Hell's Pop Clock

Webers_Home · May 24, 2009

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Since beginning this topic on May 5, 2009, eighteen days have gone by, not counting today. Using my original figure of 2,448 condemned Americans per day, a total of 44,064 Americans have been added to the population count of Hell since beginning the topic.

Using my original figure of 2,256 worldwide additions per every sixty minutes on the clock, roughly 974,592 souls were shoveled to the flames in the same period. Kind of makes US casualties in the mid-east look pretty insignificant; doesn't it?

†. Isa 40:6 . . The voice said; Cry! And he said, What shall I cry? "All flesh is grass"

BTW: Supposing my figures are way off and only half of those went to Hell. Even at that, 22,032 and 487,296 are pretty respectable numbers.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Webers_Home · May 24, 2009

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. Luk 16:25 . . Abraham said to him; Son, remember . . during your lifetime you had everything you wanted

Abraham addressed the once-rich man as "son" indicating that the condemned man is one of Abraham's own Jewish posterity. Whether by birth, or by conversion, or by adoption isn't stated.

This is one of those instances cf. Cain and Abel that demonstrates one's ancestry can't protect them from the wrath of God. Regardless of whether one is the child of an Abraham or of a Billy Graham or of a Robert Schuller, they can still go to Hell because one's ancestry does not mitigate their own personal accountability. If anything, privilege actually multiplies accountability.

. Amos 3:1-2 . . Hear this word which Yhvh has spoken against you, sons of Israel; against the entire family which He brought up from the land of Egypt. "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."

I should think that one of the worst aspects of Hell is memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich man is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.

. Luk 16:24 . .The rich man shouted; Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.

The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those memories haunt us with terrible regret. Thanks to the benefits of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection; I myself will not have to cope with bad memories in Heaven.

. Rev 7:17 . . For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

However, the people in Hell not only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and I should think it is remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that makes their situation only worse in the heat.

They say it is better to have loved and lost, rather than not to have loved at all. I disagree. I believe it is far better to not know what you're missing. Ignorance really would be bliss in the once-rich man's case.

I say "would be" in the present tense because that poor man is still in anguish down there to this very day; almost 2,000 years since Luke's narrative was penned; and, in the grand scheme of things, he is only just getting started on eternity because 2,000 years is little more than a warm-up for the main event.

Thought Files . . . .

. Gen 6:5 . .And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

It's freaky to consider that the Bible's God has a way to eavesdrop on human mental processes. Apparently human thought is audible if you have the means to pick up on it. Incidentally, that evaluation took place prior to the Flood.

. Gen 8:20-21 . . And Noah builded an altar unto The Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And The Lord smelled a sweet savor; and The Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

That evaluation the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth took place after the Flood when the only human beings alive at the time were the eight people aboard the ark. So the people God was talking about was them; not somebody else down the block. Though Noah and his family had just been spared death by the grace of God, they were all still thinking evil imaginations when they came ashore, and the boys would go on to produce a race of more evil thinkers.

. Rom 2:16 . .God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ; according to my message.

The depressing reality of Paul's message is that God is busy archiving people's secrets, so that even all those nefarious fantasies that people entertain in the privacy of their own minds, where they think nobody can hear them, are going to be rewound and given a thorough going over. I will be very curious to see what was really going on in the minds of super-duper Christians like Mother Teresa all those years she was active as a missionary in India. From just a cursory reading of her private letters, published in September 2007, it doesn't look too good for the famous nun.

. Heb 4:12-13 . . For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

. Luke 12:1-3 . .The time is coming when everything will be revealed; all that is secret will be made public. Whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered behind closed doors will be shouted from the housetops for all to hear.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Rajni · May 25, 2009

WH, perhaps you could take a break from your ... eh ... "Hell Raising"
long enough to answer this question:

If "Hell" is real and all things were made for God's pleasure (Revelation
4:11), is it conceivable that God would get pleasure from seeing those
He created (in His own image, no less) endlessly tortured?

God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11).

Thoughts?

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Webers_Home · May 25, 2009

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RE: If "Hell" is real and all things were made for God's pleasure (Revelation 4:11), is it conceivable that God would get pleasure from seeing those He created (in His own image, no less) endlessly tortured?

. Rev 4:11 . . Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The KJV's "pleasure" is a bit misleading. The Greek word is thelema (thel'-ay-mah) which means: a determination, a choice (purpose, decree, volition)

Here's a better English translation from the NIV.

"for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Here's the same from the NASV.

"because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

And from the official Catholic version.

"for you created all things: because of your will they came to be and were created."

"pleasure" is accurate enough, but ambiguous. It leaves the impression that God derives glee from all the things He created; when in fact, all that passage is saying is that He created all things for Himself, and by Himself, simply because He alone decided to.

Yes, God created Hell, but it was originally intended for dark beings rather than for human beings.

. Mtt 25:41 . . Then he will say to those on his left: Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Surely no one who donates their only son's life towards mankind's betterment can possibly derive pleasure from human suffering.

