Hell's Pop Clock

[Webers_Home]

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RE: Since death itself is abolished (2 Timothy 1:10)

The abolishment of death only applies to people who obtain immortality (2Tim 1:10, 1Cor 15:42-57)

RE: how long do you think the 2nd death will last?

There are two resurrections.

†. Dan 12:1-2 . . Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

†. John 5:28-29 . . a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out— those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

†. Rev 20:6 . . Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection— over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

I have never heard of a third resurrection; so then, those who end up victims of the second death will remain there never to return.

†. Rev 20:7-10 . . And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In that passage, the beast and the false prophet are still alive in the burning lake, where they were incarcerated in chapter 19.

†.Rev 19:20 . . And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Along with the beast and the false prophet, are an innumerable company of world citizens who received the mark.

†. Rev 14:9-11 . . And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It only stands to reason then, that if the beast and the false prophet, and the world citizens who recieved the mark are destined to suffer perpetual torture in the flaming lake, then the people to be descarded there in Rev 20:11-15 will suffer perpetual torture too.

So then, the second death is revealed by Christ to be a perpetual existence of torture in a reservoir of flaming liquid; as those passages in Revelation clearly testify.

One day, everyone will be a believer.

†. Php 2:10-11 . . That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

But it will be too late for the ones "under the earth". They must remain incarcerated in the netherworld until their court date at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15 at which time they will be brought up from below to be punished for each and every one of their sins, and afterwards, when their day in court is done; what's left of them will be incarcerated in the lake where "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night".

As frosting on the cake; the Dead will be forced to undergo infection with a special variety of heat resistant parasite that Jesus spoke of in Mark 9:43-48.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Rajni]

The abolishment of death only applies to people who obtain immortality (2Tim 1:10, 1 Cor 15:42-57)

Neither of those passages you cited make any such distinction – death
is abolished, period.

But it will be too late for the ones "under the earth". They must remain incarcerated in the netherworld until their court date at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15 at which time they will be brought up from below to be punished for each and every one of their sins, and afterwards, when their day in court is done; what's left of them will be incarcerated in the lake where "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night".

However, the day/night cycle itself doesn’t last forever (Revelation
22:5), so anything taking place during that temporary timeframe would
also have to be only temporary. Remember, the original word which
“forever” replaces (aion) does not denote endlessness, but a rather
finite age.







.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: However, the day/night cycle itself doesn’t last forever (Rev 22:5)

Darkness will cease; but light will continue.

The phrase "they have no rest day nor night" is not meant to convey cycles; but rather to convey the reality of endless torture with no let up.

RE: Remember, the original word which “forever” replaces (aion) does not denote endlessness, but a rather finite age.

What you apparently didn't know is that aion is plural in Rev 14:9-11. Here's Young's literal translation.

"And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice: If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name."

aion in the passage below is plural too.

†. Rev 1:6 . . and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen. (Young's)

You certainly wouldn't limit the Father's glory and power to just one age.

In all 13 instances in the book of Revelation where the phrase "for ever and ever" is located, aion is plural; no exceptions. So the duration of time that inmates will spend in the flaming lake isn't just one age as you've supposed, but rather, multiple ages.

Have you ever wondered why people will be perpetually punished for their sins? Well, it's just simple criminal justice. The wages of sin is death. But that's the penalty for just one sin. So then, if somebody is on trial as a serial sinner, accused of many counts of sin, how are they supposed to satisfy justice for each count?

What I mean is; say somebody stands before God accused of 235 counts of lying. The scales of justice won't balance unless each one of those lies receives the death penalty. Well how are people supposed to die 235 times since there isn't going to be any more than one resurrection per person? Get my drift? So, in order to satisfy justice, and balance the scales, serial sinners must endure a perpetual, never-ending death because to my knowledge there is no resurrection from the second death. So then, the lake will be their permanent abode because although the lake is a death penalty, it is also a life sentence with no chance of parole.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Tavita]

Tavita,


I was born and bred on a sugar cane farm in Bundaberg, Qld., so the humidity is something I have aclimatised to. But I have lived near Vancouver, Canada and in Seattle USA, as well as in Ohio & Indiana.

