Hell's Pop Clock

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Judas goats are trained for use in slaughterhouses and herd control. In stockyards, they lead sheep to slaughter; and are also used to lead other animals to specific pens and on to trucks. The term is a reference to the biblical traitor Judas Iscariot.

The phrase has also been used to describe goats utilized to find feral goats targeted for eradication. They're usually outfitted with a transmitter, painted in red and then released. The goats then locate the remaining herds of feral goats, allowing hunters with tracking devices to exterminate them.

In some versions of the Bible, publishers insert a topic heading at Luke 16:19-31 saying it's a parable. But there are no comments nor remarks in the inspired words of the sacred text itself to indicate the passage is a symbolic narrative any more than Jesus' conflict with the Pharisees and his comments on divorce that precede it. And even if it were a parable, the story would still have to be true because no less than three real-life people are named in the drama; the homeless bum Lazurus, the patriarch Abraham, and the law-giver Moses. The name of the rich man isn't given. He's now a forgotten soul who no longer has any significance.

Anti-hell people are insistent that the drama portrayed in this passage is not a true-life story. But I just don't think Luke would make all this up; especially using the names of real-life people. Do you really think he would use the names of real people in a fable or in hyperbole? Wouldn't that create a false impression about them? If Abraham and Lazurus weren't actually in the netherworld at the time of the story, why would Luke say that they were? Wouldn't that be tantamount to falsifying inspiration?

At the time of the narrative, inmates in the fiery portion of the netherworld could look across an impassable barrier and observe life over in the comfort zone. Both sides were actually within speaking distance of one another. This scene is a peek into the ancient Greeks' concept of Hades— a netherworld warehouse containing both the wicked and the righteous. Hades appears eleven times in the New Testament, and should always be taken to indicate the netherworld rather than Hell unless the syntax clearly indicates otherwise; including Mtt 16:18 where Jesus said the gates of Hades will not prevail against his church— "gates" indicate that the netherworld is a slammer where people are securely incarcerated till further notice.

In this account, the rich man and Lazurus and Abraham, are all conscious, and all have vision, speech, thoughts, and feelings. The exact nature of the human structure with which Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man are equipped in the netherworld isn't stated; but it has to be something that's sentient because the rich man has eyesight, he has a tongue, he's thirsty, he's feeling pain and distress; and he was experiencing anxiety. (I put the rich man's concerns about his relatives in the past tense because they've since joined him by now.)

The man in flames was enduring physical suffering and he called across requesting his ancestor dispatch Lazurus over with a wet fingertip to cool his tongue because he was in torments. But Abraham rebuffed him and told him that no one is permitted to cross back and forth.

All these things are real; the man's tongue, the flames, the netherworld, Lazurus, Abraham, Moses, and the suffering of the ex rich man; who now, by the way, is a homeless bum himself. And the words they all spoke were real words, otherwise Luke would be found a false witness.

The really sad part of that story is the anxiety the condemned man felt for his relatives that they were all coming down there too and he was totally helpless to do even one single thing to prevent it. He couldn't even let them know where he was with a telegram, an email, a text message, a twitter, a blog; no, not even so much as a post card.

You know what can be even worse than going to Hell? Your own children following you there. Here's a cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess it could be.

An alcoholic farmer went out to his barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak a pull from his liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied; It was easy; I walked in your footsteps.

For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire and agony. For those families, it would have been better if the parents had been neutered rather than perpetuate generations of themselves for the furnaces of Hell.

C.L.I.F.F.
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When God created Man, he came into the world as an organic corpse; and didn't become a me— viz: a sentient being —until God infused the corpse with human life.

†. Gen 2:7 . .The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the spirit of life, and the man became a living being.

Neuroscience— the scientific attempt to deduce how the brain works —has succeeded in unraveling critical chemical and electrical pathways involved in memory, movement and emotion. But reducing the perceptions of a John Coltrane solo, or the palette of a Hawaiian sunset, to a series of interactions among axons, neurotransmitters and dendrites still fails to explain what makes an event special.

To this good day, after years of intensive research, science is still nowhere near an understanding of the nature of consciousness. Exactly how the human brain makes everyone behave so similarly at times, while endowing each individual with a unique and irreproducible existence, is yet a total mystery. Solving that mystery might require another century of study, and some neuroscientists and philosophers believe that comprehension of what makes you the me that you are; may always remain unknowable.