. John 3:16-18 . . God so cared for the world, that He donated His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

One of my favorite beatitudes is this one:

.Mtt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Jesus wasn't talking about forgiveness in that beatitude. The word for "merciful" is eleemon (el-eh-ay'-mone) which means: compassionate. And the word for "mercy" is eleeo (el-eh-eh'-o) which means: to pity; viz: to be tender, kindhearted, responsive, sympathetic, warm, warmhearted, cordial, and accommodating.

When Jesus felt sorry for a widow's loss of her only son, I have no doubt that God felt sorry for her too. A prime example of mercy in action is the parable of the good Samaritan.

So then, what Jesus is saying is: cruel people those that are thoughtless, unresponsive, and indifferent to their fellow man; those who lack the milk of human kindness will get no sympathy from God whatsoever.

Anyway, the Bible's God is rich in mercy (Eph 2:4).

C.L.I.F.F.
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Toclafane · May 25, 2009

Webers_Home said:
....snip....
Anyway, the Bible's God is rich in mercy (Eph 2:4).

Webers_Home said:
Using my original figure of 2,256 worldwide additions per every sixty minutes on the clock, roughly 974,592 souls were shoveled to the flames in the same period. Kind of makes US casualties in the mid-east look pretty insignificant; doesn't it?

...snip....

If you say so

Webers_Home · May 25, 2009

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FAQ: Do you not know it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance rather than threats of justice?

If the Bible's God weren't kind, then He wouldn't bother to warn His creatures about the justice waiting for them in the afterlife.

†. Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say unto you my friends; Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.

When I was working as a professional welder for the US Army Corps of Engineers, we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we were shown some very grisly slides of real life industrial accidents involving burns, chain saws, punctured eyes, explosions, falls, crane collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like. Let me tell you something; those slides got our attention, and really made a sharp distinction between the fool and the wise.

†. Pro 22:3 . . A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

I started this topic as a public service to inform people what's inevitable in their future; so they can prepare themselves for it.

Is it a good idea to frighten people with graphic depictions of Hell? Yes, I think it is a very good idea to scare some sense into people; especially with the fear of God.

If people had nothing to fear from the State; would everybody voluntarily comply with the law? Would everybody voluntarily abstain from cheating on their taxes, shop lifting, car theft, murder, riots, looting, forgery, perjury, assault and battery, spousal abuse, child abuse, incest, rape, burglary, vandalism, trespassing, slander, embezzling, forgery, identity theft, child abuse, smuggling, drugs, money laundering, counterfeiting, loan sharking, terrorism, extortion, purse snatching, road rage, Jay walking, speeding, running red lights, passing illegally, et al, and et al? I don't think so. It's only when people fear the State that most become law-abiding citizens and walk the line.

I think if you would allow me to use a few things from everyday life where fear has a positive effect, and always leads one to be wise; you might better understand why it is wise to fear the Bible's God, and how that fear will lead one's self to safety.

Are you a parent? When my boy was growing up, I used fear to wise him up to the facts of life. Fear of rattlesnakes will save you from dying by snake bite. Fear of electrocution will keep you from playing with bare wires. Fear of liver failure will prevent you from eating wild toad stools. Fear of drowning will make you wear a flotation device when out boating. Fear of poverty will motivate you to learn a marketable skill. Fear of death and injury will make you look both ways when crossing the street. Fear of burns will make you keep your hands off a hot stove. Fear of prison will make you obey the law and select your companions with care so you don't go down with them when they commit crimes. Fear of losing your best friend will make you treat them with respect and courtesy. And fear of Divine retribution will make you sit up and pay attention to the purpose behind Christ's crucifixion. So you see, fear is not always a bad thing.

I didn't expose my boy to all those fears because I was mean. No. On the contrary it was because I worried for my boy's safety and didn't want to see him hurt. When people begin to get a sneaking suspicion that the Hell of the Bible just might be real, and that there's a very good chance they are probably going to end up there; then they will be highly motivated to search for a work-around to avoid it: a way that doesn't depend upon themselves, but rather, upon a knight in shining armor; viz: a savior who demands only that they fully trust in his proficiency as a rescuer. Then, and only then, are some of the most adamant of skeptics truly receptive to the good part of the gospel's news.

†. 2Cor 5:11 . . Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men

C.L.I.F.F.
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Rajni · May 26, 2009

Webers_Home said:
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RE: If "Hell" is real and all things were made for God's pleasure (Revelation 4:11), is it conceivable that God would get pleasure from seeing those He created (in His own image, no less) endlessly tortured?

. Rev 4:11 . . Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The KJV's "pleasure" is a bit misleading. The Greek word is thelema (thel'-ay-mah) which means: a determination, a choice (purpose, decree, volition)

Here's a better English translation from the NIV.

"for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Here's the same from the NASV.

"because of Thy will they existed, and were created."

And from the official Catholic version.

"for you created all things: because of your will they came to be and were created."

"pleasure" is accurate enough, but ambiguous. It leaves the impression that God derives glee from all the things He created; when in fact, all that passage is saying is that He created all things for Himself, and by Himself, simply because He alone decided to.

Yes, God created Hell, but it was originally intended for dark beings rather than for human beings.