I lived in Bundaberg once!! I've lived in most states in Oz and also in Illinois USA for two years, I also visited Iowa and Oregon. Lived in New Guinea as a teenager too.... a looooong time ago! I wish I could have gone to Canada, it's such a beautiful place.

My youngest daughter has just returned to Mackay to work for six months as an assistant cane train driver... she loves it... she's a florist the rest of the year. She loves the humidity, but after living in Weipa I just can't take it anymore!

 

[Tavita]

Tavita,


What, then, is your interpretation of the Book of Revelation? Do you fit into the preterist, futurist, dispensational, amillennial, or another model?

Ummm.. I know I'm not a preterist, even though I do believe the last 'age', of the Law, became obsolete when the Temple and Jerusalem fell in 70AD.

I'm not sure what a futurist is, and I'm not amillennial... could be dispensational, but to tell you the truth I'm not that in to labels. Maybe it's a bit of everything, but I do believe Revelation is for NOW, for the past, and for the future...

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

 

[hikersong]

Well, that was fun. But as I'm here it would be rude not to give my definition of hell, and a calculation of how many folk will be in it (which I think was OP's point).

Hell: Being eternally stuck on a thread with C.L.I.F.F. discussing his favourite topic...erm, seemingly it's Hell.
Name of this particular hell: Webers Home
Membership: One...it's a very lonely place.

The good news for you Cliff, is that there is a whole world outside your home waiting to be enjoyed. You just need to be brave enough to step into it. Nobody's will stop you...I promise.

 

[Tavita]

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RE: However, the day/night cycle itself doesn’t last forever (Rev 22:5)

Darkness will cease; but light will continue.

The phrase "they have no rest day nor night" is not meant to convey cycles; but rather to convey the reality of endless torture with no let up.

RE: Remember, the original word which “forever” replaces (aion) does not denote endlessness, but a rather finite age.

What you apparently didn't know is that aion is plural in Rev 14:9-11. Here's Young's literal translation.

"And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice: If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name."

aion in the passage below is plural too.

†. Rev 1:6 . . and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen. (Young's)

You certainly wouldn't limit the Father's glory and power to just one age.

In all 13 instances in the book of Revelation where the phrase "for ever and ever" is located, aion is plural; no exceptions. So the duration of time that inmates will spend in the flaming lake isn't just one age as you've supposed, but rather, multiple ages.

Have you ever wondered why people will be perpetually punished for their sins? Well, it's just simple criminal justice. The wages of sin is death. But that's the penalty for just one sin. So then, if somebody is on trial as a serial sinner, accused of many counts of sin, how are they supposed to satisfy justice for each count?

What I mean is; say somebody stands before God accused of 235 counts of lying. The scales of justice won't balance unless each one of those lies receives the death penalty. Well how are people supposed to die 235 times since there isn't going to be any more than one resurrection per person? Get my drift? So, in order to satisfy justice, and balance the scales, serial sinners must endure a perpetual, never-ending death because to my knowledge there is no resurrection from the second death. So then, the lake will be their permanent abode because although the lake is a death penalty, it is also a life sentence with no chance of parole.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Yes, you're right, God is the God of the ages... and has revealed Himself as the God of the ages... plural. And that is exactly the stance that those who believe in the Restoration of ALL Things believe. He will bring all men in over the course of the ages. This is not the last age... there is still an age of Tabernacles to come, and who knows how many more after that... I'm sure God doesn't tell us everything.

btw... I don't think Chaela said there was ONLY one age...


Jesus has already paid the penalty for ALL men, that doesn't mean they get a free ticket to the Kingdom of Heaven/God... one must repent and believe in the gospel and work out their salvation with fear and trembling.. but there is not one word in the whole of the bible that says salvation is for this lifetime only. If so, could you please point it out.


Please read the Law of Moses for a scale of justice....