Some people believe the consciousness dies with the body; even some professing Christian believe that because of something Solomon said in his philosophical musings.

†. Ecc 9:10 . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the netherworld; where you are going.

Nothing in that passage suggests that man's thought processes stop when he dies; it only states the obvious: the netherworld is nothing like life topside. It's a boring, mind-numbing existence. There's nothing to do and there's nothing to learn.

Nobel Prize winner, author of several best-selling books, and recipient of at least a dozen honorary degrees, Physicist Steven Weinberg (who views religion as an enemy of science), in his book, The First Three Minutes, wrote: The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it seems pointless. But if there is no solace in the fruits of our research, there is at least some consolation in the research itself . .The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things that lifts human life a little above the level of a farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy.

If learning is the only justification for human existence that Mr. Weinberg can find in this life, then he is certain to feel smothered in the shroud of absolute futility in the Bible's hell.

†. Ps 146:3-4 . . Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

There is nothing in that passage to suggest that man's thought processes stop when he crosses over to the other side. The Old Testament Hebrew word for thoughts in that passage is `eshtonah (esh-to-naw') which actually indicates the contents of a man's thoughts rather than his mind's cognitive activity. For example "A penny for your thoughts" is not a tender offer to purchase your mind, but rather, to purchase a glimpse at what's on your mind at the moment.

Here's another version of Psalm 146:4

†. Ps 146:4 . .When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

A while back, real estate magnate Donald Trump was working on a scheme to turn sand dunes at the Menie Estate, 15 miles north of Aberdeen in eastern Scotland, into a two-billion dollar golf resort complete with two 18-hole courses, a 450-room hotel, 950 vacation homes, 36 golf villas and 500 upscale homes. If Mr. Trump had passed away back then, his wishes for that golf course would have perished with him.

Worldly people believe only what they can see for themselves as a creature in touch with its natural environment. There is a preponderance of evidence in the Bible that the me that I am is detachable, and can exist beyond death sans an organic human body because my sentience came from God rather than from the dust of the ground like my body did.

As if it isn't bad enough that people are suffering in Hell in a perpetual state of torment, they're enduring it as their selves; ergo: they are never going to be free from who they are. What I'm talking about here is not the who that we are in our physical appearances, but the "me" that we are in our psyches; viz: its consciousness, its feelings, its impulses, its appetites, its phobias, its hang-ups, its attitudes, its inhibitions, its emotions, its tendencies, its propensities, its reactions, its passions, its ego, its memories, and its inclinations.

Hell is even more of a hell than you might think because people take who they are right along with them down there. Thus; suicide is not a good way to relieve depression. Depressed people take that depression right along with them to the other side; and their sorrow will be even more intensified in fire when they realize that as bad as things were up here on the surface, their situation up here wasn't nearly as bad as their situation is down below in the netherworld.

People can escape poor health via death, they can escape credit card debt, they can escape an abusive spouse and in-laws from hell; they can escape taxes, they can escape a physical handicap, they can escape pimples, and they can escape the Mafioso; but they cannot escape themselves. Without undergoing a second birth that Jesus spoke of at John 3:3-8, you, and the you that you are now, will remain joined at the hip . . forever, and ever, and ever.

Note: The book of Ecclesiastes is a very poor source of revelation because it's actually not a book of spiritual wisdom, but of worldly wisdom, written from the point of view of man "under the sun" --earthly man rather than man enlightened by God's Spirit. It's no surprise then that Ecclesiastes has such wide appeal, even among atheists and intellectuals.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Tavita]

Just What the Hell is "Hell?"

By Gary Amirault
There once was a time, 'twas plain to see
Just what the hell, Hell was meant to be.
But then theologians got into the act
And Hell no longer was a simple fact.


Hell formerly was a dark hidden space
Imperceivable, covered, a true hiding place.
It could be a place, as crude as a shed
Or could be a helmet, to cover your head.

Smoochers and kissers oft needed a hell
For hidden in darkness, no one could tell.
Hall, hole, and hull come from the same root
Along with a heel covered with a boot.

"Too simple!" So theologians once said
And now from their scheming, confusion has spread.
They hired the Dantes and Michaelangelos
To paint pretty pictures of many great woes


Fire and torment, with much superstition
Was added to pagan mythology and fiction.
The Goddess of Hel from Norse mythology
Became Satan, hero of most eschatology.

Jesus the Savior, delivered mankind
He came not for few, but for ALL men to find.
His portion became a rather small lot
While most of mankind, in Hell-fire would rot.

