Hello from a nontheist

[BarkAtTheMoon]

I dont intend on being banned from this forum. But Im sure I will be... I am an atheist studying the outlines of religion. I have a simple question. Why do we need god to be good? What drives someone to faith?

Thanks ahead of time.

 

[billypayton]

Dear Lord this person needs you, I pray you give him answers
to he needs. I know you love him, and he has faith in you, in
Jesus Name, Amen!

 

[servant of Merciful Love]

Welcome to CF
As long as you follow the Rules you should be fine!
The forum headings state which ones are 'Christian only'.
If you have any questions just ask a moderator.
Praying you find the answers you seek
Enjoy the forums!

 

[BarkAtTheMoon]

Dear Lord this person needs you, I pray you give him answers
to he needs. I know you love him, and he has faith in you, in
Jesus Name, Amen!

Praying you find the answers you seek
Enjoy the forums!

See to someone in real need of help here you have literally offered me nothing... If someone prayed to a milk jug the results would be the same, yes, no, and maybe. Yes, the milk jug would instantly help me with my problem. No, obviously it didn't want me to be helped for a better cause. Maybe down the road the milk jug would help me... Its a magic trick...

Dear Milk Jug this person needs you, I pray you give him answers
to he needs. I know thy inanimate object loves him, and he has faith in thy inanimate object, in
the magical Milk jugs Name, Amen!


By the way this is not meant to be offensive I'm only pointing out what I see as an atheist. Lets try this, I am a nonbeliever and want to convert to christianity. I need some real deep answers to help me understand. Seeing that I come from a very heavy scientific background.

 

[servant of Merciful Love]

You will get better discussion/responses in these forums Outreach
This is just the new member intro forum

 

[abysmul]

Welcome, read the rules, follow them, and you'll be fine here.

Take some time to study the various sub forums, you very well may see many answers already given to your questions.

 

[BarkAtTheMoon]

You will get better discussion/responses in these forums outreach
This is just the new member intro forum

Thats a great idea. Are you a mod that could move that into the "Exploring Christianity" section for me?

If not could you direct me to someone that could move it?

 

[Catherineanne]

I dont intend on being banned from this forum. But Im sure I will be... I am an atheist studying the outlines of religion. I have a simple question. Why do we need god to be good? What drives someone to faith?

Thanks ahead of time.

Hi, nice to meet you.

I would say, take a look at evil people; really evil ones. Psychopaths, Narcissists, seriously anti social people. They do not understand love, and do not ever demonstrate anything other than selfishness. Everything is manipulation, coercion and crazymaking.

If God were the same, there would be no love in the universe. The fact that mankind, fallen as we are, is capable of altruism, selflessness even to the point of giving our lives for other people, sometimes even complete strangers, is evidence that God is a God of love.

I don't expect you to be convinced by this, of course, but that would be my answer. And if you respond by saying that surely the opposite must pertain; the existence of evil proves that God must be evil, I would say that evil is not a positive, but a negative.

Evil exists wherever selfless, giving love is not present. As in the Narcissist.

As for what drives someone to faith, that is also God. If you have not found faith as yet, then God has not compelled you sufficiently as yet. We are never the agents of our own faith, or our own belief. It is always the Lord. Give it time.

 

[Catherineanne]

Lets try this, I am a nonbeliever and want to convert to christianity. I need some real deep answers to help me understand. Seeing that I come from a very heavy scientific background.

Use what you have; the Lord will meet you where you are, you don't have to get to where he is.

The question to ask, as with any scientific study, is this; what evidence do I need to convince me? Assume a hypothesis, formulate an experiment, and try it out. Start small, and keep going.

It is that simple. Don't assume that all believers have to ditch rational or logical thought; some choose to do that. Most don't.

 

[servant of Merciful Love]

Thats a great idea. Are you a mod that could move that into the "Exploring Christianity" section for me?

If not could you direct me to someone that could move it?

I just stepped down from modding, but I will ask someone to move it for you * It may take a day or so for them to do it

ETA: I put in the request and also flagged a mod to do it if they are available

 

[Dark_Lite]

Moved to Exploring Christianity.

 

[BarkAtTheMoon]

Hi, nice to meet you.

I would say, take a look at evil people; really evil ones. Psychopaths, Narcissists, seriously anti social people. They do not understand love, and do not ever demonstrate anything other than selfishness. Everything is manipulation, coercion and crazymaking.

