Hell's Pop Clock

Rajni · May 20, 2009

Webers_Home said:
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RE: Your point is what?

Most people would rather talk about Heaven, but since Jesus said the majority of humanity has been going the other direction, then I think people should be concerned more about their imminent demise than Heaven.

. Ecc 7:3 . . It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

So, Jesus is not the Savior of the world, just a small portion of it?

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Tavita · May 20, 2009

KJV - Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

YLT - Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The Greek for the mistranslation of everlasting in the KJV is Aionion, and means age-during, as it says in the Youngs Literal and other newer versions which are far more accurate than the KJV.

Aionion - for an age... it has a beginning and an end, it relates to 'time'.

The Greek for punishment is Kolasis, and means to prune, chastise, correct.

So for an age they will be sent away into corrective punishment.

Tavita · May 20, 2009

OzSpen said:
Tavita,

I notice that you live in Canberra. I used to live in Stirling in the early 1990s but have moved to the warmer climes of Hervey Bay, Qld.

I'm here in Condor just for a time with my mother... I need surgery and time to heal so I chose to come here to stay until I'm better. I usually live in Singleton in the Hunter Valley, north of Sydney. My brother use to live in Hervey Bay... he loved it... I don't like the humidity!

Toclafane · May 20, 2009

starting to smell like spam.

Webers_Home · May 20, 2009

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RE: So, Jesus is not the Savior of the world, just a small portion of it?

Jesus is the savior of the world in that there is no one else to turn to for a ransom from the wrath of God; just as there was no one else but Prince Joseph to turn to for grain during those awful years of famine in Egypt.

Jesus' crucifixion isn't just an option, no, it's the only option, and it's the final option.

. Heb 10:26-31 . . Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that will cover these sins. There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.

Though Christ gave his life for the whole world, only those who believe will benefit. The rest will be, and already are, damned.

. Mark 16:16 . . He that believes and is baptized shall be spared; but he that disbelieves shall be damned.

. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who disbelieves the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

. John 3:16-18 . . God so cared for the world, that He donated His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be spared through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who disbelieves has been condemned already

. Rev 21:8 . . The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

John actually saw people being thrown into a reservoir of flaming liquid.

. Rev 20:15 . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Webers_Home · May 20, 2009

.
RE: starting to smell like spam.

Christ's people are authorized to spam the Gospel in his name.

†. Matt 28:18-20 . . All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

†. Mark 16:15-16 . . Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to everyone, everywhere. Everyone who believes and is baptized will be spared. But everyone who disbelieves will be damned.

I have been on two very large Christian forums in the past that banned preaching as "unsolicited spiritual counseling". Can you imagine a Christian forum doing that? It's just beyond belief that anyone who wears the Christian label would be so bereft of a sense of duty and mission as to ban compliance with Christ's last wishes.

†. Mtt 22:35-38 . . One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.

†. Acts 4:19-20 . .Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; for we cannot stop speaking what we have seen and heard.

†. Acts 5:29 . . Peter and the apostles answered and said: We must obey God rather than men.

What in God's name is this world is coming to when Christ's followers get in trouble on Christian forums for doing their conscientious best to comply with the great commission!?

†. John 16:1-4 . . I have told you these things so that you won't fall away. For you will be expelled from the synagogues, and the time is coming when those who slay you will think they are doing God a service. This is because they have never known the Father or me. Yes, I'm telling you these things now, so that when they happen, you will remember I warned you.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Rajni · May 20, 2009

Webers_Home said:
.
RE: So, Jesus is not the Savior of the world, just a small portion of it?

Jesus is the savior of the world in that there is no one else to turn to for a ransom from the wrath of God; just as there was no one else but Prince Joseph to turn to for grain during those awful years of famine in Egypt.

Jesus' crucifixion isn't just an option, no, it's the only option, and it's the final option.

Do you think that God would have gone through the trouble He did
to save the world if He knew He would only come away with a small
handful of people in the end?

Though Christ gave his life for the whole world, only those who believe will benefit. The rest will be, and already are, damned.

Do you see unbelief as a sin?

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Rajni · May 20, 2009

Tavita said:
KJV - Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

YLT - Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The Greek for the mistranslation of everlasting in the KJV is Aionion, and means age-during, as it says in the Youngs Literal and other newer versions which are far more accurate than the KJV.

Aionion - for an age... it has a beginning and an end, it relates to 'time'.

The Greek for punishment is Kolasis, and means to prune, chastise, correct.

So for an age they will be sent away into corrective punishment.

Amen, Tavita.

.

Rajni · May 20, 2009

Webers_Home said:
What in God's name is this world is coming to when Christ's followers get in trouble on Christian forums for doing their conscientious best to comply with the great commission!?