The way to this Hell became broad and wide
The gift of God's grace was at its low tide.
Clothes, creeds and days, the right denomination
Became the sole means, the way to salvation.

Gehenna, Hades, Tartaroo, and Sheol
All became places that could swallow your soul.
Preachers now had us, right where they wanted
"Obey or to Hell with you" they often taunted.

Countless denominations of devilish preachers
Forsook the Gift and became Satan's teachers.
Thousands of ways of deliverance from "Hell"
In common they all have a self-righteous smell.

"Finished" He cried, "I will draw all mankind"
The Father's desire, "all saved" in His mind.
The task He was given, He accomplished it all
And as His witness, He commissioned St. Paul.

Paul's Gospel was different, it's easy to tell
Because never once did he use the word "hell."
So "hell" is no more, it's becoming a bore
It's taking its place along with common folklore.

Punish he will, for our Father is just
In age-long correction, you surely can trust.
On vindictive torment our Father's not bent
Mercy will, yes! triumph over judgment. ​

 

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I know of the Protestant pastor who was asked by Audie Murphy's widow Pamela to speak at her husband's funeral. Audie Murphy, as you may already know, was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Shriner; but he wasn't a Christian.

In amazement, the pastor asked Mrs. Murphy why she chose a Christian to speak at her husband's funeral. Though Audie himself wasn't a Christian, his widow was; and she explained that the Hollywood crowd would be there the day of his funeral, and having hob-nobbed with them during her husband's acting career, she was fully aware that many of them rarely listened to something on the afterlife related to Jesus' crucifixion. Well . . that day they did, and were very annoyed because they were expecting the usual sappy, feel-good kind of liberal bombast to which pampered celebrities are accustomed.

†. Ecc 7:4 . . The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

Some may feel that Hell and eternal suffering aren't appropriate topics at a funeral. But I think that, other than Xmas and Easter, you couldn't pick a better time to bring them up, especially since Jesus said that the majority of the human race is ending up there (Mtt 7:13-14, Mtt 22:14).

†. Ecc 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this seriously.

As I watched some of the splendor and pomp of President Gerald Ford's funeral back in January of 2007, I couldn't help but wonder if he was in a position to really appreciate it; as I suspect people in Hell would certainly no longer really care anymore whether they were given an unknown pauper's disposal in a City incinerator, or reverently placed in a grand tomb in the National Cemetery with world-wide television coverage.

C.L.I.F.F.
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FAQ: Why was Jesus' crucifixion a must? Surely the Bible's God is powerful enough that He could just pardon everyone instead of putting His son through all that grief and/or locking people away in a useless oven.

The fact of the matter is; the Bible's God is stuck with Hell just as much as His creations because He's a slave to absolutes. If Hell wasn't the right thing to do; you can bet a loving God would find a far more humane way to deal with evil. But the Bible's God is a jurist of impeccable integrity. In a system of absolutes; justice can't be ignored; no, it has to be satisfied, and the Bible's God can't let Himself out of that without seriously compromising His integrity; so God is forced to inter sinners in Hell even though He takes no pleasure in it.

†. Ezek 18:23 . . Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

†. 1Tim 2:3-4 . . God our savior, who wants all men spared, and come to a knowledge of the truth.

FAQ: But it's ridiculous to say that God is a slave to absolutes. Simply by virtue of being the very God who authored His own law; The Almighty is above it.

That objector is suggesting that the Bible's God has a double standard— one for Himself, and one for His creatures. In other words: Do as I say do, but don't do as I do. That is hypocrisy of the worst sort; which Christ clearly condemned. (Mtt 23:2-4)

Webster's defines just as: 1) acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good; viz: righteous, and 2) legally correct; viz: lawful

I think a good many people are somehow under the impression that the Bible's God is unjust— that He sweeps transgressions under the rug and lets bygones be bygones. No, that's a miscarriage of justice; which is not an accurate picture of the Bible's God at all. The very reason that His own son had to endure crucifixion is because justice had to satisfied in order to permit God to extend mercy to anybody; even to the great personages in the Old Testament.

†. Isa 53:5-6 . . he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Yhvh hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

†. Isa 53:11-12 . .When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins.

†. Rom 3:24-26 . . God, out of kindness, pronounces us not guilty through the ransom that's in Christ Jesus: whom God purposed to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to justify His tolerance of sins in past eras, His self-restraint; and to declare, I say, at this time, His own justification: that He might be shown equitable and right in acquitting those who believe in Jesus.