. Mtt 25:41 . . Then he will say to those on his left: Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Surely no one who donates their only son's life towards mankind's betterment can possibly derive pleasure from human suffering.

. John 3:16-18 . . God so cared for the world, that He donated His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

One of my favorite beatitudes is this one:

.Mtt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Jesus wasn't talking about forgiveness in that beatitude. The word for "merciful" is eleemon (el-eh-ay'-mone) which means: compassionate. And the word for "mercy" is eleeo (el-eh-eh'-o) which means: to pity; viz: to be tender, kindhearted, responsive, sympathetic, warm, warmhearted, cordial, and accommodating.

When Jesus felt sorry for a widow's loss of her only son, I have no doubt that God felt sorry for her too. A prime example of mercy in action is the parable of the good Samaritan.

So then, what Jesus is saying is: cruel people those that are thoughtless, unresponsive, and indifferent to their fellow man; those who lack the milk of human kindness will get no sympathy from God whatsoever.

Anyway, the Bible's God is rich in mercy (Eph 2:4).

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Do you think that a persistent belief in the eternal
tormenting of those who don't measure up according to the
standards of whichever Christian persuasion we hold to
(there are hundreds of denominations to choose from) would
be a symptom of the sort of lack of mercy that God will come
down hard upon?

In other words, how do you think the Lord will respond, in
the end, to those who loved and worshipped a god that they
thought would be so cruel as to torture anyone eternally for
any reason?

.

.

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Webers_Home · May 26, 2009

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RE: In other words, how do you think the Lord will respond, in the end, to those who loved and worshipped a god that they thought would be so cruel as to torture anyone eternally for any reason?

I think those people will be in a good deal of trouble for two reasons: 1) The Bible's God is a God of compassion and justice; not of caprice and cruelty, and 2) the Bible's God doesn't torture people eternally for "any" reason; ergo: those people are not loving and worshipping the Bible's God, but rather, are loving and worshipping a spun version of the Bible's God i.e. one of the Bible God's man-made competitors.

Liberals and Universalists focus way too much on God's love; while recklessly marginalizing the cold steel fact that the Bible's God is also a jurist of the highest possible ethical integrity. He couldn't live with Himself if he swept sins under the rug. No, justice has to be satisfied, and God's law must be vindicated and thoroughly enforced before He can let anybody off with a slap on the wrist.

†. Ps 45:6-7 . . Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness

People have to face justice for even every idle word they speak; not just their serious words.

†. Mtt 12:35-37 . . I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be innocent, and by your words you will be condemned.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Rajni · May 26, 2009

Webers_Home said:
RE: In other words, how do you think the Lord will respond, in the end, to those who loved and worshipped a god that they thought would be so cruel as to torture anyone eternally for any reason?

I think those people will be in a good deal of trouble for two reasons: 1) The Bible's God is a God of compassion and justice; not of caprice and cruelty, and 2) the Bible's God doesn't torture people eternally for "any" reason; ergo: those people are not loving and worshipping the Bible's God, but rather, are loving and worshipping a spun version of the Bible's God i.e. one of the Bible God's man-made competitors.

So you don't believe in an eternal hell after all? Because
those who preach an eternal hell are, in effect, preaching
just such a cruel god. It isn't like He created mankind with
absolutely no idea which one of them would reject Him. He
knows the end from the beginning, and if He creates
someone, knowing full well that they would reject Him, He
is, in effect, sending them to endless torment in hell
(assuming, for the sake of argument, that such a place
existed).

Liberals and Universalists focus way too much on God's love; while recklessly marginalizing the cold steel fact that the Bible's God is also a jurist of the highest possible ethical integrity.

However, God doesn't just have love -- He is Love Itself. If
love and mercy weren't part of what He's all about, then,
yes, one could see Him chucking people into an eternal
fire-pit for whatever reason. However, love and mercy are
very much a part of the equation, and as long as that's the
case, the notion of an endless fiery furnace must be called
into question.

He couldn't live with Himself if he swept sins under the rug.

Well, He's God -- He can do whatever He wants. He didn't
merely sweep the sin of the world under the rug -- He took
away the sin of the world.

No, justice has to be satisfied, and God's law must be vindicated and thoroughly enforced before He can let anybody off with a slap on the wrist.

Justice was satisfied through Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
If it could be satisfied by simply sending to hell those who
don't tow the line, Jesus could have saved Himself the
trouble of leaving the comforts of Heaven and coming down
here in the first place.

People have to face justice for even every idle word they speak; not just their serious words.

There are consequences built into every wrong action; God
doesn't need an endless hell to address that.

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Webers_Home · May 26, 2009

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The Bible's God is very pro Hell. Of the twelve times that the New Testament Greek word for a flaming Hell (geena) is used, the New Testament's Jesus threatened people with it eleven.

Yes, I am very pro Hell. Are you pro prison system? If so, then you too are pro Hell.

Heaven is a place of peace. There are certain kinds of people who simply cannot be allowed to go there because it wouldn't be fair to the others. Not only that; but they wouldn't be happy in Heaven anyway if they couldn't be themselves there.

