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Hell's creation etc. A few questions.

Valo

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Hell is a place of torment and suffering
Well how could God create it when torment and suffering are products of sin, and God can't touch sin?

So if God couldn't create it then who did?

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41).
Prepared for them, not by them. So they couldn't have done it could they? SO therfore God created this place, with this evil within it meant for punishing people?

And Hell is a place devoid of God's presence, its evil etc, God can't touch evil. But yet he's supposedly omnipresent so how could there be a place where he isn't?



 

WickedServant

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Valo said:
Hell is a place of torment and suffering
Well how could God create it when torment and suffering are products of sin, and God can't touch sin?

So if God couldn't create it then who did?

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41).
Prepared for them, not by them. So they couldn't have done it could they? SO therfore God created this place, with this evil within it meant for punishing people?

And Hell is a place devoid of God's presence, its evil etc, God can't touch evil. But yet he's supposedly omnipresent so how could there be a place where he isn't?




What if...

Heaven and hell are the same physical place, and what is spoken about them are descriptions about what eternity will be like?

Have you ever seen the movie The Crow? Great movie. There is a line in it that I think about often: "Abashed, the Devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is." Probably a quote from John Milton or somebody. Have you seen Stigmata? Not as good, but another great line: "The Kingdom of God is inside you." Makes perfect sense of what St.Paul said, then: "Do not be decieved, God is not mocked; what one sows one shall also reap."

So then. "What we do in life, echoes in eternity." All these things, well said, hinting that what we make of ourselves here and now, is of the utmost importance. And if the kingdom of God is inside you, or the raw materials for it, it also stands to reason that the kingdom of hell can be, or the materials for it.

May you be blessed.
 
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Valo

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eoe: So God created a place of sufferring and torment? Aren't those things associated with sin? But God cannot touch sin. If God created this cruel place then he cannot be completely good? Can he?

And WickedServant if inside us is the materials to create Hell then God gave us that? He created it? Something, of suffering? I wouldn't think an all loving God would inflict that on people.
 
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missionette

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Valo said:
eoe: So God created a place of sufferring and torment? Aren't those things associated with sin? But God cannot touch sin. If God created this cruel place then he cannot be completely good? Can he?

And WickedServant if inside us is the materials to create Hell then God gave us that? He created it? Something, of suffering? I wouldn't think an all loving God would inflict that on people.
Just a quick childish quote...

"Your parents discipline you because they love you."

Our parents are supposed to represent God in our lives (I know this is not always true), so like our parents, God disciplines us because and even though he loves us.

Don't be fooled into playing the role of the innocent bi-stander lead to the slaughter. Everyone has messed up and has been given an entire lifetime to ask for forgiveness. If that's not love, I really don't know what is...

As for Hell, the Bible doesn't mention it specifically, but I know what you mean. Now think about the laws set up to protect the US president. If anyone makes any single threat about the president, they are considered criminals. Since God is so much more important and awesome - in the old sense of the term - , imagine how bad it would be for anyone to threaten him. Of course, nothing could actually happen to God, but someone so hateful and jealous as Lucifer could never be allowed to remain in God's presence and reside under his name.

Lucifer and his fallen angels chose "Hell", as many of us do now. On a much smaller scale, when we get a spanking or get scolded, it's because we chose to be disobedient, not because our parents are evil.

missionette
 
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Valo

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Yes but your parents don't condemn you to eternal punishment, they punish you so that you learn from it. Can you work your way out of Hell?

Hell seems like an evil place though. I'm not asking why he made it, but how he made such a place of suffering when God supposedly is so full of love. I was taught that he couldn't touch evil, not that he is evil himself, but Hell, is not exactely a loving place. And it doesn't seem to be created out of love, but out of a hate of sin.
 
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onikirimaru777

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Eoe, very interesting article and it makes alot of sense. However, as a Universalist (of the Christian sort), I must ask the question: what is eternity in the Divine Plan of God? When looking at the flames of God in a metaphorical sense, we understand that they aren't for punishment, but for purification. I humbly believe that the very burning Pressence of God afflicting sinnners with their regrets and former sins doesn't last forever. No, I believe that the flames of God purify the souls of the sinner by Christ's blood alone, like a lump of impure silver, and eventually we all come to the realization of God's Love and inherit the Kingdom of God. That is my belief, and I can provide some sources in which I drew that belief from. God bless.