FAQ: I do not see the justice in infinite punishment for finite mistakes.

Well; of course that objector doesn't see the justice in infinite punishment for finite mistakes because their sense of justice is a product of the 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue housed in their bony little skull. In that respect, they have no more sense of justice relative to God's sense of justice than a bunny rabbit. But don't even think about mitigating your sins as mistakes. That is a politician's cop-out; and won't fly in Heaven's justice system.

The source of a law is what gives it a measure of dignity. Take for instance a group of boys who build a tree house for a boys' club. They elect officers from among themselves, and draw up a charter of rules that members of the club have to observe in order to remain in good standing as honorable club members. Would their charter stand up in an adult court of law? No, of course not. Their charter would merit very little respect in the adult world because the source was just a posse of kids.

You can extend the principle of "source" out into the world of municipal law, state law, and federal law. At each level, the law's dignity increases, and breaking it at each succeeding level becomes that much more serious. Divine law is the ultimate charter; and it's rules, regulations, statutes, directives, precedents, and mandates deserve far more respect than a tree house, or a municipality, or a state, or a federal government because the source of holy law is Almighty God— The Creator —whose dignity is off the scale and far exceeds that of His creations, and that's why it's so serious to go against Him.

In reality then, Hell vindicates God's dignity. You see, it's one thing to be hauled before a judge for spitting on somebody's car; but it's quite another to be hauled before a judge for spitting on the judge's car.

Seen from that angle; Hell isn't punishment enough for people who defy God because there just isn't any other way for them to personally make amends for their contempt except by paying for it forever since the degree of God's dignity is off the scale, and far beyond the limits of time and distance. The only substitute God will accept in lieu of eternal suffering is the life's blood of His own kin. (1Pet 1:18-19) People who reject that, simply have to expect to end up in The Lord's refuse disposal area.

FAQ: But I feel special; God understands me and He knows I'm only human. Although God probably may not let others off; I'm sure He will make an exception for me because I'm not like other people; I'm different.

Unfortunately, the Bible's God can't do that. If He were to make an exception for you, God would be neither equitable, nor honest— and worse, it would go against His grain, compromise His integrity, violate His conscience; and cause Him to lose the world's respect. No, God doesn't grade on a curve: everyone is treated equally in God's courtroom. In a system of absolutes; there are no exceptions, nobody gets any favors, and nobody is special.

†. Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be anguish and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning— for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good —for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

C.L.I.F.F.
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The human race is divided into two distinctly different categories: the Living, and the Dead (Acts 10:42, 2Tim 4:1, 1Pet 4:5) and their respective judgments take place at two distinctly different times and locations. Below is a description of the Dead's judgment; and I should point out that what you are about to read is not a prediction. No, John actually saw this horrific event with his own eyes; like viewing a live video feed from the future.

†. Rev 20:11-15 . . And I saw a Great White Throne, and I saw the one who was sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from His presence, but they found no place to hide. I saw the Dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the Dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done.

. . The sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the netherworld gave up the dead in them. They were all judged according to their deeds. And death and the netherworld were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the reservoir of flaming liquid.

The Dead are mentioned four times in that video feed; the Living are not mentioned at all. The reason is; the Living won't stand trial at the Great White Throne because their judgment takes place on Calvary.

†. Rom 6:3 . .Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

†. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

†. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

†. Col 3:1-4 . . For you died when Christ died

The Living have the distinction of being the only people on earth who are in the right-now possession of eternal life and will never again be in danger of the Great White Throne.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already transferred from Death into Life.

So then: it goes without saying that the book of life of Rev 20:15 is a registry of the Living; while those whose names are not in the book of life are the Dead. Ergo: no one who stands trial at the Great White Throne goes to Heaven; no, not even one.

The lake of fire is a second death which is different than the first time around in that our first is relatively brief. The human body begins to die at right around age 32 and then gradually debilitates till finally it just quits working; while the second is a living death that has no end. For some strange reason, that I have yet to understand, The Lord can't just annihilate people out of existence. I think it has something to do with the source of Man's life. Though his body was manufactured from earthly elements, and will dissolve back into earthly elements, Man's life is in the image and likeness of God; and came from the breath of God (Gen 2:7). Whether that has anything to do with eternal suffering or not I don't know, but there must be a legitimate reason for it in there somewhere.