You are also implying that if someone steals they will receive the same punishment as someone who has raped and murdered.... if everyone goes to the lake of fire and is tortured there endlessly... where are the scales of justice? In the Law of Moses there were differing punishments for differing crimes... you have everyone receiving the exact same punishment for differing crimes. This is not God's way, and not His justice.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

You see we believe that God's judgments are for correction, for dealing with the flesh, for bringing to the fullness of Christ.. to maturity. God's judgments are not given to appease His anger or hostility towards man... that anger and hostility is not there anymore. I believe the Lake of Fire is God Himself, as it says... our God is a consuming fire.... and fire is for cleansing and purifying. Brimstone and sulphur were and are, used as purifying/healing agents.

It still gets back to understanding the scriptures 'in the Spirit'.. many are reading the bible as if everything is to be taken literaly... it's a SPIRITUAL book.

Learning the true meanings of the Greek and Hebrew words for 'punishment, eternal, forever and ever, destruction, everlasting, etc,' helps....

 

[Tavita]

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RE: John saw 'in the Spirit'... it was spiritual language describing a vision in the Spirit.. it's not meant to be taken literally!

What John was shown is as valid and reliable as a live video feed.

†. Rev 4:1 . . After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said: Come up here, and I will show you what must take place

The Great White Throne and the reservoir of flaming liquid of Rev 20:11-15, are things that "must take place".

Those of us who believe that what John saw is real, have run for our very lives to Christ for protection.

†. Heb 6:18-20 . . we may have strong encouragement, we who have fled for refuge in laying hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

If there were no literal lake of fire to fear, then there would be no motivation to flee for refuge to a priest of the order of Melchizedek. People who stayed on the beach to watch the incoming tsunami of 2004 were caught by it with no chance to escape. Had they been warned in time, they could have made a run for it to high ground and lived. You have been given a chance that they never had. I would advise you to make the most of it while there's still time.

†. Heb 3:7-8 . . Therefore, as the Holy Ghost testifies: Today (while it's called today) if you would hear His voice, do not stiffen your resolve.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

The scriptures also tell us not to harden our hearts...

You are interpreting the scriptures from a carnal mind.

We are not to come to Christ from fear, but because of His love and His great sacrifice... perfect love casts out fear...

 

[Tavita]

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RE: Do you think there is actually a 'book of Life'?

Moses thought it was real.

†. Ex 32:32-33 . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin— and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And Yhvh said unto Moses: Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

David thought it was real.

†. Ps 69:28 . . Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

John was dispatched with a letter to the church at Sardis containing a comment about the book.

†. Rev 3:5-6 . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

The book of Life is not a literal book and none of those people thought so either... you are still looking at the scriptures with a carnal mind.

The bible is full of symbols, idioms, metaphors, types, shadows, allegories, parables.. etc, etc.... they are not all meant to be taken literally.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: You are also implying that if someone steals they will receive the same punishment as someone who has raped and murdered.... if everyone goes to the lake of fire and is tortured there endlessly... where are the scales of justice?

The punishments prescribed in Moses' covenanted law are obviously not absolutes; they don't even make a dent in what people really have coming to them. Even after receiving those punishments on earth, offenders still have to face criminal justice in the hereafter.

Is the lake of fire fair? No, course not! Don't you get it? It is impossible to be fair with serial sinners because there is just no way for them to satisfy absolute justice other than Christ's crucifixion; hence the lake will be populated with sinners from all walks of every degree of sin known to man because the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) and the soul that sins; it shall die (Ezek 18:4).

The lake of flaming liquid is only the tip of the iceberg. Although it's the lost's final destination, it isn't their only punishment. Before the lost are incarcerated in the lake, they first have to stand trial at the Great White Throne.

†. Rev 20:12 . . and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

It is there when the world will finally see the horrors of God in action. According to Jesus, people have to face charges for even every idle word they ever spoke, not just their serious words.

Here's a possible scenario. This is just conjecture but I can think of no other way to get my point across. I'm sure that the justice you will see in the paragraphs below is not even close to describing what people will really get at the Great White Throne.

Supposing the penalty for a lie is 5 lashes and the accused has 200 counts of lying against them. That means that each count will receive 5 lashes, adding up to 1,000 lashes for those 200 lies. But that's only the beginning.