I once heard a preacher tell a rather realistic tale about a bus load of Hell's inmates who were issued a 30-day pass for R&R in Heaven. They all came back the very first night because Heaven had nothing to offer them. There were no quarrels, no arguments, no fights, no cussing, no smart-Alec retorts, no sarcasm, no ridicule, no chafing, no demeaning comments, no free love, no protest marches, no bias, no prejudice, no liars, no oppression, no bullies, no feminists, no gays, no lesbians, no babies fathered out of wedlock, no miscarriages of justice, no religious tolerance, no democracy, no privacy, no freedom of speech, no separation of church and state, no casinos, and everybody had to go to the same church and sing the same hymns.

I also have an appreciation for the satisfaction of justice. There are some people for whom the Bible's hell is too good. They not only deserve to go there, but that is precisely where they belong because they are toxic, ugly human beings despicable churls who can only be humbled by permanent third degree burns over 100% of their bodies; which would have the effect of giving them the appearance of an over-grilled hot dog. Next time you see an over-grilled hot dog, particularly note it's darkened, blistered texture. An over-grilled hot dog looks more like a piece of wood than edible food.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Rajni · May 27, 2009

Webers_Home said:
The Bible's God is very pro Hell.

No, He isnt. The god of this world is, though!

Of the twelve times that the New Testament Greek word for a flaming Hell (geena) is used, the New Testament's Jesus threatened people with it eleven.

Gehenna and endless fiery torture are two different things.
Jesus spoke of Gehenna, not endless fiery torture.

Yes, I am very pro Hell. Are you pro prison system? If so, then you too are pro Hell.

People arent in prison for eternity. People in Hell are said
to be. There is therefore no comparison between the two.

Heaven is a place of peace. There are certain kinds of people who simply cannot be allowed to go there because it wouldn't be fair to the others.

Citizens of the Heavenly Kingdom are, by the very fact that
they are there, transformed. So rubbing elbows with those
we may currently think arent worthy to be there wont be a
problem because God will have tweaked our humility to
accommodate them, and will have tweaked their nature to
the redeemed status that is characteristic of Heavenly
citizenship. See? Problem solved. NEXT!

Not only that; but they wouldn't be happy in Heaven anyway if they couldn't be themselves there.

Using that logic: All the more reason to put them in Heaven
where they can be miserable. If theyre going to be
miserable enough in Heaven, theres no need for a Hell.
NEXT!

I once heard a preacher tell a rather realistic tale about a bus load of Hell's inmates who were issued a 30-day pass for R&R in Heaven. They all came back the very first night because Heaven had nothing to offer them. There were no quarrels, no arguments, no fights, no cussing, no smart-Alec retorts, no sarcasm, no ridicule, no chafing, no demeaning comments, no free love, no protest marches, no bias, no prejudice, no liars, no oppression, no bullies, no feminists, no gays, no lesbians, no babies fathered out of wedlock, no miscarriages of justice, no religious tolerance, no democracy, no privacy, no freedom of speech, no separation of church and state, no casinos, and everybody had to go to the same church and sing the same hymns.

The healing power of God is something to behold, isnt it?
Now we just need people to realize there is no limit to the
scope of that healing.

I also have an appreciation for the satisfaction of justice. There are some people for whom the Bible's hell is too good. They not only deserve to go there, but that is precisely where they belong because they are toxic, ugly human beings despicable churls who can only be humbled by permanent third degree burns over 100% of their bodies; which would have the effect of giving them the appearance of an over-grilled hot dog. Next time you see an over-grilled hot dog, particularly note it's darkened, blistered texture. An over-grilled hot dog looks more like a piece of wood than edible food.

This statement shows your heart in this matter. A glaring
example of how man emulates the god they worship, and
how they try to shape the one True God into their own
image. Hang in there, WH this is only a phase youre going
through. It will get better, God will see to that. You may not
see it now, but youre in for a very pleasant surprise and
youll be relieved to discover your above assessment was
way off target.

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Webers_Home · May 28, 2009

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It's easy to assume that only really bad people are in Hell. But according to Mtt 7:23-27, John 3:3-8, John 3:14-20, John 3:36, and Rev 20:11-15, anybody can be there; both the good, the bad, and the average bikers, bakers, lawyers, welders, actors and actresses, housewives, bankers, heavy equipment operators, loggers, convicts, celebrities, homeless bums, clergy, prostitutes, drug lords, postmen, Presidents, Kings, Queens, statesmen, astronauts, school teachers, scientists, nurses, doctors, chemists, machinists, carpenters, waiters, hotel managers, cops, judges, nuns, priests, Popes, deacons, salesmen, Miss Americas, news anchors, weathermen, birdwatchers people from every walk, every career, every craft, and every status: they're all down there. Because when you strip away their titles, and stand them before God naked; people are only flesh and blood creatures, human wildlife, naked apes, just human beings; and human beings are thoroughly sinful beings.

. Gen 8:21 . . Man's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood.

Frequent Objection: Nobody is going to a Hell. The Lord promised in John 3:16 that he would save "the World"

That objector is obviously referring to a Lord that is absolutely foreign to the Bible because according to the New Testament Jesus' testimony as an expert witness on matters pertaining to the afterlife, the majority of the human race has not been making it to safety.