If God were the same, there would be no love in the universe. The fact that mankind, fallen as we are, is capable of altruism, selflessness even to the point of giving our lives for other people, sometimes even complete strangers, is evidence that God is a God of love.

I don't expect you to be convinced by this, of course, but that would be my answer. And if you respond by saying that surely the opposite must pertain; the existence of evil proves that God must be evil, I would say that evil is not a positive, but a negative.

Evil exists wherever selfless, giving love is not present. As in the Narcissist.

As for what drives someone to faith, that is also God. If you have not found faith as yet, then God has not compelled you sufficiently as yet. We are never the agents of our own faith, or our own belief. It is always the Lord. Give it time.

Athough I must say that I will never be particularly fond of religion I will say thank you for the honest answer you have given me. My only thought on it would be to ask this. The insane don't have total control over their minds, this can be shown by science.

In the fact that I do not believe in a god or a devil, I dont believe in a religious form of evil. Evil is a foul human aspect, its part of human selfishness. Our brains are not fully equipped to understand this. In all honesty I feel the real background of religions is the every burning question "where did this all come from?" We as humans have a insatiable appetite to learn and to understand. My biggest problem with religion is this, science and religion cannot both fit into one world. With one requiring blind faith and the other being fact based only they are to rugged for one another.

 

[solarwave]

I have a simple question. Why do we need god to be good? What drives someone to faith?

Thanks ahead of time.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'need God to be good'?

I would say people are probably driven to faith by values that can't be broken down and tested, such as meaning, purpose, morality, a sense of the divine, otherness. Other things might be a fear of death, being brought up in a Christian home, the need to change, religious experience, reason, why is there something rather than literally nothing. There are probably things I have missed too.

My biggest problem with religion is this, science and religion cannot both fit into one world. With one requiring blind faith and the other being fact based only they are to rugged for one another.

I hope you don't mind me answering also.

Don't you think that faith and science tend to deal with different parts of the human experience? Science is concerned with the physical whereas faith is concerned with the non-physical generally.

 

[elman]

I dont intend on being banned from this forum. But Im sure I will be... I am an atheist studying the outlines of religion. I have a simple question. Why do we need god to be good? What drives someone to faith?

Thanks ahead of time.

If good is defined as being loving and compassionate for someone in need--then we don't need God to do that. It seems we have that ability. I don't know that anything drives someone to faith, but one of the things that encourages us to search for faith is the hope for meaning and a destiny other than oblivion.

 

[razeontherock]

Hi to the OP and welcome to CF! Also hello to Catherineanne Quite a heartfelt and thought out response as usual.

I wonder how many here recognize the username?

YouTube - ‪Ozzy - Bark At The Moon‬‏

Was that really the only album with Randy Rhodes on it? And I don't believe Ozzy was really satanic or promoting it. Riding image for popularity, and warnings if anything of substance.

Athough I must say that I will never be particularly fond of religion

Neither am I but getting into that may be for another thread.

The insane don't have total control over their minds, this can be shown by science.

Then our species is insane. I think the social sciences show this to be true.

In My biggest problem with religion is this, science and religion cannot both fit into one world. With one requiring blind faith and the other being fact based only they are to rugged for one another.

I don't see myself as being able to work as a scientist while being a believer so I sympathize with what you say, but many many do this very thing. We have some good working scientists who are also good Christians here on CF. So I challenge your thinking on this point!

 

[razeontherock]

Why do we need god to be good?

I'm not sure this question is answerable. It is addressable, and you have shown a bias that I will word thusly: religion is man's efforts to reach up to G-d. This is futile, and results in the atheist accusation of "creating a god after your own image" being correct.

Christianity is G-d reaching down to man.

What drives someone to faith?

This question is answerable. Many of us have detailed testimonies of exactly this, in our profiles. I know I wrote one out, and the CF gremlins wiped it out. (Yes that is a technical term) I wrote another but did so more quickly, and really am not sure what is even there.

I suspect what you will find is many many of us here are real Christians, and come from all walks of life and widely varying backgrounds. I suspect you might find some elements in common. I would be curious to read any conclusion you might draw.

In short, I came to the Lord via cold, hard logic.

 

[Catherineanne]

Athough I must say that I will never be particularly fond of religion I will say thank you for the honest answer you have given me. My only thought on it would be to ask this. The insane don't have total control over their minds, this can be shown by science.