There's no problem sharing the Good News, but this thread started out
basically glorifying Hell's perceived success rate. That is not what the Great
Commission is about, is it?

.

Tavita · May 21, 2009

chaela said:
There's no problem sharing the Good News, but this thread started out
basically glorifying Hell's perceived success rate. That is not what the Great
Commission is about, is it?

Amen Chaela!..

This is an interesting couple of verses...

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, (not the ministry of condemnation and death.. )
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the ~world~ to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

This one seems to say that all mankind (who were God's enemies) have ALREADY been reconciled to God by Christ's sacrifice (which has ALREADY taken place) on the cross.... AND.. if we are reconciled, THEN we SHALL be saved by His life..... don't ya think mate?

Rom 5:10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;

This is the love of God in Christ Jesus!

Tavita · May 21, 2009

Webers_Home said:
.
John actually saw people being thrown into a reservoir of flaming liquid.

. Rev 20:15 . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
/

John saw 'in the Spirit'... it was spiritual language describing a vision in the Spirit.. it's not meant to be taken literally!

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

Do you think there is actually a 'book of Life'?

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is His revelation of Himself to YOU personally. It is not meant for those 'out there', and is not meant as a 'timeline' of events in the world... it is the unveiling of Christ to YOU and ME. It is written in spiritual language. Jesus said that the words He spoke are spirit and life.

OzSpen · May 21, 2009

Tavita,

I'm here in Condor just for a time with my mother... I need surgery and time to heal so I chose to come here to stay until I'm better. I usually live in Singleton in the Hunter Valley, north of Sydney. My brother use to live in Hervey Bay... he loved it... I don't like the humidity!

I was born and bred on a sugar cane farm in Bundaberg, Qld., so the humidity is something I have aclimatised to. But I have lived near Vancouver, Canada and in Seattle USA, as well as in Ohio & Indiana.

OzSpen · May 21, 2009

Tavita,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is His revelation of Himself to YOU personally. It is not meant for those 'out there', and is not meant as a 'timeline' of events in the world... it is the unveiling of Christ to YOU and ME. It is written in spiritual language. Jesus said that the words He spoke are spirit and life.

What, then, is your interpretation of the Book of Revelation? Do you fit into the preterist, futurist, dispensational, amillennial, or another model?

Rajni · May 21, 2009

Tavita said:
This is an interesting couple of verses...

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, (not the ministry of condemnation and death.. )

Thats right. We were never commanded to preach a turn or burn gospel.

2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the ~world~ to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
This one seems to say that all mankind (who were God's enemies) have ALREADY been reconciled to God by Christ's sacrifice (which has ALREADY taken place) on the cross.... AND.. if we are reconciled, THEN we SHALL be saved by His life..... don't ya think mate?

Affirmative!

Rom 5:10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; This is the love of God in Christ Jesus!

Praise God!

.

Webers_Home · May 21, 2009

.
RE: Do you think that God would have gone through the trouble He did to save the world if He knew He would only come away with a small handful of people in the end?

I think what I am informed to think.

†. Mtt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

†. Mtt 22:14 . . For many are invited, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines many as: consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number

few is defined as: consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: not many; i.e. some, but indeterminately small in number

According to Webster's then; few means a small percentage, and many means a large percentage; viz: most.

Actually, that "handful" is adding up to a very large bottom line.

†. Isa 53:11-12 . . When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins.

†. Rev 7:9-10 . . After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

RE: Do you see unbelief as a sin?

†. Rev 21:8 . . The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Why is unbelief so serious? Because it casts an aspersion upon the Bible's God as a person of low moral integrity who cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

†. 1John 5:10-12 . . Anyone who does not believe God insinuates that He's a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about His son.

RE: There's no problem sharing the Good News, but this thread started out basically glorifying Hell's perceived success rate. That is not what the Great Commission is about, is it?

If you have seen this topic as a glorification of Hell, rather than the grave danger and the graphic horror that it is really is, then you have not been paying attention.

Is the great commission about Hell? My God yes! Take away the prospect of Hell, and reliance upon Christ's crucifixion as an adequate price to ransom men's souls from the wrath of God becomes an option rather than a desperate necessity.

†. Mark 16:16 . . He that believes and is baptized shall be spared; but he that disbelieves shall be damned.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who disbelieves the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

†. John 3:16-18 . . God so cared for the world, that He donated His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be spared through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who disbelieves has been condemned already

†. Rev 21:8 . . The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

John actually saw people being thrown into that reservoir of flaming liquid.