--Oni
 
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Valo - did you read the article? You sate:
So God created a place of sufferring and torment?
But the article says:
The idea that God is an angry figure who sends those He condemns to a place called Hell, where they spend eternity in torment separated from His presence, is missing from the Bible and unknown in the early church. While Heaven and Hell are decidedly real, they are experiential conditions rather than physical places, and both exist in the presence of God. In fact, nothing exists outside the presence of God.
This is not the way traditional Western Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, has envisioned the afterlife. In Western thought Hell is a location, a place where God punishes the wicked, where they are cut off from God and the Kingdom of Heaven. Yet this concept occurs nowhere in the Bible, and does not exist in the original languages of the Bible.

The ancient and historic and *CURRENT* view of the Eastern Orthodox Church is that Hell is NOT a place.

You also state:
But God cannot touch sin.
What gives you this idea? Chirst touched tax collectors, lepers, the sick - all manner of sinners while he was on earth.

The idea that there is a place where God is not is totally western and is a modern innovation.

If God created this cruel place then he cannot be completely good? Can he?

Read the article please. It is quite good.


I must ask the question: what is eternity in the Divine Plan of God?

In order to understand time a little better I offer you THIS.
There are 2 kinds of time - Chronos and Xayros. Maybe that will help you - if not please pm me or respond here.

When looking at the flames of God in a metaphorical sense, we understand that they aren't for punishment, but for purification.
ehh..
Read what Saint Isaac the Syrian says:
those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!

Then read THIS.

No, I believe that the flames of God purify the souls of the sinner by Christ's blood alone, like a lump of impure silver, and eventually we all come to the realization of God's Love and inherit the Kingdom of God. That is my belief, and I can provide some sources in which I drew that belief from. God bless.

I have no doubt that you can provide some sort of justification for the belief but it still remains a heterodox belief. I don't fault you for this - I fault the modern - Dante inspired western "theologians" that make God into an angry tyrant and reduce salvation to a juridical forgiveness of sin and nothing more.

You think that these people are going to learn to love that which is causing them such pain? No. Those in hell want one thing and that is God's death. They will want to be free of him and they want nothing else. While this view of hell shows that God can indeed be good and hell still be real - it does not make hell into a playground or a soul refinery.

To understand this better you can read this (Caution - the River of Fire is a pretty heavy document and should not be taken as 100% concrete Orthodoxy. As Hell is ultimately a mystery - the Orthodox have some room in their beliefs about hell. Please do not read this and freak out. oni- yes I realize this is a long document but it is well worth reading. If you want a text to speech program to help you can download one HERE)
 
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intricatic

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Valo said:
eoe: So God created a place of sufferring and torment? Aren't those things associated with sin? But God cannot touch sin. If God created this cruel place then he cannot be completely good? Can he?

And WickedServant if inside us is the materials to create Hell then God gave us that? He created it? Something, of suffering? I wouldn't think an all loving God would inflict that on people.
God did not create evil. He also did not create Hell, imho. It's circumstantially a result of choices we make. Because we can make choices, it bears to logic that those choices dictate how we live our lives, and as a consequence, how we exist in eternity. For eternity exists even in this temporal place, it exists in each individual, and it manifests itself in each decision we make. Essentially God felt that it was a worthwhile risk to take in giving us Free Will, perhaps because He felt it would be the only way to make us perfect in our ability to exist in this world, even unto our imperfefctions. That question is still a mystery to me, but one day in my own eternity it'll be answered.

WickedServant said:
What if...

Heaven and hell are the same physical place, and what is spoken about them are descriptions about what eternity will be like?

Have you ever seen the movie The Crow? Great movie. There is a line in it that I think about often: "Abashed, the Devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is." Probably a quote from John Milton or somebody. Have you seen Stigmata? Not as good, but another great line: "The Kingdom of God is inside you." Makes perfect sense of what St.Paul said, then: "Do not be decieved, God is not mocked; what one sows one shall also reap."

So then. "What we do in life, echoes in eternity." All these things, well said, hinting that what we make of ourselves here and now, is of the utmost importance. And if the kingdom of God is inside you, or the raw materials for it, it also stands to reason that the kingdom of hell can be, or the materials for it.

May you be blessed.
A kindred spirit! Ha ha... :D :thumbsup:

Very true post, I like how you use quotes from those movies, too. All things exist for God's glory. :)
 
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intricatic

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Valo said:
As in, have any part in it. Create a supposed hell which which to condemn Lucifer to, although he 'chose it'. I'm sure he actually chose to try and steal Heaven from God right? So technically he chose that but it failed?
In essence, you might consider that Satan wants to "Rebuild" Heaven in his own image, just as he wants to rebuild man in his own image. Because of that choice, Satan exists as the reverse of what God represents to creation.