As I see Rev 20:15, the Dead won't be slow roasted, but rather, simmered by total bodily immersion in a flaming liquid; which will of course result in third degree burns over every square inch of their entire body. The first to go will be their hair, then their extremities (which in the case of women would include their breasts, and in the case of men, their privates) then all the rest.

Fortunately, third degree burns don't really hurt all that much because the meat is cooked deep enough in third degree burns to destroy nerve endings. But still, if say, if a piece of work like Halle Berry is among the Dead, she will have to lose her gorgeous figure yet one more time via a horribly disfiguring mode of death akin to burning at the stake. The lake of fire will be a terrible heartbreak for the beautiful people.

The same reservoir is spoken of in Rev 19:20 as punishment for the Beast and the false prophet; and of everyone who receives the Beast's mark and worships his image. The same reservoir is also spoken of in Rev 20:10 as punishment for the Devil, and as a location where torment for him, and the Beast, and the false prophet never ends. The same reservoir is again spoken of in Rev 21:8 as the expectation of the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and the promiscuous, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars.

Two distinctly separate Greek words are used regarding the Dead in Rev 20:11-15. One is nekros (nek-ros'); which can either refer to a corpse, and/or to something that is intrinsically dead; e.g. a burned out light bulb. The other is thanatos (than'-at-os); which means death as a noun adjective.

The words nekros and thanatos are used in interesting combinations. John saw the sea give up its dead, and death and the netherworld give up their dead. In this event, I think it's safe to assume "sea" is not the ocean, but rather, represents the masses of non deceased humanity who are still alive when the Throne is set, and "death and the netherworld" refer to the people who are deceased at the time the Throne is set. Curiously, both the deceased and the non deceased are classified as "dead" and that's because neither group has eternal life; no, they have only human life; which is a dead kind of life in that it's neither self-sustaining nor perpetually vigorous like the life of God.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Tavita]

Why are you posting all this orthodox teaching down here in the unorthodox section? Do you think by all this you will convert us 'back' to what you perceive to be the truth? What is your point in preaching this horrific god of yours here?

Most of us had been in the orthodox church believing all the above for many years until the Holy Spirit gave us ears to hear and eyes to see. Why not take your teaching to the orthodox section...

 

[Webers_Home]

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FAQ: Do you consider animals to be unbelievers? And if so, will they go to Hell?

Yes, animals are unbelievers. However, animals are not registered in The Bible as sinful beings, nor were they created in the image and likeness of the Bible's God, nor does there exist a biblical record of the Bible's God forbidding the animal kingdom from eating the forbidden fruit. It's very likely that Eve saw that the fruit was good for food (Gen 3:6) by observing birds and animals foraging it with no apparent ill side effects.

The animal kingdom is a much, much lower order of sentient life than human beings so their accountability is not on the same scale as human beings. The one exception is in cases where an animal has taken a human life (Gen 9:4-6, Ex 21:8). But even then, the animal is in no danger of eternal suffering for it's "crime". And it's well to remember that the death penalty is not an eo ipso guarantee the offender will go to Hell afterwards. Once the offender who died the day Jesus was crucified passed out of this world, he transferred to a place Jesus labeled paradise (Luke 23:39-43).

The Greek word for a burning Hell in the New Testament is geena. Of the twelve times it's used, eleven were by the New Testament's Jesus. In not one of those eleven instances did he ever threaten animals with geena; only his fellow men.

There is a principle in the Old Testament regarding kinsman redeemers (e.g. Boaz of the book of Ruth). The kinsman principle applies to the overall plan of salvation (Heb 2:16-18). In order for the animals to be rescued from the wrath of God (if indeed they were in danger of it) it would be necessary for one of their own kind to give its life for the others of its own kind because the Bible's Christ gave his life for his fellow human beings; not for animal beings. Do you know how many different species of animal life there are? Me neither, but it's a lot; and would require a very large number of crosses to accommodate them.

When Jesus spoke the words below, his target audience was human beings; not animal beings.

†. John 3:16-18 . . For God was so concerned for the world that He donated His one and only son, that whoever relies upon him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to rescue the world through him. Whoever relies upon him is not condemned, but whoever does not stands condemned already because he has not relied upon the name of God's one and only son.

