
"Yeah, but look at Falwell and those guys... I don't hate gays, and all the ones I've met seem very nice... How can I respect myself while saying they shouldn't be able to get married?"

"Buddhism is so much more logical than Christianity! The Buddha even suggested his followers try out everything he said in their own lives to see what worked for them and to see the truth for themselves! By comparison, Christianity is so dogmatic and based on the supernatural!"
"But Christianity is so much more of a complete and satisfying religion!"

"The government shouldn't be able to touch our guns or make us register them... Just look at the 2nd Amendment!"
"Yeah, but times certainly were different then! You needed to have a gun ready to go fight the Brits! It was a completely different society, and certainly some safety measures and registration requirements can't hurt!"

"If we don't pay income taxes for Social Security, what will happen to the poor? I don't think private charity could do the job as well..."
"But Americans are very charitable! Plus, why should the government be involved in wealth redistribution... I want to keep most of the money I make!"

And on and on, for every possible issue. HELP ME! My prayer most nights is "God, just give me faith, cos I don't believe in you!"

What I'm asking for from anyone who read this (I'm sure you were at least somewhat amused; even I can see the humor in the situation) is some concrete suggestions. What I mean by that is please don't tell me "pray, God will change your heart soon enough" or something. Give me things to read - Bible verses, essays from converts to Christianity, essays on doubt.. anything you think would be a help to a confused adolescent!! I'd also love to hear from people who have had similar experiences!

Thanks!

 

[Amandine]

I would just like to say I'm right there with ya... My beliefs have flip-flopped strongly these past two years when I really started my spiritual search.

 

[bethdinsmore]

okay, I choose essays from converts to Christianity. (I like the way you write, by the way.)
Here's my story, short version believe it or not (long version is in "Personal Testimony" in my website).

I came to my beliefs not by a leap of faith but by the intellect. Here's how I arrived at the belief that the Bible is the absolute truth.

I was raised in a liberal "Christian" church that taught there were mistakes in the Bible. I swallowed it whole, never asking them to show me the mistakes so I could check them out for myself. Instead, I became an atheist for about 12 years. Then I made the mistake of playing the Ouija Board, and became demon oppressed. I quickly realized the reality of the supernatural world. More than that, I would pray when the strange things would happen, and they would immediately stop for a time. That proved to me that there had to be a good supernatural being who had dominance over the evil.

As I was terrified, I started searching various religions to see where the truth was. The puzzle pieces finally fell into place when I read The Late Great Planet Earth, a book on Christian Evidences about Biblical prophecy. It showed that past prophecies had been fulfilled 100% of the time, and convinced me there had to be a God guiding the writing of the Bible.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." So that verse boils down to the famous question, "Is Jesus the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic?" The accuracy of the Scriptures convinced me that Jesus is who He says He is - the Lord. In the Bible it says that the true God draws all people to Himself, and that the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, righteousness, and judgment (in other words, of the need for a Savior).
There was a Gospel invitation in the book, and I accepted Christ as my sinbearer at that point.

I have been saved for 33 years now and it just gets better with time. The God of the Bible has never, ever let me down. He has changed me profoundly, and there have been many, many miracles, both small and large (but I am not using that as proof, as many religions have miracles, though they don't have the external proofs I have mentioned).

So that's my story, friend, and I'm sticking to it.

If you are interested in fundamental Christian doctrine: I have come to realize that Christianity is a relationship, not a religion. It is unique - we do not obtain Heaven by our own good works, contrary to the beliefs of all religions. Salvation is based on Christ's goodness, not our own. . We receive eternal life when we make the decision to trust in Christ alone to pay for all our sins on the cross, (past present and future), and trust in Him to take us to Heaven one day, without any good works of our own. (Rom. 3:23, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8-9, I Peter 3:18, and John 3:16). The Bible says also that we cannot lose our salvation (see "gift" in Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 and also John 10:28-29 - we can't even take ourselves out of God's hand). The uniqueness of Christianity is that eternal life is a free gift, based on the decision of a person to trust in Christ as one’s sinbearer (without any good works of their own).

If you want to do research in Evidences, I recommend for starters:
www.rbc.org/questions/ for "Answers to Tough Questions" and click on the appropriate topic, and
www.rbc.org/ds/salvation.html and click on "Why we believe: Evidences for Christian Faith", for example
"New Evidence that demands a Verdict" is a good book on Christian Evidences.