Suppose the penalty for using God's name in profanity is 30 lashes, and that same offender's lifetime accumulation is 500 counts of blasphemy; which isn't an unreasonable number of counts for someone who lived to be sixty or seventy. They would be given 30 lashes for each of those 500 counts; adding up to 15,000 lashes on top of the 1,000 they already received for 200 lies.

But then supposing the penalty for defamation of character is 15 lashes and that same offender, over the years— via gossip, demeaning comments, arbitrary accusations, rumor mongering, kangaroo-court convictions, and thoughtless remarks —impugned innocent reputations a total of 85 times. They would receive 15 lashes for each count, adding up to a total of 1,275 lashes. So then, for just those three crimes alone, that one offender would be given a grand total of 17,275 lashes.

It gets worse. Offenders who knew at the time that what they were doing was wrong, will be punished much more severely than those who did so uninformed.

†. Luke 12:47-48 . .And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Just exactly what God will mete for monsters the likes of Hitler and Pol Pot I can't even imagine.

In reality then, long life can be a curse rather than a blessing, and for some people, it would have been far better if they had died as a child than to face God as a senior citizen. By the time the condemned are carried out of the Bible God's courtroom to be incarcerated in the reservoir of flaming liquid, they will look as though they were dragged through a field of razor concertina wire and then dropped into a cotton gin; giving the lake the appearance of an apple-bobbing tub with all that mutilated flesh floating around in it.

It's very likely that many will not only have their flesh flayed open; but suffer a number of broken bones as well; because for some offenses, it takes way more than a whipping to set things right. I've no doubt many will have their eyes put out too, and some may have to languish in eternity with permanent paralysis, nausea, shivering, hiccups, migraines, tinnitus, vertigo, fatigue, depression, disorientation, psychosis and neurosis.

†. Isa 52:14 . . Many were amazed when they saw him— beaten and bloodied, so disfigured one would scarcely tell he was human.

If the Bible's God would let people do that kind of damage to His own kin, what do you suppose He has in store for people in this day and age who mock His son and make remarks about him? Well . . that's not too hard to figure out is it? At the very least, they will be beaten and bloodied beyond recognition, same as he was.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Rajni]

Darkness will cease; but light will continue.

The phrase "they have no rest day nor night" is not meant to convey cycles; but rather to convey the reality of endless torture with no let up.

However, if one is going to read these things literally then
one must concede that anything that is said to take place
"day and night" can only do so for as long as there
is,literally, a day and a night cycle in effect. It says "day and
night", so while some state of light will continue on, night
will not continue on, therefore that which happens while the
temporary arrangement of night is still in effect can only
itself be temporary.

What you apparently didn't know is that aion is plural in Rev 14:9-11. Here's Young's literal translation.

Which underscores the point that if "aion" were to be
understood as endless, it would not need to be plural.
“Forevers and evers” doesn’t make sense. "Ages and ages"
makes more sense, and simply means a really long (but
finite) time period.

You certainly wouldn't limit the Father's glory and power to just one age

No, absolutely not (and I couldn’t if I tried, LOL!)

God is the God of the all the ages put together, which is why
He can also be seen as the God of any single age. Saying
He’s the God of this age is not tantamount to saying He’s
not the God of that age, just as saying (for example) that
He’s the God of Abraham doesn’t mean He’s not also the
God of Isaac.

Have you ever wondered why people will be perpetually punished for their sins? Well, it's just simple criminal justice. The wages of sin is death. But that's the penalty for just one sin. So then, if somebody is on trial as a serial sinner, accused of many counts of sin, how are they supposed to satisfy justice for each count?

But if “death” were to be, by definition, endless agony in a
fiery hellhole, then Jesus – who died in our place – would be
experiencing that very thing as we speak, and forevermore.
As we know, He’s seated at the right hand of the Father and
is not experiencing endless misery in hell. So, unless you’re
saying that He died a different death than mankind dies (in
which case His sacrifice missed it’s intended target), the
penalty for sin is not death-as-in-endless-fiery-agony.