. Mtt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

. Mtt 22:14 . . For many are invited, but few are chosen.

The apostle John was given a glimpse of the future, and in the glimpse he actually saw people whom he labeled as The Dead being thrown alive into a reservoir of liquid flame.

. Rev 20:14-15 . .The lake of fire is the second death. Whoever's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Yes, The Bible's Jesus came into the world to rescue it from the wrath of God. But not everybody in the world is going to be rescued because according to the very passage the objector quoted, disbelief will cause many of the world to miss out. According to the Bible's Lord, only the people who accept Christ's message benefit from his crucifixion. The rest abide in a condition of Death; and can only look forward to a day in court at the Great White Throne of Rev 20:11-15.

. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and rely upon God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life.

Within the context of John 3:14-18, anybody who has yet to fully depend upon Jesus' crucifixion to protect themselves from the wrath of God is an unbeliever; ergo: they're already condemned, no delay, and no waiting period.

. John 3:16-18 . .For God was so concerned for the world that He donated His one and only son, that whoever relies upon him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but to rescue it through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves stands condemned already because he has not relied upon the name of God's one and only son.

. John 3:36 . .Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disbelieves the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

. Rev 21:8 . . The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Frequent Objection: The Lord is compassionate and would never run an eternal torture mill for his lost sheep.

Yes, that's true. The sheep of the Bible's Lord's are perfectly safe.

. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

But only believers qualify as the sheep of the Bible's Lord; the rest of the world is quite damned; including, but not limited to: Bahai, Confucians, Jains, Shintoists, Sikhs, Spiritists, Taoists, Zoroastrians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Universalists, Scientologists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Unitarians, and Mormons.

. Eph 1:13 . . And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

According to that passage, and the next two, people do not get sealed for salvation until they believe.

. Eph 1:16-19 . . I cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe

. Mrk 16:15-16 . .And then he said to them; Go into all the world and preach the good news everywhere to everyone, Anyone who believes and is baptized will be spared; but everyone who disbelieves will be damned.

C.L.I.F.F.
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Rajni · May 28, 2009

Webers_Home said:
It's easy to assume that only really bad people are in Hell. But according to Mtt 7:23-27, John 3:3-8, John 3:14-20, John 3:36, and Rev 20:11-15, anybody can be there; both the good, the bad, and the average bikers, bakers, lawyers, welders, actors and actresses, housewives, bankers, heavy equipment operators, loggers, convicts, celebrities, homeless bums, clergy, prostitutes, drug lords, postmen, Presidents, Kings, Queens, statesmen, astronauts, school teachers, scientists, nurses, doctors, chemists, machinists, carpenters, waiters, hotel managers, cops, judges, nuns, priests, Popes, deacons, salesmen, Miss Americas, news anchors, weathermen, birdwatchers people from every walk, every career, every craft, and every status: they're all down there. Because when you strip away their titles, and stand them before God naked; people are only flesh and blood creatures, human wildlife, naked apes, just human beings; and human beings are thoroughly sinful beings.

You forgot secretaries.

Frequent Objection: Nobody is going to a Hell. The Lord promised in John 3:16 that he would save "the World"

That objector is obviously referring to a Lord that is absolutely foreign to the Bible because according to the New Testament Jesus' testimony as an expert witness on matters pertaining to the afterlife, the majority of the human race has not been making it to safety.
*.* Mtt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Since nobody seeks God, naturally nobody finds this Road.
However, Scripture never says that the Road doesnt find
them. I explained this to you previously in post #59

*.* Mtt 22:14 . . For many are invited, but few are chosen.

This here is a "rerun". Again, see post #59.

The apostle John was given a glimpse of the future, and in the glimpse he actually saw people whom he labeled as The Dead being thrown alive into a reservoir of liquid flame.

*.* Rev 20:14-15 . .The lake of fire is the second death. Whoever's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Lets take a closer look at this lake of fire and brimstone.

Basically, God is said to be a consuming fire, and the lake of
fire and brimstone is said to be in the presence of the Holy
Lamb and His Holy angels (Rev. 14:10).

Additionally, the term brimstone would have spoken of
purification and healing to John's First Century audience, as
opposed to just torture.

The word brimstone (theion in Greek), means divine fire.
Theioo actually means to make divine. Volcanic activity
and lightning were called brimstone, both of which were
related to sulfur. Sulfur has been burned as incense for
purification, and as a medicinal incense for healing and to
ward off evil. Even nowadays, sulfur based drugs are used
medicinally.

In short, the Lake of Fire is a wake-up-call, not a death
sentence. Besides, death itself is abolished, so it cant mean
death.

Yes, The Bible's Jesus came into the world to rescue it from the wrath of God. But not everybody in the world is going to be rescued because according to the very passage the objector quoted, disbelief will cause many of the world to miss out.

True, those who didnt believe suffered Gods wrath on
Jerusalem in 70 AD. However, it involved the fall of
Jerusalem, not endless torture. I see those verses that tie
belief to salvation as having to do with being saved from
Gods judgment upon Jerusalem at that time. Therefore,
those verses arent necessarily addressing the wider scope
of the salvation of all souls for all time.