Sometimes we are tossed to and fro as we travel in search for truth. Hope this helps friend, the journey is worth it. Home is waiting at the end.

I'll pray for you, friend. Aloha in Jesus

 

[Godless Geek]

It sound like you have already been to the right place, infidels.org. You should check out their message board, it's called Internet Infidels Discussion Board. If you are having a hard time figuring our you beliefs, I think this is the wrong place to be. Just my opinion.

 

[Lisa0315]

I'm 17, so within the past few years I've started to make up my mind on all the important things (basically religion and politics) and have yet to have a constant position for more than a few months. I've 'been' every combination of liberal/conservative/ libertarian + atheist/Buddhist/Christian and still haven't settled on anything. It's absurd - sometimes I'm a Christian and an atheist at different parts of the same day. I'll read a column from my favorite conservative columnist (Jonah Goldberg) and be like "Yeah, of course!" and then read an article on infidels.org and be like "Yeah, obviously God is not real for all these reasons!" You have no idea how frustrating it is when you have so many changes of heart! It's especially frustrating because I don't like to think of myself as the type of person who is on both sides of every issue, so I like to attribute my 'changes of heart' to my age.

A few examples of my mental dialogues:

"Why give my whole life to a God I'm not even sure exists? I'm not supposed to touch because a cloudbeing says no?"
"Yeah, but so many people I respect believe in Him! Even people considered to be very intelligent!"
"Yeah, but look at Falwell and those guys... I don't hate gays, and all the ones I've met seem very nice... How can I respect myself while saying they shouldn't be able to get married?"

"Buddhism is so much more logical than Christianity! The Buddha even suggested his followers try out everything he said in their own lives to see what worked for them and to see the truth for themselves! By comparison, Christianity is so dogmatic and based on the supernatural!"
"But Christianity is so much more of a complete and satisfying religion!"

"The government shouldn't be able to touch our guns or make us register them... Just look at the 2nd Amendment!"
"Yeah, but times certainly were different then! You needed to have a gun ready to go fight the Brits! It was a completely different society, and certainly some safety measures and registration requirements can't hurt!"

"If we don't pay income taxes for Social Security, what will happen to the poor? I don't think private charity could do the job as well..."
"But Americans are very charitable! Plus, why should the government be involved in wealth redistribution... I want to keep most of the money I make!"

And on and on, for every possible issue. HELP ME! My prayer most nights is "God, just give me faith, cos I don't believe in you!"

What I'm asking for from anyone who read this (I'm sure you were at least somewhat amused; even I can see the humor in the situation) is some concrete suggestions. What I mean by that is please don't tell me "pray, God will change your heart soon enough" or something. Give me things to read - Bible verses, essays from converts to Christianity, essays on doubt.. anything you think would be a help to a confused adolescent!! I'd also love to hear from people who have had similar experiences!

Thanks!

My!!!! You have passion! God will surely use you someday. Keep searching!

For a start, try C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. Then, read, the Gospel of John. Just my suggestions...

 

[Velo Princesse]

I've been going through the same thing. Basically, I think I believe in some version of God but I know it's only because I want to for me. What is helping me is the Unitarian Universalist church. They believe that there is value in every religion and help people find their own way. That might be a good place to go while you figure things out.

Also, if you haven't already, visit www.religioustolerance.org ... lots of good info.

 

[mrtsc]

I would just like to say I'm right there with ya... My beliefs have flip-flopped strongly these past two years when I really started my spiritual search.

If you don't mind me asking, what were your beliefs and what are they now? You don't even have to explain, I'm just wondering how your beliefs have changed.

If you want to do research in Evidences, I recommend for starters:
www.rbc.org/questions/ for "Answers to Tough Questions" and click on the appropriate topic, and
www.rbc.org/ds/salvation.html and click on "Why we believe: Evidences for Christian Faith", for example
"New Evidence that demands a Verdict" is a good book on Christian Evidences.

Thank you very much for your whole post, but particularly for that last link. It looks like it has a lot of information that I'm interested in. I bookmarked it and I'll take a look when I get home from vacation!

It sound like you have already been to the right place, infidels.org. You should check out their message board, it's called Internet Infidels Discussion Board. If you are having a hard time figuring our you beliefs, I think this is the wrong place to be. Just my opinion.