What I mean is; say somebody stands before God accused of 235 counts of lying. The scales of justice won't balance unless each one of those lies receives the death penalty. Well how are people supposed to die 235 times since there isn't going to be any more than one resurrection per person? Get my drift? So, in order to satisfy justice, and balance the scales, serial sinners must endure a perpetual, never-ending death because to my knowledge there is no resurrection from the second death. So then, the lake will be their permanent abode because although the lake is a death penalty, it is also a life sentence with no chance of parole.

I understand what you’re trying to say. However, God’s
justice was satisfied through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
So, whatever scenario one might come up with to define the
penalty for sin is moot, because the penalty has already
been paid on the cross.




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[Webers_Home]

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RE: But if “death” were to be, by definition, endless agony in a fiery hellhole, then Jesus – who died in our place – would be experiencing that very thing as we speak, and forevermore. As we know, He’s seated at the right hand of the Father and is not experiencing endless misery in hell. So, unless you’re saying that He died a different death than mankind dies (in which case His sacrifice missed it’s intended target), the penalty for sin is not death-as-in-endless-fiery-agony.

There is more than one kind of death. The lake of fire is but one of them. Additionally, the lake of fire satisfies justice for nobody. That's why people will never get out of there.

You have grossly erred by failing to fully appreciate the immeasurable value of Jesus' life. The average human life is only good for the satisfaction of justice for just one(1) sin. However, the value of Jesus' life is so far off the scale that it can easily satisfy justice for an infinite number of sins. Peter described Jesus' life's blood as "precious" which means costly. The reason it's costly is because it's value for atonement purposes is so far off the monetary scale.

†. 1Pet 1:18-19 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to rescue you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom He paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Rajni]

You have grossly erred by failing to fully appreciate the immeasurable value of Jesus' life. The average human life is only good for the satisfaction of justice for just one(1) sin. However, the value of Jesus' life is so far off the scale that it can easily satisfy justice for an infinite number of sins. Peter described Jesus' life's blood as "precious" which means costly. The reason it's costly is because it's value for atonement purposes is so far off the monetary scale.

LOL! It’s precisely because I do fully appreciate the
immeasurable value of Jesus’ life that I believe He will be
100% successful in His mission to save everybody!

Yes, there was a time I did fail at appreciating the value of
His life, which is why I used to believe that people would
end up in an eternal hell, a belief which essentially says that
God would fail in His stated mission of being the Savior of
the World. To believe in an eternal hell is to say that Jesus'
rescue mission failed to some degree. To suggest Jesus' life
and sacrifice was a failure is to not appreciate the
immeasurable value of the same.

You go on and on about how priceless Jesus’ life is (and you
are right about that ), yet you continue to preach that
Hell will prevail against Him to some degree.

If you truly believe that His atonement’s value is so off the
charts (which it is – again, you are right about that ), how
in the name of all that’s chocolate can you conclude that His
sacrifice would fall short in saving even a fraction of a single
soul?!





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[Webers_Home]

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In the very first post; I estimated 2,256 new arrivals in the fiery section of haides from all over the world every sixty minutes on the clock; which rounds out to something like 19,762,560 per year; which if projected to the end of the 21st century would eventually total roughly 1.8 billion people; and that's not factoring in all the people who have already lived and died during the past thousands of years ever since the sixth day of Genesis. That's a lot of human beings; and you have to wonder if the lower regions of the earth are sufficient to hold all those people. How will they all fit in haides?

Haides isn't subject to the known laws of physics. The fires of haides aren't natural fires; so that even with the best infrared equipment available, you couldn't detect haides' exothermic signature even if you were actually standing in it. Haides, and it's inhabitants, are totally metaphysical rather than physical; viz: the inmates in haides are spirits; and spirits can walk through natural fire as if it's not even there because to them, it isn't.

Additionally, spirits are non material beings— they don't take up any space —so that spirits can exist, and move about, inside solid rock and molten iron and lava without disturbing anything. Spirits resemble light in that light doesn't take up any room. No matter how much light you shine through a given space, there's always room for more.