When people exist in a state of unbelief by reason of the fact that they have yet to hear the Gospel and make an informed decision; they have no excuse. They are at a disadvantage, yes, I fully agree, nevertheless, they still exist in a condition of unbelief and an already-condemned status just as surely as the snake-bitten Jews who died before being given an opportunity to look to the metallic viper Moses was ordered to construct in Num 21:5-9.

†. John 3:14-15 . . As Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who relies upon him may have eternal life.

The judicial aspects of Bible Christianity are terrifying and that's why the New Testament Greek word for save means to rescue. People are already on their way to Hell prior to an exposure to the Gospel because that's everyone's default destiny.

So when people leave this life before being given an opportunity to hear about Christ, all I can say is: that's just the way the cookie crumbles— so thank, and praise, and kiss the Bible God's feet and toes that the Judeo/Christian scriptures are readily available in practically every bookstore throughout the free world. And for the illiterate souls in third word countries, there are missionaries trying to get word to them before it's too late.

The animals have nothing to fear in the way of justice and eternal suffering; but then, they may not have a future anyway. When God created Man, he was created a solo specimen. When God created the animal kingdom, he made them in swarms. Man is an animal, yes, but he is a very special animal: one with a God-consciousness and a sense of right and wrong. There is no right and wrong in the animal world. Theirs is a world of survival, and little else.

What humans might label as "crime" in the animal world, is just business as usual for them. When a Mako shark kills an octopus, it's not committing a murder; no, it's just getting something to eat. When dogs breed with multiple partners, they aren't committing adultery; no, they're just insuring the survival of their species. Man can, and often does, live like an animal; but just because it's okay for an animal to live like an animal does not make living like an animal okay for humans. Man was called to a higher plane: the plane of God rather than the plane of a beast; and when Man goes bad, he doesn't suffer the fate of a bad animal, no, he suffers the fate of a bad God.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[OzSpen]

CLIFF,

Why are you boring us with your going on and on about orthodoxy and not engaging in conversation with us?

What Tavita has said is all too true:

<<Why are you posting all this orthodox teaching down here in the unorthodox section? Do you think by all this you will convert us 'back' to what you perceive to be the truth? What is your point in preaching this horrific god of yours here?
​

Most of us had been in the orthodox church believing all the above for many years until the Holy Spirit gave us ears to hear and eyes to see. Why not take your teaching to the orthodox section...>>
​

I'm an orthodox believer, but when you won't engage in conversation, what are you trying to do?

 

[Webers_Home]

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There are basically two main camps of interpretation within Christianity concerning the afterlife. One holds the traditional view that human beings continue to exist after the death of the physical body. The second opinion promotes extinction: the complete cessation of existence.

The Watchtower Society has convinced its Jehovah's Witnesses that there is no conscious existence after people die. Some of their proofs are taken from the book of Ecclesiastes; which is a poor choice for proof texts regarding life after death because Ecclesiastes is different from many of the other books in the Bible. Although it was written by a holy man, and no doubt written by inspiration of God, the author didn't write it to reveal divine truth. No, not at all. He wrote Ecclesiastes from the point of view of a man "under the sun" viz: the earthly, physical man, who only knows what he observes in nature— the tabernacle of empirical evidence —as opposed to the spiritual man whose mind has been enlightened by divine revelation in order to see and understand the things that cannot be observed in the natural world.

Ecclesiastes is a wisdom book alright; but it's not a book of divine wisdom. Ecclesiastes is chock full of worldly wisdom, and it's very pessimistic. You get the feeling that life is a futile exercise ended by a death that's hardly any different than a dog's; which would make people really no better off then one. In that respect, even a mangy hyena that's still alive is superior to the corpse of a majestic Lion king. To the worldly, sensual man, to the pragmatic agnostic man— a man like Ernest Hemingway for example —death ends it all; and for people like that, suicide is a sensible option.

†. Ecc 9:9-10 . . Live happily with the woman you love through all the meaningless days of life that God has given you in this world. The wife God gives you is your reward for all your earthly toil. Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the netherworld, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

†. Ps 146:3-4 . . Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

People who don't understand the Bible have attempted to use those verses to prove human beings' thought processes stop after the death of their mortal bodies. But that point of view ignorantly sweeps aside many of the Bible's revelations regarding people who are alive on the other side right this very moment.

Those passages in Ecc 9:9-10, and Ps 146:3-4 reinforce what Jesus taught about the rich man in Luke 12:15-20. Human beings are very fragile. In a moment, whatever plans, goals, and ambitions they hold for themselves in life (not their thinking processes), instantly dissolve into thin air the very moment they die. All the cares and concerns they have when they wake in the morning, mean nothing if they don't make it to the end of the day.