Yep, I visit IIDB from time-to-time... The thing is, though, (and this is one of the reasons I posted this question here) the intellectual level there is too high for me most of the time! A lot of references to things I haven't studied yet (which I then go on to study sometimes), to terms for certain types of language, to various things dealing with logic that I need to look up, etc. so unless I feel like doing a lot of serious reading, I tend not to go there as often as perhaps I should. And I certainly realize that posting this sort of question here I'm going to get a lot of "Don't worry, God will change your heart" type of posts that don't really serve to convince any non-believers but do show something else I'm interested in - the mindset of a faithful Christian.

My!!!! You have passion! God will surely use you someday. Keep searching!

For a start, try C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. Then, read, the Gospel of John. Just my suggestions...

I'm nothing if not passionate - it's just that what I'm passionate about seems to change like the tides! I've read MC and really enjoyed it as I read it. Made plenty of sense to me and all that. The thing is, though, when I read it I was in a "Christian mood" meaning I was coming to it as someone receptive to what Lewis was offering rather than looking critically at all his arguments. Also, are there any specific passages you can point me to in John? It's not that it's necessarily too long, it's just that I'm sure most of it doesn't specifically deal with doubt/confusion/etc.

I've been going through the same thing. Basically, I think I believe in some version of God but I know it's only because I want to for me. What is helping me is the Unitarian Universalist church. They believe that there is value in every religion and help people find their own way. That might be a good place to go while you figure things out.

Also, if you haven't already, visit www.religioustolerance.org ... lots of good info.

Yeah, it certainly seems like this is a common problem. Your second sentence resonates most with me - whenever I say "Yeah, Christianity is true!" the driving force behind the belief always seems to be my desire for Christianity to be true, rather than acceptance on its merits. Thanks for the UU suggestion, but it's never really appealed to me - it just seems like a group that believes in everything a bit, but nothing in particular, if you know what I mean. That could be way off-base, so maybe I will check it out! And I've been to www.religioustolerance.org but I've always found the layout to be really sloppy. For information about religions I usually check out wikipedia or message boards.

Thank you all!

 

[Velo Princesse]

[/font]Yeah, it certainly seems like this is a common problem. Your second sentence resonates most with me - whenever I say "Yeah, Christianity is true!" the driving force behind the belief always seems to be my desire for Christianity to be true, rather than acceptance on its merits. Thanks for the UU suggestion, but it's never really appealed to me - it just seems like a group that believes in everything a bit, but nothing in particular, if you know what I mean. That could be way off-base, so maybe I will check it out! And I've been to www.religioustolerance.org but I've always found the layout to be really sloppy. For information about religions I usually check out wikipedia or message boards.

Thank you all!

It does seem that way, but in fact there are a lot of members who believe in specific religions, but also that they can get some good stuff from others. They are just there to help you find your own way. There are Unitarian Christians, Unitarian Buddhists, ect. Anyway, you can read all that on the religious tolerance site... you can also read about basically every other religion in the world, all the way down to abscure (sp?) native American religions.

PM me with your email address if you are interested in going through this together. I'm trying to find my way also.

Randi

 

[Lisa0315]

[/font]

I'm nothing if not passionate - it's just that what I'm passionate about seems to change like the tides! I've read MC and really enjoyed it as I read it. Made plenty of sense to me and all that. The thing is, though, when I read it I was in a "Christian mood" meaning I was coming to it as someone receptive to what Lewis was offering rather than looking critically at all his arguments. Also, are there any specific passages you can point me to in John? It's not that it's necessarily too long, it's just that I'm sure most of it doesn't specifically deal with doubt/confusion/etc.

John 3, not just 16, but the entire chapter.---doubt of Nicodemus
John 4---Woman at the Well---Jesus KNEW her.
John 8---the Light of the World
John 11---Lazarus raised/Even the Pharisees convinced, but conspire to put Jesus to death rather than lose their position.
John 18---Jesus agony in the Garden...
John 19-21 Christ's salvation plan completed

 

[mrtsc]

John 3, not just 16, but the entire chapter.---doubt of Nicodemus
John 4---Woman at the Well---Jesus KNEW her.
John 8---the Light of the World
John 11---Lazarus raised/Even the Pharisees convinced, but conspire to put Jesus to death rather than lose their position.
John 18---Jesus agony in the Garden...
John 19-21 Christ's salvation plan completed

Which Bible do you prefer? I didn't bring my Bible on vacation with me, so I'll have to use one online... I've found I enjoy the Douay-Rheims the best, purely for the language.. I know it's Catholic, and I'm not sure about its accuracy, so if you have another suggestion I'll read from there! Include a link, please!