None of us has total control over our minds, darling. We are fortunate if we can achieve control over our behaviour, but our minds, well, that would take some doing.

As for Psychopaths and Narcissists, who says they are insane? Have you read the psychological assessments of those on trial at Nuremberg after the war? They were pronounced sane; they knew the difference between good and evil. This is far more chilling than insanity.

Narcissists are not insane, they are simply supremely selfish, to the point of not realising that other people exist.

In the fact that I do not believe in a god or a devil, I dont believe in a religious form of evil. Evil is a foul human aspect, its part of human selfishness. Our brains are not fully equipped to understand this. In all honesty I feel the real background of religions is the every burning question "where did this all come from?" We as humans have a insatiable appetite to learn and to understand. My biggest problem with religion is this, science and religion cannot both fit into one world. With one requiring blind faith and the other being fact based only they are to rugged for one another.

I don't believe in a religious form of evil either. What I was trying to say is that just as darkness is an absence of light, rather than an actuality, so evil is an absence of good.

Good may derive from faith, or it may derive from a person's innate principles. Atheists are just as capable of selfless love as theists, of course. But from a believer's pov, whenever an atheist demonstrates this selfless, giving love, that love derives from God, whether the atheist knows it or not; all love comes from God, and when we reveal that real selfless love, we also demonstrate the reality of man made in God's image. The evidence is there, if you choose to recognise it. This is true of all evidence. If the other scientists refuse to accept it, it is invalid. If they choose to accept it, it is valid. No science is truly objective.

My faith is not one of blind anything. I accept scientists, and their findings, as telling me how the world was made, how old it is, etc etc. I don't feel authorised or knowlegable enough to write off the whole of science, and my denomination (Anglican/Episcopalian) certainly respects science and what it has to teach us.

To me, science and faith are not in competition, and there is no reason for them ever to be. Science tells me how, faith tells me why; they are two sides of the same coin; that of truth. Either one without the other is pretty well meaningless, to me.

 

[Catherineanne]

Hi to the OP and welcome to CF! Also hello to Catherineanne Quite a heartfelt and thought out response as usual.

Hiya RR. I haven't been around for a while, because of a family bereavement. However, here I am again.

 

[BarkAtTheMoon]

We are chemistry, everything else is details. I doubt that religion can survive deep understanding. The shallows are its natural habitat. Cranks and fundamentalists are too often victimised as scapegoats for religion in general. It is only quite recently that Christianity reinvented itself in non-fundamentalist guise, and Islam has yet to do so (see Ibn Warraq's excellent book, Why I am not a Muslim). Moonies and scientologists get a bad press, but they just haven't been around as long as the accepted religions. Theology is a respectable discipline when it studies such subjects as moral philosophy, the psychology of religious belief and, above all, biblical history and literature. Like Bertie Wooster, my knowledge of the Bible is above average. I seem to know Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon almost by heart. I think that the Bible as literature should be a compulsory part of the national curriculum - you can't understand English literature and culture without it. But insofar as theology studies the nature of the divine, it will earn the right to be taken seriously when it provides the slightest, smallest smidgen of a reason for believing in the existence of the divine. Meanwhile, we should devote as much time to studying serious theology as we devote to studying serious fairies and serious unicorns.

 

[ebia]

We are chemistry, everything else is details. I doubt that religion can survive deep understanding. The shallows are its natural habitat. Cranks and fundamentalists are too often victimised as scapegoats for religion in general. It is only quite recently that Christianity reinvented itself in non-fundamentalist guise, and Islam has yet to do so (see Ibn Warraq's excellent book, Why I am not a Muslim). Moonies and scientologists get a bad press, but they just haven't been around as long as the accepted religions. Theology is a respectable discipline when it studies such subjects as moral philosophy, the psychology of religious belief and, above all, biblical history and literature. Like Bertie Wooster, my knowledge of the Bible is above average. I seem to know Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon almost by heart. I think that the Bible as literature should be a compulsory part of the national curriculum - you can't understand English literature and culture without it. But insofar as theology studies the nature of the divine, it will earn the right to be taken seriously when it provides the slightest, smallest smidgen of a reason for believing in the existence of the divine. Meanwhile, we should devote as much time to studying serious theology as we devote to studying serious fairies and serious unicorns.

Perhaps you would like to read "Theology and Quantum Mechanics" by particle physicist turned theologian John Polkinghorne, in which he spells out how hard science and theology are similar and how and why they differ.