Consider all those people who perished in the World Trade Center on 9/11 and the Tsunami of 2004. None of them woke that day planning on their deaths. No, on the contrary; they had people to see, places to go, and things to do: but before the day ended; whatever they had planned for themselves was put on terminal hold forever.

Incidentally, Ecc 9:9-10 suggests that the netherworld can be a very boring place.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[OzSpen]

Cliff,

You are continuing not to interact with us. You are dumping your views on us without engaging in conversation. I urge you to become a Christian communicator.

I am a committed evangelical Christian believer, but what you are doing is not conducive to healthy conversation on this Forum.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
It often comes as a surprise to Bible students that there is no specific mention of a fiery netherworld in the Old Testament&#8212; the record merely buries the dead and sends them to a nondescript afterlife location (e.g. Isa 14:5-11). Not until the advent of the Prince Of Peace does the Bible announce the horror of afterlife justice and torturing the dead. That's not to say that the Old Testament's prophets didn't know about a fiery netherworld; it really only means they didn't write about it.

The New Testament says that the Gospel was preached to Old Testament personages as well as New; though the words of the Gospel, that was preached in those days, are not recorded in Old Testament scripture (Heb 4:2, 1Pet 3:18-20).

The most common Old Testament Hebrew words for the afterlife are she'owl (sheh-ole') and sheol (sheh-ole'); which are the equivalents of the New Testament Greek word haides; viz: the netherworld; which isn't specifically a fiery location; but rather, the overall unseen world of the dead in general, where people who once lived as physical human beings now reside in spirit form. The New Testament reveals that the netherworld consists of two compartments: a comfort zone and a discomfort zone (Luke 16:19-31).

Some translations render sheol as the grave; a place to inter a corpse. But rendering sheol as "grave" is arbitrary rather than precise. The correct Hebrew word for grave is qibrah (kib-raw'), which means grave, burying place, and/or sepulcher (e.g. Gen 23:4). Qibrah is the equivalent of the New Testament Greek word mnemeion (mnay-mi'-on) which means: a remembrance, i.e. cenotaph (place of interment); viz: grave, sepulcher, tomb (e.g. Mtt 27:60). So then, qibrah houses dead bodies, while sheol houses the spirits of the people who at one time occupied those dead bodies.

Sheol is a controversial word. Not every version of the Bible translates it into an English word. Some just let it go as is and leave it to the reader to decide for themselves what they think it might mean. But one thing about the word sheol that has to be accepted is that it is not specifically a burning Hell; no, it is just a word indicating the netherworld in general.

An outstanding Old Testament example of sheol being the netherworld is Jonah. When he drowned, Jonah went to Sheol (Jon 2:2), a place that he described as "the bottoms of the mountains" (Jon 2:6).

Jonah also made the comment that "the earth with her bars was about me for ever". But you see, the only way that Jonah could have been at the bottoms of the mountains, with the earth about him, while at the same time his body lay in the belly of a fish, would be for his spirit to separate from his body and go its own way.

Some people refuse to believe Jonah was dead inside the fish. But Jesus compared his own experiences to Jonah's (Mtt 12:40). Was Jesus dead? Yes. Was Jesus interred in a grave? Yes. Did Jesus go to the heart of the earth? Yes. Did Jesus rise from the dead within three days and nights? Yes. Then all four of those circumstances happened to Jonah too because "as Jonah was . . so shall the Son of man be."

Objection: A fish isn't a grave.

It was for Jonah; and not just him; Davy Jones' locker suffices for lots of graves.

The question then becomes; When did Jonah rise from dead? When the fish vomited him up on shore? No. Jonah's second prayer was prayed from inside the fish just before it spit him up. And if you recall, Jesus was already gone when the Angel rolled aside the stone sealing his tomb (Mtt 28:2-6). So that Jesus too rose from the dead while still inside a grave. So then, in all major points, Jesus' experience replicated Jonah's; including the fact that neither man's body experienced decay (Jon 2:6, Acts 2:25-31).

Jonah prayed twice; once while in Sheol, and once while in the fish's belly (Jon 2:1-9). Upon close examination it's easily seen that the bulk of Jonah's prayer from within the fish's tummy recounts a previous prayer he prayed while in the netherworld.