You could also consider God's part in the creation of Hell as allowing Satan to have what he wants. That doesn't mean God created Hell in the sense of building it the same way He built Heaven and Earth and all the rest of existence, but that He didn't deny the choices of the will of man and Satan, circumstantially. The same can be said for all people who follow his [Satan's] designs.

Free Will dictates that we are allowed to chose what we want in this life. In essence, it also means we can chose in the sense that we have the ability to drive our own wants or desires into eternity. The choice pertinent to eternity manifests itself in our choices now, every single day.
 
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heron

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God can't touch sin?

If you consider Jesus part of the trinity...the triune God, then God touched sin every day for 30-33 years.

I don't think the lake of fire was originally intended for people.

Mt 25:41Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

 
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doc8645

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Valo;
Your particular expressed viewpoint or puzzlement as well as other doctrinal traditions posed by different christian factions is what initially turned me aside to christianity in general, but thru investigation I found not all segments of christianity have this illogical viewpoint of our loving God as a wrathful tyranical dictator type. Through reading and research IMO I found these to be somewhat of fear type factor doctrines geared to get people to church.

So, first off, God is not willing that any be lost, the fire and brimstone is reserved for the devil and his minions who have no desire for goodness. But, because He is a loving God, He won't force us either, He stands at your heart and knocks, but you have to let Him in, He won't force Himself on anybody.

And about God can't touch sin, I believe that may be a little misinterpreted cause I don't think there's anything God can't do, just that He chooses not to. I believe it states something like sin can't exist in the presence of God, and darkness can't exist where there's light. This is why when Moses wanted to see God it wasn't possible, not because God was rude, haughty, or arrogant, but because His goodness would have destroyed Moses due to our everpresence of sin in us. Like with Jesus in the garden where He took on the sins of the world He had to divorce Himself from the Father, and He sweated and cried tears of blood. You have to understand They were One and never separated before and its unimagainable how hollow and alone Jesus probably felt and why He thought He was forsaken and aabandoned, all for us, I might add.

OK, heres where I kinda part company with some christian doctrinal teaching. Where the Bible and Jesus say we sleep in the grave, then thats who I believe. We sleep in the grave until the resurrection, Martha and Mary believed that and even stated that to Jesus and He never corrected them when He brought back Lazarus, who if he was in heaven for that period of time would seem to have a lot to say about it, yet said nothing?

I realize each of these comments could be a whole topic in and of themselves, but thats what I believe. Plus, the way words are used need to be researched as to history, traditions, and customs like forever, eternal, etc. cause your right, eternal punishment and torture is not the intention nor is it in the very nature and character of our loving God.

The operative word here is "punishment", not punishing! Punishing is soemthing continual, punishment is something that has a begining and an end. God is not horrific, He's a loving God not willing that any should suffer, but even if you chose to, He's merciful and puts an end to suffering in sin. I don't know if I've worded or explained this succinctly enough but basicly if something, verse or doctrine dosen't line up with God's charater then that's what needs to be investigated, not God, He won't let you down. Hope somehow this helps.

doc8645
 
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WickedServant

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intricatic said:
A kindred spirit! Ha ha... :D :thumbsup:

Very true post, I like how you use quotes from those movies, too. All things exist for God's glory. :)

Thanks! ;)

I don't think Valo understands what I'm trying to tell him, though, that "I have the hammer and the nails" (Lean On Me, Morgan Freeman) ....and so does everyone else.

Because of free will, we can build prisons, or we can build palaces - metaphorically speaking.

Valo, it might help if you set aside, just for a moment, this idea that hell is some island perpetually on fire where God unfairly ships all the bad guys to so he can watch them squirm.

Then perhaps, with an open mind, slowly read eoe's 2nd post.

May you be blessed.
 
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bunnysfriend

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doc8645 said:
Valo;
Your particular expressed viewpoint or puzzlement as well as other doctrinal traditions posed by different christian factions is what initially turned me aside to christianity in general, but thru investigation I found not all segments of christianity have this illogical viewpoint of our loving God as a wrathful tyranical dictator type. Through reading and research IMO I found these to be somewhat of fear type factor doctrines geared to get people to church.

So, first off, God is not willing that any be lost, the fire and brimstone is reserved for the devil and his minions who have no desire for goodness. But, because He is a loving God, He won't force us either, He stands at your heart and knocks, but you have to let Him in, He won't force Himself on anybody.