A good case in point is the crazy man of Mark 5:1-13 possessed by a community of evil spirits who called themselves Legion. Webster's defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army comprising 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers with cavalry. The spirits Jesus exorcised from the man went out and possessed a herd of about 2,000 swine, so that's a pretty good example of how spirits take up no room in the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000-6,000 of those spirits managed to fit inside the bodily cargo space of just that one human being.

Just exactly how big demons are can't be known for certain. They could be no bigger than a moth; or even as large as the Jolly Green Giant— but the point is, spirits take up no room in the physical world. So that the internal regions of planet Earth have plenty of room for more and more occupants since people exist in the netherworld as spirits rather than physical mortals because their bodies stay here when they pass over to the next life. So then, all the people from around the world who died and went to haides yesterday, didn't create a housing shortage when they arrived. No, they fit in quite nicely; and there's still plenty of room left for more.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Rajni]

.
In the very first post; I estimated 2,256 new arrivals in the fiery section of haides from all over the world every sixty minutes on the clock; which rounds out to something like 19,762,560 per year; which if projected to the end of the 21st century would eventually total roughly 1.8 billion people; and that's not factoring in all the people who have already lived and died during the past thousands of years ever since the sixth day of Genesis. That's a lot of human beings; and you have to wonder if the lower regions of the earth are sufficient to hold all those people. How will they all fit in haides?

Haides isn't subject to the known laws of physics. The fires of haides aren't natural fires; so that even with the best infrared equipment available, you couldn't detect haides' exothermic signature even if you were actually standing in it. Haides, and it's inhabitants, are totally metaphysical rather than physical; viz: the inmates in haides are spirits; and spirits can walk through natural fire as if it's not even there because to them, it isn't.

Additionally, spirits are non material beings— they don't take up any space —so that spirits can exist, and move about, inside solid rock and molten iron and lava without disturbing anything. Spirits resemble light in that light doesn't take up any room. No matter how much light you shine through a given space, there's always room for more.

A good case in point is the crazy man of Mark 5:1-13 possessed by a community of evil spirits who called themselves Legion. Webster's defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army comprising 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers with cavalry. The spirits Jesus exorcised from the man went out and possessed a herd of about 2,000 swine, so that's a pretty good example of how spirits take up no room in the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000-6,000 of those spirits managed to fit inside the bodily cargo space of just that one human being.

Just exactly how big demons are can't be known for certain. They could be no bigger than a moth; or even as large as the Jolly Green Giant— but the point is, spirits take up no room in the physical world. So that the internal regions of planet Earth have plenty of room for more and more occupants since people exist in the netherworld as spirits rather than physical mortals because their bodies stay here when they pass over to the next life. So then, all the people from around the world who died and went to haides yesterday, didn't create a housing shortage when they arrived. No, they fit in quite nicely; and there's still plenty of room left for more.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

So what is this now -- are you simply returning to the glorification and
glamorization of Hell's accommodations?

Does this mean you have no response to the points previously
presented to you?

As Churchill once said, “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most
of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.”
What I'm witnessing here seems to be a case in point.







.

 

[Tavita]

So what is this now -- are you simply returning to the glorification and
glamorization of Hell's accommodations?

Does this mean you have no response to the points previously
presented to you?

As Churchill once said, “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most
of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.”
What I'm witnessing here seems to be a case in point.

I don't even know if this guy is for real anymore... he has the most extreme views of hell and damnation that I've heard in CF or elsewhere... and that's why he posts in the unorthodox forum... he's even too much for orthodoxy!

 

[OzSpen]

Chaela,

It’s precisely because I do fully appreciate the
immeasurable value of Jesus’ life that I believe He will be
100% successful in His mission to save everybody!

Where in Scripture do you find this teaching on universalism?

 

[Webers_Home]

.
RE: LOL! It’s precisely because I do fully appreciate the immeasurable value of Jesus’ life

The point is; it wasn't necessary for the Bible's Jesus to spend eternity in the flaming lake in order to satisfy justice for people who deserve to go there; he only had to die.