Actually, the lesson to be learned from Jonah's deep-sea experience is not so much that of a fish swallowing a man; but rather, that of a man rising from the dead.

Objection: The heart of the earth is far below the bottoms of the mountains.

How big is the earth's heart? Is it the precise geometric center, or is it simply any place within the volume of area below its surface; viz: the interior? The Greek word for "heart" is kardia (kar-dee'-ah) and is used in a great number of places including, but not limited to Mtt 6:21 . . For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

The Bible doesn't say how far down Jonah was. But regardless of how one defines the heart of the earth, Jonah was at the bottoms of the mountains; which is at the very least below the flat surface, and certainly below the earth's tectonic plates. Being in a fish, Jonah's body wouldn't have been below mountains; it would have been below ocean waves: it wouldn't even have been below any soil at all, let alone mountains.

Incidentally, the Lord was buried above-ground, in a rock hewn tomb; so when Christ said he would be in the heart of the earth at Mtt 12:40, he was obviously referring to some other part of himself than his corpse. While Jesus' body languished in the tomb; his soul went to haides (Acts 2:25-31).

Was Jesus conscious in haides? Jonah was (Jon 2:2-7) and Abraham was (Luke 16:19-31). Why would the Lord's sojourn in haides be any different?

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[2ducklow]

Nobody reads your posts cliff. you got to talk to people for them to read what you say.

 

[Tavita]

.
It often comes as a surprise to Bible students that there is no specific mention of a fiery netherworld in the Old Testament— the record merely buries the dead and sends them to a nondescript afterlife location (e.g. Isa 14:5-11). Not until the advent of the Prince Of Peace does the Bible announce the horror of afterlife justice and torturing the dead. That's not to say that the Old Testament's prophets didn't know about a fiery netherworld; it really only means they didn't write about it.
/

"Not until the advent of the Prince Of Peace does the Bible announce the horror of afterlife justice and torturing the dead. "


Good grief!!

That sure sounds like the Prince of Peace! That really sounds like the 'Good News'! That sure sounds like the Shepherds heart of the Christ who comes to find the 1 that is lost....

What it does do is show the wicked heart of man... to ascribe this to Him! Such blasphemy!

 

[Tavita]

Nobody reads your posts cliff. you got to talk to people for them to read what you say.

I usually just scan the first and last paragraph... and then just basically talk to myself....

 

[OzSpen]

Cliff,

Why did you make such a derogatory and false statement against me in a private message?

Sincerely,
Spencer

 

[Tavita]

Cliff,

Why did you make such a derogatory and false statement against me in a private message?

Sincerely,
Spencer

He did the same to me, OzSpen, but I thanked him for blessing me...

 

[Webers_Home]

.
&#8224;. Num 16:25-34 . . Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. He warned the assembly: Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins. So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.

. . And Moses said: By this you shall know that Yhvh hath sent me to do all things that you see, and that I have not forged them of my own head: If these men die the common death of men, and if they be visited with a plague, wherewith others also are wont to be visited, Yhvh did not send me. But if Yhvh do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into the netherworld, you shall know that they have blasphemed Yhvh.

. . And immediately as he had made an end of speaking, the earth broke asunder under their feet: and opening her mouth, devoured them with their tents and all their substance. And they went down alive into the netherworld, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people. But all Israel, that was standing round about, fled at the shrieks of them that were perishing: saying: Lest perhaps the earth swallow us up also.

When that fissure in the earth closed over those families, the rumble it made signaled a terrifying finality. You just knew they were not coming back. That horrific scene would have to rate high on the list of your worst nightmares. According to Num 16:27, the earth swallowed minor children alive too.

Bible passages like that one are very handy for setting people straight about the love of God. Scores of children drowned in the Flood, more children were incinerated in Sodom and Gomorrah; and vast numbers of children will die by the future calamities in the book of Revelation. Since the Bible's God obviously executes minors right along with their parents, and makes no apology for doing so; then is it really so unreasonable to expect that the Bible's God is busy over Xmas and holidays with adults from all over the world who die on those days; casting them into a burning Hell? I seriously doubt that the Bible's God takes a break on Xmas, nor really gives two cents about any other day of the year for that matter. People for Hell go to Hell on Easter and Birthdays too.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[OzSpen]

Cliff,

Why aren't you answering our questions?

 

[OzSpen]

Tavita,

I notice that you live in Canberra. I used to live in Stirling in the early 1990s but have moved to the warmer climes of Hervey Bay, Qld.