And about God can't touch sin, I believe that may be a little misinterpreted cause I don't think there's anything God can't do, just that He chooses not to. I believe it states something like sin can't exist in the presence of God, and darkness can't exist where there's light. This is why when Moses wanted to see God it wasn't possible, not because God was rude, haughty, or arrogant, but because His goodness would have destroyed Moses due to our everpresence of sin in us. Like with Jesus in the garden where He took on the sins of the world He had to divorce Himself from the Father, and He sweated and cried tears of blood. You have to understand They were One and never separated before and its unimagainable how hollow and alone Jesus probably felt and why He thought He was forsaken and aabandoned, all for us, I might add.

OK, heres where I kinda part company with some christian doctrinal teaching. Where the Bible and Jesus say we sleep in the grave, then thats who I believe. We sleep in the grave until the resurrection, Martha and Mary believed that and even stated that to Jesus and He never corrected them when He brought back Lazarus, who if he was in heaven for that period of time would seem to have a lot to say about it, yet said nothing?

I realize each of these comments could be a whole topic in and of themselves, but thats what I believe. Plus, the way words are used need to be researched as to history, traditions, and customs like forever, eternal, etc. cause your right, eternal punishment and torture is not the intention nor is it in the very nature and character of our loving God.

The operative word here is "punishment", not punishing! Punishing is soemthing continual, punishment is something that has a begining and an end. God is not horrific, He's a loving God not willing that any should suffer, but even if you chose to, He's merciful and puts an end to suffering in sin. I don't know if I've worded or explained this succinctly enough but basicly if something, verse or doctrine dosen't line up with God's charater then that's what needs to be investigated, not God, He won't let you down. Hope somehow this helps.

doc8645
interesting post. just out of curiosity, what do you think happens to non-christians after death? if you dont believe in eternal tourment, do you believe the soul is completely destroyed, no longer conscious or able to 'feel' anything, just complete non-existance. or do you belived that there will be some from of punishment or 'cleansing' before all are reconciled with God? or do you believe something completely different?
 
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WickedServant

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doc8645 said:
Valo;
Your particular expressed viewpoint or puzzlement as well as other doctrinal traditions posed by different christian factions is what initially turned me aside to christianity in general, but thru investigation I found not all segments of christianity have this illogical viewpoint of our loving God as a wrathful tyranical dictator type. Through reading and research IMO I found these to be somewhat of fear type factor doctrines geared to get people to church.

So, first off, God is not willing that any be lost, the fire and brimstone is reserved for the devil and his minions who have no desire for goodness. But, because He is a loving God, He won't force us either, He stands at your heart and knocks, but you have to let Him in, He won't force Himself on anybody.

And about God can't touch sin, I believe that may be a little misinterpreted cause I don't think there's anything God can't do, just that He chooses not to. I believe it states something like sin can't exist in the presence of God, and darkness can't exist where there's light. This is why when Moses wanted to see God it wasn't possible, not because God was rude, haughty, or arrogant, but because His goodness would have destroyed Moses due to our everpresence of sin in us. Like with Jesus in the garden where He took on the sins of the world He had to divorce Himself from the Father, and He sweated and cried tears of blood. You have to understand They were One and never separated before and its unimagainable how hollow and alone Jesus probably felt and why He thought He was forsaken and aabandoned, all for us, I might add.

OK, heres where I kinda part company with some christian doctrinal teaching. Where the Bible and Jesus say we sleep in the grave, then thats who I believe. We sleep in the grave until the resurrection, Martha and Mary believed that and even stated that to Jesus and He never corrected them when He brought back Lazarus, who if he was in heaven for that period of time would seem to have a lot to say about it, yet said nothing?

I realize each of these comments could be a whole topic in and of themselves, but thats what I believe. Plus, the way words are used need to be researched as to history, traditions, and customs like forever, eternal, etc. cause your right, eternal punishment and torture is not the intention nor is it in the very nature and character of our loving God.

The operative word here is "punishment", not punishing! Punishing is soemthing continual, punishment is something that has a begining and an end. God is not horrific, He's a loving God not willing that any should suffer, but even if you chose to, He's merciful and puts an end to suffering in sin. I don't know if I've worded or explained this succinctly enough but basicly if something, verse or doctrine dosen't line up with God's charater then that's what needs to be investigated, not God, He won't let you down. Hope somehow this helps.

doc8645

Nice post.

He also said "Truthfully, there are some of those standing here that shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."

Which lends weight to heaven and hell being something achievable in this lifetime...
 
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