But only believers qualify as the sheep of the Bible's Lord; the rest of the world is quite damned; including, but not limited to: Bahai, Confucians, Jains, Shintoists, Sikhs, Spiritists, Taoists, Zoroastrians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Universalists, Scientologists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Unitarians, and Mormons.

You included Jews in that list. You probably didnt realize
that all Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25).

According to that passage, and the next two, people do not get sealed for salvation until they believe.

Fortunately, belief is a work of God (John 6:29, Ephesians
2:8-9), not man. Therefore, since it is God who chooses us
for salvation (not the other way around), and since He will
have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge
of the truth (1 Tim 2:4), ultimately everyone will believe
unto salvation. Is our God awesome, or what?

Lam 3:31-32:For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He
causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His
abundant lovingkindness.

.

Webers_Home · May 28, 2009

.
RE: You included Jews in that list. You probably didn’t realize that all Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25).

†. Rom 9:27 . . Isaiah preached concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved."

The remnant is representative of all twelve tribes, but it has never consisted of every individual Jew who ever lived.

†. Rom 9:6 . . For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

Out in the future at some time, just prior to the reality of Messiah's kingdom, the Diaspora will rounded up from all over the world and taken to one place. At that time each individual Jew will be evaluated to determine which ones qualify to return to Israel under Messiah's regime. The evaluations will be according to the law in Moses' covenant. Those Jews who do not measure up will be banished from Messiah's kingdom; and many will be summarily executed on the spot.

†. Ezek 20:33-44 . . As I live— declares the Lord God —I will reign over you with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with overflowing fury. With a strong hand and an outstretched arm and overflowing fury I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples; and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face.

. . As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I enter into judgment with you— declares the Lord God. I will make you pass under the shepherd’s staff, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. I will remove from you those who rebel and transgress against Me; I will take them out of the countries where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.

Where he says "all Israel shall be saved" the author is referring to a time past when the land was divided into two districts: Isreal in the north, and Judah in the south.

The north was out of favor with God and designated "not my people" (Hos 1:8-11). There is a day coming when there will no more again be two districts, but the two shall be permanently united under Messiah. Does that mean every last Jew who ever lived will enter Messiah's kingdom? No. Many are even now already in Hell, and there are many yet to follow; most especially the ones who accept the mark of the beast.

†. Mtt 8:11-12 . . And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

†. Rom 2:9-10 . .Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no favoritism with God.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Rajni · May 28, 2009

Webers_Home said:
.
RE: You included Jews in that list. You probably didnt realize that all Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25).

. Rom 9:27 . . Isaiah preached concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved."

The remnant is representative of all twelve tribes, but it has never consisted of every individual Jew who ever lived.

. Rom 9:6 . . For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

Out in the future at some time, just prior to the reality of Messiah's kingdom, the Diaspora will rounded up from all over the world and taken to one place. At that time each individual Jew will be evaluated to determine which ones qualify to return to Israel under Messiah's regime. The evaluations will be according to the law in Moses' covenant. Those Jews who do not measure up will be banished from Messiah's kingdom; and many will be summarily executed on the spot.

. Ezek 20:33-44 . . As I live declares the Lord God I will reign over you with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with overflowing fury. With a strong hand and an outstretched arm and overflowing fury I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples; and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face.

. . As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I enter into judgment with you declares the Lord God. I will make you pass under the shepherds staff, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. I will remove from you those who rebel and transgress against Me; I will take them out of the countries where they sojourn, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.

Where he says "all Israel shall be saved" the author is referring to a time past when the land was divided into two districts: Isreal in the north, and Judah in the south.

The north was out of favor with God and designated "not my people" (Hos 1:8-11). There is a day coming when there will no more again be two districts, but the two shall be permanently united under Messiah. Does that mean every last Jew who ever lived will enter Messiah's kingdom? No. Many are even now already in Hell, and there are many yet to follow; most especially the ones who accept the mark of the beast.

. Mtt 8:11-12 . . And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

. Rom 2:9-10 . .Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no favoritism with God.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to
the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

We know Jesus' thorough methodology when it comes to being the Good
Shepherd. True, there's the whole sheep-vs-goats issue, but one has to
wonder how long one will remain steeped in their "goat-headedness" when
we read:

Acts 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent
Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked
ways."

Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may
be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be
guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are
of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham,
who is the father of us all...

Romans 11:32 For God has locked all people in the prison of
their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

.

Webers_Home · May 29, 2009

.
FAQ: Can God commit suicide?

To begin with, suicide only effects one's body, not their existence. But even at that, the Bible's God doesn't have a body; He's spirit.

. John 4:24 . . God is spirit

God's existence is unique in that He is an eternal life.

. Isa 40:28 . . Hast thou not known? Hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, The Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary?

The Old Testament Hebrew word for everlasting in that verse is `owlam (o-lawm'); which means: the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. eternity.

. 1John 1:1-2 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched this we proclaim concerning The Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

The Greek word for eternal in that New Testament passage is aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os) which means, literally, ageless and perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well).

aionios life is a kind of life that cannot go out of existence; nor did it even have a beginning.