A normal person's life has only just enough atonement value to satisfy justice for Adam's transgression; but not enough atonement value left over to satisfy justice for their own transgressions too; and that's why nobody can escape the lake without a God-sponsored bail-out.

Jesus' voluntary death is labeled a ransom.

†. Mtt 20:28 . .The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

†. Rom 3:24 . . All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are pronounced innocent free of charge by his kindness and generosity through the ransom that came by Christ Jesus.

†. 1Tim 2:5-6 . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all

The Greek word translated ransom is lutrosis (loo'-tro-sis) and is also commonly translated "redeem" and "redemption".

Webster's defines ransom as a consideration paid and/or demanded for the release of someone or some thing from captivity. Why do people need a ransom from the wrath of God? Because, like I said, their own life is insufficient funds to bail themselves out of the flaming lake; thus, the desperate necessity of their dependence upon a God-sponsored bail-out— Jesus' crucifixion.

RE: If you truly believe that His atonement’s value is so off the charts (which it is – again, you are right about that ), how in the name of all that’s chocolate can you conclude that His sacrifice would fall short in saving even a fraction of a single soul?!

An "expert witness" can be defined as: A witness, who by virtue of education, training, skill, or experience, is believed to have knowledge in a particular subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially (and legally) rely upon the witness's specialized (scientific, technical or other) opinion about an evidence or fact issue within the scope of their expertise, referred to as the expert opinion, as an assistance to the fact-finder.

I regard God, Christ, and the authors of the New Testament, as expert witnesses in all matters pertaining to the hereafter. According to their testimony, as expert witnesses, only believers qualify for a God-sponsored ransom. Unbelievers will have to face justice at their own expense.

†. Mark 16:16 . . He that believes and is baptized shall be spared; but he that disbelieves shall be damned.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who disbelieves the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

†. John 3:16-18 . . God so cared for the world, that He donated His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be spared through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who disbelieves has been condemned already

†. 1Cor 1:21 . . it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to spare them that believe

John actually saw people being thrown into a reservoir of flaming liquid.

†. Rev 20:15 . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You and Tavita are playing a very dangerous game listing verses that seem to refute the prerequisite of belief that I just listed. Belief is not an option; no, according to the testimony of expert witnesses, belief is an essential element in God's plan of salvation. Without it, nobody is making the cut.

†. Rev 21:8 . . The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I've easily proven that aion is plural in all 13 places in the book of Revelation where the phrase "for ever and ever" appears, and actually means "the ages to the ages" so the lake's residents won't spend just one age in the lake and then be released; no, after they complete one age, they will have yet another to complete, and another, and another, et al, unto a never-ending consecutive stream of ages. And supposing there's a final age; one that never ends? Then the lake's residents will be trapped in that age like a stuck record.

Do you have a spouse? Children? Living parents? They all need to be made to understand that they're facing a very grave, imminent threat to their lives. If you continue to soft-pedal the lake of fire, leading them to believe they will get out of it some day; then you will be leaving them with a false hope, and you will be accountable for leading them to the Great White Throne like a Judas goat where they will likely not only have their flesh flayed open; but suffer a number of broken bones as well; because for some offenses, it takes way more than a whipping to set things right.

I've no doubt many will have their eyes put out, and some may have to languish in eternity with permanent paralysis, nausea, shivering, hiccups, migraines, tinnitus, vertigo, fatigue, depression, disorientation, psychosis and neurosis; not even to mention third degree burns over every square inch of the bodies. Even if they were given a chance to heal from that, the skin on their faces would have the texture and appearance of an old welding glove. Is that really the kind of future you want for your loved ones? No, of course it isn't. You want them to be happy, safe, out of the kill zone, and miles away from ground-zero.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Webers_Home]

.
RE: It’s precisely because I do fully appreciate the immeasurable value of Jesus’ life that I believe He will be 100% successful in His mission to save everybody! - - Where in Scripture do you find this teaching on universalism?

Tavita and chaela have already posted their sources in previous messages. Let's not ask them to do it all over again.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[Rajni]

Chaela,

Where in Scripture do you find this teaching on universalism?

Here's a list: Bible Verses that Support the Redemption of All Things



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