 

[Sojourner<><]

You seem to be testing the waters but then you jump out as soon as it gets a little too hot or cold. Truth doesn't change. Either you know it or you don't.

 

[Lisa0315]

Which Bible do you prefer? I didn't bring my Bible on vacation with me, so I'll have to use one online... I've found I enjoy the Douay-Rheims the best, purely for the language.. I know it's Catholic, and I'm not sure about its accuracy, so if you have another suggestion I'll read from there! Include a link, please!

I prefer KJV. I recommend www.crosswalk.com

 

[mrtsc]

You seem to be testing the waters but then you jump out as soon as it gets a little too hot or cold. Truth doesn't change. Either you know it or you don't.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. It's not as if I'm reading the Bible and then I recoil screaming "Oh, it's too true, it's too true!" Quite the opposite actually... Usually it's 'Yeah, good message, and a lot of it I follow already, but why should I believe the supernatural elements?" I'd be interested in hearing you expound on your statement a bit.

 

[Windmill]

I'm 17, so within the past few years I've started to make up my mind on all the important things (basically religion and politics) and have yet to have a constant position for more than a few months. I've 'been' every combination of liberal/conservative/ libertarian + atheist/Buddhist/Christian and still haven't settled on anything. It's absurd - sometimes I'm a Christian and an atheist at different parts of the same day. I'll read a column from my favorite conservative columnist (Jonah Goldberg) and be like "Yeah, of course!" and then read an article on infidels.org and be like "Yeah, obviously God is not real for all these reasons!" You have no idea how frustrating it is when you have so many changes of heart! It's especially frustrating because I don't like to think of myself as the type of person who is on both sides of every issue, so I like to attribute my 'changes of heart' to my age.

A few examples of my mental dialogues:

"Why give my whole life to a God I'm not even sure exists? I'm not supposed to touch because a cloudbeing says no?"
"Yeah, but so many people I respect believe in Him! Even people considered to be very intelligent!"
"Yeah, but look at Falwell and those guys... I don't hate gays, and all the ones I've met seem very nice... How can I respect myself while saying they shouldn't be able to get married?"

"Buddhism is so much more logical than Christianity! The Buddha even suggested his followers try out everything he said in their own lives to see what worked for them and to see the truth for themselves! By comparison, Christianity is so dogmatic and based on the supernatural!"
"But Christianity is so much more of a complete and satisfying religion!"

"The government shouldn't be able to touch our guns or make us register them... Just look at the 2nd Amendment!"
"Yeah, but times certainly were different then! You needed to have a gun ready to go fight the Brits! It was a completely different society, and certainly some safety measures and registration requirements can't hurt!"

"If we don't pay income taxes for Social Security, what will happen to the poor? I don't think private charity could do the job as well..."
"But Americans are very charitable! Plus, why should the government be involved in wealth redistribution... I want to keep most of the money I make!"

And on and on, for every possible issue. HELP ME! My prayer most nights is "God, just give me faith, cos I don't believe in you!"

What I'm asking for from anyone who read this (I'm sure you were at least somewhat amused; even I can see the humor in the situation) is some concrete suggestions. What I mean by that is please don't tell me "pray, God will change your heart soon enough" or something. Give me things to read - Bible verses, essays from converts to Christianity, essays on doubt.. anything you think would be a help to a confused adolescent!! I'd also love to hear from people who have had similar experiences!

Thanks!

Yeah, yeah. I'm a early teen. So I've gone through a few sort of experiences seeing both sides. The difference is I have faith, so although I see both sides, I side with the bible everytime.

Question. How do you expect God to answer your prayer... when you don't believe he's there?

What if he is talking to you but you don't realise it?

Maybe you questioning atheistic views is him speaking to you? Etc etc. But if you don't believe he exists, you'll never reconise his voice, since you won't believe its him!

Heres a question. Do you want to believe? Do you want to believe christianity? If you don't want to, you'll never be able to give your heart to it.

 

[mrtsc]

That argument has always seemed ridiculous to me, though. My prayer was asking for the faith to believe in Him, but if I believed He was actually listening, I wouldn't be asking for faith! Haha, so God really can't win that one I guess!