FAQ: People in Hell are to be there forever. Doesn't that show that they have eternal life?

People in Hell have human life, which is a perishable kind of life. The New Testament's Jesus says people with eternal life will never perish.

. John 10:27-28 . . y sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish

Obviously the people in Hell are in a state of perishing, so they failed to obtain eternal life prior to passing over to the other side.

FAQ: Don't people in Hell have immortality?

No, they don't even have that kind of life because if they did, then the fires couldn't harm them. Immortality refers to an impervious body; like the man of steel in Superman comic books (1Cor 15:35-54).

Immortality and eternal life are not the same thing. They're juxtaposed in Rom 2:7 and 2Tim 1:10. Immortality regards the nature of one's body, while eternal life regards the nature of one's existence.

Today, the Bible's Jesus not only has eternal life, but he also has immortality (1Tim 6:14-16). So that now you could put his body at ground zero of a nuclear detonation and it would neither die nor even suffer burns, because the Bible's Jesus now has a kind of body that simply cannot be injured.

People in Hell are feeling pain and thirst, and they exist in a form that is both recognizable and capable of sight and speech (Isa 14:4-11, Lk 16:19-31). The precise nature of their netherworld existence is yet unknown, but I seriously doubt it's flesh and blood since an Adamic human body wouldn't survive for very long in a flaming environment.

FAQ: What about Adam? Didn't he have immortality?

No he didn't, though he could have prolonged his body's life by fortifying his diet with a fruit that grew on a special tree (Gen 2:8, Gen 3:22-24). In order to cause Adam's body to die, all that God had to do was deny him access to the fruit and let nature takes its course. A truly immortal body doesn't require an essential nutrient to sustain itself (cf. John 6:30-59).

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Webers_Home · May 30, 2009

.
FAQ: Ever consider the fact that the Bible nowhere mentions that we go to heaven or hell at the moment of death?

I am unaware of the "fact" to which that person refers, which in reality, is not a fact at all, but rather, simply a deficiency in their own personal knowledge of the Bible.

Paul was confident that at his departure, he would be with The Lord.

. Php 1:23 . . I desire to depart and be with Christ

To "be with Christ" is to be in Heaven because that is where the Bible's Jesus currently resides at his Father's right hand.

For believers such as myself, to be absent from the body; is to be present with The Lord.

. 2Cor 5:6-8 . .Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. . We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with The Lord.

When the rich man and the beggar Lazarus died in Luk 16:19-31, the angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's section of the netherworld.

. Luk 16:22 . .The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.

It's obvious from the text that Abraham was not in the Hell section of the netherworld at the time. It could be argued he was also not in the Heaven section at the time too; but that would certainly not be true today. If Paul expected to be with The Lord at his passing; then I have no doubt Abraham and Lazarus are now with The Lord too.

The New Testament's Jesus gave a fellow prisoner his word that they would both enter a paradise the very day of their crucifixions.

. Luk 23:43 . . Jesus answered him; I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.

If Jesus and his fellow prisoner went to a paradise the very day of their deaths, then can there be any doubt that the rich man went to the Hell section of the netherworld the very day of his own death, and Lazarus went to Abraham's section on the very day of his death?

Upon comparing texts, it becomes clear that nobody went to Heaven prior to Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Old Testament saints went to luxurious accommodations in the netherworld where Abraham was at the time of the events narrated in Luk 16:19-31. And the damned went to you know where; and they are still there to this very day yearning for a damp swab to soothe their parched tongues.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Webers_Home · May 31, 2009

.
†. Heb 10:26-28 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

If you know the Bible, then you're aware that lies are sins. Yet you continue to lie; don't you? Every time you lie, you commit a deliberate sin because you know full well that lies are sins. You've probably been taught that sexual fantasies are sins. Yet you continue to have them don't you? Every time you indulge in a sexual fantasy, you commit a deliberate sin because you were taught that sexual fantasies are acts of mental adultery. If you know the Bible, then you know from Mtt 12:36 that thoughtless remarks are sin, yet you continue to make thoughtless remarks. How about traffic laws? When you deliberately speed, fail to come to a complete stop at stop signs, run red lights, pass illegally, and/or jay-walk; you are committing deliberate sins because you know from Rom 13:1-7, and 1Pet 2:13-15 it is a sin to break traffic laws; yet you continue to break those laws anyway.

Therefore, performance-oriented Christians who believe there is no forgiveness of any kind for deliberate sins; are going to Hell. They have to go there because it is their belief that there is no absolution for deliberate sinners. But I am willing to bet money that none of them who believe that way really and truly worry about going to Hell. I would like to ask them: Where's your panic? Where's your terror? Where's your anxiety? No, they don't believe their own beliefs; because if they did, they would feel terror, anxiety, worry, and panic; because Hell, my friends, is something to be feared; and it is feared by everybody who truly believes in it.

†. Luke 12:4-5 . . Dear friends, don't be afraid of those who want to kill you. They can only kill the body; they cannot do any more to you. But I'll tell you whom to fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill people and then throw them into Hell.