†.Rev 20:15 . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Webers_Home · May 21, 2009

.
RE: John saw 'in the Spirit'... it was spiritual language describing a vision in the Spirit.. it's not meant to be taken literally!

What John was shown is as valid and reliable as a live video feed.

†. Rev 4:1 . . After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said: Come up here, and I will show you what must take place

The Great White Throne and the reservoir of flaming liquid of Rev 20:11-15, are things that "must take place".

Those of us who believe that what John saw is real, have run for our very lives to Christ for protection.

†. Heb 6:18-20 . . we may have strong encouragement, we who have fled for refuge in laying hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

If there were no literal lake of fire to fear, then there would be no motivation to flee for refuge to a priest of the order of Melchizedek. People who stayed on the beach to watch the incoming tsunami of 2004 were caught by it with no chance to escape. Had they been warned in time, they could have made a run for it to high ground and lived. You have been given a chance that they never had. I would advise you to make the most of it while there's still time.

†. Heb 3:7-8 . . Therefore, as the Holy Ghost testifies: Today (while it's called today) if you would hear His voice, do not stiffen your resolve.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Webers_Home · May 21, 2009

.
RE: Do you think there is actually a 'book of Life'?

Moses thought it was real.

. Ex 32:32-33 . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And Yhvh said unto Moses: Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

David thought it was real.

. Ps 69:28 . . Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

John was dispatched with a letter to the church at Sardis containing a comment about the book.

. Rev 3:5-6 . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Webers_Home · May 21, 2009

.
I heard of a preacher who was once asked what one would have to do to go to Hell. He answered: Nothing at all; just bide your time; it's the default. Yes, that is one of Jesus' more serious statements that isn't getting enough press these days and it's located in John 3:14-18.

In Num 21:5-9, God's people were infested with a swarm of deadly snakes that He himself sent among them for punishment. Every bite was 100% fatal, no exceptions. So when the people realized their predicament, they admitted their sin against God and against Moses and begged him to do something about the snakes. Well . .it was too late for those already bitten, so God instructed Moses to fabricate a fiery-looking viper and hoist it up on a pole; and all that the snake-bite victims had to do to save their lives from certain death was look to the fiery viper. And just as the bites were 100% fatal, no exceptions, so every victim who looked to the fiery viper was 100% cured, no exceptions.

Jesus applied that incident to his crucifixion in John 3:14-18. So then, according to the incident, everyone who looks to Jesus' crucifixion for a ransom to rescue their souls from the wrath of God is guaranteed 100% safety from the horrible reservoir of liquid flame that John saw in the book of Revelation. Conversely, everyone who hasn't as yet looked to Jesus' crucifixion for a ransom to rescue their souls from the wrath of God is 100% damned to the lake already; no exceptions, no delay, and no waiting period.

The only act of faith the snakebite victims had to perform was just "look to" the fiery viper and they would be cured. You know what it means to look to something? It means to fully depend upon it. Moses hoisted the viper up on a pole high enough where everyone could see it, and all in the world they had to do was go and look at it. Thus, Jesus' crucifixion is an opportunity for everybody, because everybody is, with no exceptions, quite literally a dead man walking.

. John 5:25 . . I assure you, an hour is coming and now is, when the Dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live.

. 2Cor 5:14 . . because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead

. Eph 2:1 . . And to you he has given life, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Within the context of John 3:14-18, anybody who has yet to fully depend upon Jesus' crucifixion to protect themselves from the wrath of God is an unbeliever, and already condemned, no waiting period. So condemnation isn't the option, no, condemnation is the default: life is the option, and according to Jesus' testimony as an expert witness in matters pertaining to the afterlife, the majority have not been obtaining it.

Someone might be inclined to protest and ask how I can label people who never heard the gospel unbelievers? That's simple. Unbelief isn't just an act of the will; it's also a state of ignorance. If people have yet to trust Jesus' crucifixion to protect themselves from the wrath of God merely because they've never heard about him, then they abide in a state of unbelief: that's the default; and that's primarily what motivates missionaries to travel the ends of the earth to foreign lands and peoples. Eternal life is granted only to believers. So if you don't know, then of course you don't believe.

. Rom 10:14-17 . . How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall preachers preach, except they be sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith: Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You see, ignorance is neither an excuse nor a loop hole; and if there were some snake-bitten Jews who weren't informed about Moses' fiery viper in time, then they died because the bites were 100% fatal, no exceptions. In point of fact, quite a few did die before the viper was constructed in time to save them (Num 21:6) and unfortunately, millions have already passed on to Hell and eternal suffering simply because they didn't know any better. It is the Bible God's desire that all men be spared; but He's also willing to settle for whatever He can get.