I don't see how me questioning my beliefs means He is talking to me. This is obviously not a great comparison by any means, but it's how your question sounds to me: "If you typically prefer pancakes for breakfast but today feel like waffles for some reason, perhaps Lord Waffle is speaking to you?"

Do I want to believe Christianity? In a way... It would provide a lot of comfort, telling me what the afterlike was like, giving me a moral code by which to live my life, etc. but just because I want to believe something doesn't mean I do, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Scholar in training]

That argument has always seemed ridiculous to me, though. My prayer was asking for the faith to believe in Him, but if I believed He was actually listening, I wouldn't be asking for faith! Haha, so God really can't win that one I guess!

Hi,

I don't think it is ridiculous to ask God for more faith. If he doesn't exist, then it is. However, if he does, then isn't it an admission that we need to rely on him? It is an act of humility. God can use the "weak" things to display his power; the Bible is full of examples where God uses our weaknesses to build us up, or to shame those who depend on their "strength" (Moses' slow speech, Gideon in Judges, and the blind man Jesus healed in John 9). If you didn't expect him to respond, then why did you pray in the first place? You're reaching out to God, which I think is a start.

 

[mrtsc]

I agree, it's not ridiculous to ask God for MORE faith, but I was asking for ANY faith! That's the point I was trying to make - I was silly to even make that prayer because I had no expectation that it would be answered. I don't think there would be a need to ask for faith if I believed God was listening!

 

[AnarKiss]

What I'm asking for from anyone who read this (I'm sure you were at least somewhat amused; even I can see the humor in the situation) is some concrete suggestions. What I mean by that is please don't tell me "pray, God will change your heart soon enough" or something. Give me things to read - Bible verses, essays from converts to Christianity, essays on doubt.. anything you think would be a help to a confused adolescent!! I'd also love to hear from people who have had similar experiences!

Thanks!

"The key to having an open mind, is, like having an open mouth, to close it on something solid"

Hey dude, I'm excited for you. I must say, when I started asking all those questions it was quite a daunting time. Until then, I was pretty sure I had all the important answers - everything was pretty black and white.

Here are a few books you might like:

Phillip Yancey - Soul Survivor: How my faith survived the church. This book gives snippets of a dozen big influences on Yancey's faith, including Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jnr, Tolstoy, Chesterton, Paul Brand etc. Quality read!

Karen Armstrong - A History of God. This book is a chunky history of the human idea of God. Mainly focusses on the three monotheistic religions, but also has some awesome insights into others as well.

Gandhi - My Experiments with Truth (An Autobiography). A kinda strangely written book, but really delving into Gandhi's exploration of God/life/meaning etc.

John Shelby Spong - Why Christianity Must Change or Die; A New Christianity for a New World. Very readable book outlining the death of the traditional Theistic Christian God, and exploring alternatives.

That's probably enough for now. Hopefully one of these will grab your eye. All the best, it's the ride of your life!

 

[AnarKiss]

Yeah, yeah. I'm a early teen. So I've gone through a few sort of experiences seeing both sides. The difference is I have faith, so although I see both sides, I side with the bible everytime.

Question. How do you expect God to answer your prayer... when you don't believe he's there?

What if he is talking to you but you don't realise it?

Maybe you questioning atheistic views is him speaking to you? Etc etc. But if you don't believe he exists, you'll never reconise his voice, since you won't believe its him!

Heres a question. Do you want to believe? Do you want to believe christianity? If you don't want to, you'll never be able to give your heart to it.

I hope you will one day realise that there are not just 2 sides - that things aren't actually as black and white as you see them now. And that a default of believing in the bible is both ignorant and dangerous.

Regarding prayer. If God is limited by whether we believe, then what sort of God is that?

Christianity isn't about wanting to believe. It is about humbly setting out on a journey into the great unknown of God. Knowing that whatever glimpses we may get of God, are but a slender and distorted view of God's reality.

If you have "given your heart to Christianity", I suggest you rescue it back. Give it to God for sure, but not a frail human institutional model of faith expression.

 

[bethdinsmore]

This thread reminds me of something. I attended Bible College in the 70s. One day in chapel there were about 1200 of us present. The speaker asked people to raise their hands if they had asked God to prove that He exists. I would say there were at least 100, my husband included. After asking the question, many of them had looked into Christian Evidences, and felt that was how God answered them. After all, He gave a book that was full of facts and prophecies that could be proven.

And why would God answer a question like that? Because He is humble and He loves each of us.

Aloha in Jesus, friend