If the beliefs of performance-oriented Christians were true— that there is no absolution for intentional sins under either the old or the new covenant —then let me ask them another question: just what advantage (if any) does your kind of Christianity have over Judaism, and what advantage would the new covenant have over the old one if neither Christianity nor Judaism offered absolution for intentional sins? There would be no advantage whatsoever; and the Gospel wouldn't be good news, but rather, it would be bad news— in point of fact, Christianity would be so redundant as to not even be worth the bother.

If, as some have interpreted Heb 10:26-28, there is no forgiveness of any kind for deliberate sin, then David, one of the holiest men in the Bible, should have gone to Hell. But we know he didn't go there because his actions with Bathsheba and her husband were absolved (2Sam 12:13). David committed adultery and premeditated murder, knowing full well that both of those acts are sins, and knowing full well that Moses' Law mandates the death penalty for both offenses (Ex 21:12-14, Lev 20:10).

Performance-oriented Christians retain a kind of Christianity in their heads that nobody can possibly live up to, not even they themselves, because there is not a day goes by that even performance-oriented Christians themselves commits at least one deliberate sin. I suspect performance-oriented Christians are fully aware they now have no hope of escape; and have already resigned themselves to perish in the Lake of Fire. Yes, Lord Jesus; amen. Be it unto them according to their faith; not mine.

†. Eph 2:4-10 . . But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace that you have been rescued. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

. . For it is by the kindness and generosity of God that you have been spared, through faith— and you can't take credit for this; it is a gratuity from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so that we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

†. Titus 3:3-8 . . At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another But when the kindness and love of God our rescuer appeared, He spared us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been acquitted by His kindness and generosity, we might become heirs according to the anticipation of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying.

Webster's defines anticipation as: to look forward with expectation. Anticipation is way different than wishing and/or guessing at the future. No, anticipation means you are already fully informed that something is on the way, and it's only a matter of time before it arrives. An heir "according to the anticipation of eternal life" means eternal life is already in the bag.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and rely upon God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already transferred from Death into Life.

†. John 6:47 . .I assure you; he who believes has eternal life.

†. 1John 5:13 . . I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Webers_Home · Jun 1, 2009

.
When people waken at night within a burning apartment building, and passage ways are obscured by smoke and fire, the best thing that they can hear is a professional fireman's voice calling to them; This Way! Follow me! At that moment, all things bank accounts, cars, clothing, mementos, charge cards, pets, taxes, sex, careers, incomes, who wins the California primary or Dancing With The Stars, whatever pale in comparison to the importance of following that fireman's voice to safety.

. Matt 16:26 . . For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

. Luke 12:20 . . But God said to him; You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?

Many years ago when I was a young single guy in my early twenties, living alone in a cheap rental as I was listening to a radio preacher talk about Hell, something in my mind took over; and I had the strangest sensation of falling off the earth into an abyss and nobody cared, nor did anybody miss me, nor did my disappearance cause any alarm nor make any difference.

The freeways remained busy with frustrated drivers and honking horns, people still got up to go to work, shoppers crowded the supermarkets and department stores, kids caught their buses to school, birds kept right on chirping, grass kept on growing, ocean waves went on rolling to the beach, and all that. My absence changed nothing nor disturbed anyone nor anything. The world kept right on turning, clocks went on ticking; and nature and man went right on with their business as usual without the slightest hiccup. I have never felt so alone and so unwanted. Let me tell you, the Gospel's good news sounds really good at a time like that.

So; what is the good news? The good news is that Christ gave his own life to ransom people from the wrath of God.

. Mtt 20:28 . . Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

. 1Tim 2:5-6 . . For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men

. John 3:16-17 . . For God so cared for the world that he donated His only son, so that everyone who relies upon him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send His son into the world to condemn it, but to rescue it.

. Rom 5:6-11 . .You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been rendered innocent by his blood, how much more shall we be spared from God's wrath through him!

. . For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of His own son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

So then, although Hell is everyone's default destiny; it doesn't have to be your inevitable destiny when there's that kind of a bail-out available.

. John 3:14-15 . . As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness (Num 21:5-9), even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever looks to him may have eternal life.

. John 6:40 . . It is my Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son, and relies upon him, may have eternal life; and I will stand him up at the last day.

. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Webers_Home · Jun 2, 2009

.
. Prv 1:24-33 . . I called you so often, but you didn't come. I reached out to you, but you paid no attention. You ignored my advice and rejected the correction I offered. So I will laugh when you are in trouble! I will mock you when disaster overtakes you when calamity overcomes you like a storm, when you are engulfed by trouble, and when anguish and distress overwhelm you.

. . I will not answer when they cry for help. Even though they anxiously search for me, they will not find me. For they hated knowledge and chose not to fear The Lord. They rejected my advice and paid no attention when I corrected them. That is why they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way. They must experience the full terror of the path they have chosen. For they are simpletons who turn away from me to death. They are fools, and their own complacency will destroy them. But all who listen to me will live in peace and safety, unafraid of harm.

. Prv 6:10-11 . . A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep so shall your poverty come on you like a prowler, and your privation like an armed man.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

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