. Mark 16:16 . . He that believes and is baptized shall be spared; but he that disbelieves shall be damned.

. John 3:18 . . There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God.

. John 3:36 . . All who believe in God's Son have eternal life. Those who disbelieve the Son will never see life; but the wrath of God remains upon them.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Rajni · May 21, 2009

Webers_Home said:
Mtt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Amen. Few find it. But does everything stop there? The
above verse states that few will find the narrow gateway
and difficult road to life. Now, since our salvation is not
based on human effort or our works, should we conclude that
this verse is telling us that a literal "good work" on our part
is required of finding a literal gateway or walking along a
rugged road located somewhere? Or could it be a case that
Jesus was speaking in figurative terms here?

The fact that few find Jesus is not much of a shocker, when
we read in Romans 3:9-12:

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all;
for we have already charged that both Jews and
Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, 'There is
none righteous, not even one; there is none who
understands, there is no one who seeks for God;
all have turned aside, together they have become
useless; there is none who does good, there is not
even one.'"

"Not even one". So yes, few there be that find it is right.
But while there are few that find Him, how many does He
find? Now that gets interesting! The parable of the lost coin
being sought with no rest until it's found sheds some light
on this. This parable isnt about people seeking God until
they find Him, because, as we just saw in Romans 3 above,
nobody does that. So interpreting such a parable to say that
they do would be to contradict this fact. No, those
parables are talking about God looking for each and every
last member of humankind until He finds them and brings
them to Himself. If Luke 15:4 is any indicator, Jesus is
taking very seriously His mission to seek and save the lost.
No one will be left behind.

Mtt 22:14 . . For many are invited, but _few are chosen_.

Few were chosen, yes, but ultimately everyone will be.
(Luke 3:6, for starters)

*.* Rev 21:8 . . The unbelieving shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Since death itself is abolished (2 Timothy 1:10), how long
do you think the 2nd death will last?

If you have seen this topic as a glorification of Hell, rather than the grave danger and the graphic horror that it is really is, then you have not been paying attention.

No, its precisely because I have been paying attention that
I came to the conclusion about the topic that I did.

If death were the endless misery that orthodoxy portrays it
as, then Jesus, who died in our place, would still be
experiencing that. As we know, He is not. So whatever death
is, its not the endless torment its advertised to be by
many. 1 Corinthians 15:22 and Romans 5 both tell us that
all those who are under the influence of Adam's
transgression will be brought into Christ's life. I am not
about to conclude that Adam, in his feeble human state, was
more successful at imputing death onto everyone than Christ
-- who is God Himself incarnate -- will be at imputing life
onto everyone.

Is the great commission about Hell? My God yes! Take away the prospect of Hell, and reliance upon Christ's crucifixion as an adequate price to ransom men's souls from the wrath of God becomes an option rather than a desperate necessity.

How do you conclude that? Scripture says we love Him because He first loved us. It doesnt say we love Him because He threatened us with endless agony if we dont.

.

Rajni · May 21, 2009

Webers_Home said:
Someone might be inclined to protest and ask how I can label people who never heard the gospel unbelievers? That's simple. Unbelief isn't just an act of the will; it's also a state of ignorance. If people have yet to trust Jesus' crucifixion to protect themselves from the wrath of God merely because they've never heard about him, then they abide in a state of unbelief: that's the default; and that's primarily what motivates missionaries to travel the ends of the earth to foreign lands and peoples. Eternal life is granted only to believers. So if you don't know, then of course you don't believe.

How powerful do you think God is if His power to save is
only as good as a frail human’s ability to perceive and
believe it?

What people who preach “turn or burn” don’t seem to realize
is how much more powerful they make Adam look. Did
anyone have to believe in Adam to be influenced by his
transgression? No, and yet Adam’s transgression reached
every nook and cranny of mankind. Yet God Himself ... well,
His hands are tied and He can’t do much for anyone unless
they make the first move and believe. Somehow that just
doesn't seem to add up.

Scripture tells us that in the same way all died in Adam (did
they die via belief in Adam? No.), so also will they be made
alive in Christ. And Romans 5 goes into more detail about
that same principle.

Belief doesn’t create the reality; it’s the other way around. A
person cannot be told to believe in something if it isn’t
already true, right? Jesus is already the Savior of the lost
(they’re the reason He came to save) – they just need to
align their beliefs to fit that reality. It’s not a case that the
reality isn’t real until they decide to believe it. Insane
asylums are filled with people who believe things that aren’t
real. God isn’t calling us to believe something that isn’t
already true for each and every one us.

.

Hell's Pop Clock

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beside quiet waters He restores my soul..

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