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Hello from a nontheist

lucaspa

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Darwin was clearly afraid to fully come out with the true belief that he had at the time.
Not at all. He was quite clear to put his theistic belief into Origin several times. What is more, even after he moved more toward agnosticism, he was always ready to admit that, at the time he wrote Origin, he was a theist. See the chapter "Never An Atheist" in Desmond and Moore's exhaustive biography Darwin. Otherwise check Origin of Species. It's online at http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F391&viewtype=text&pageseq=1

Einstein is quoted numerous times saying that he did not believe in a personal god, or any religion, his understanding of god was what was not explainable in the universe.
Yes, Einstein was not a Judeo-Christian, but he was a theist. In the event, he wrecked his scientific career because he insisted "God does not play dice".

However, you are quibbling. Let's add Copernicus, John Napier, Francis Bacon, Rene Descarte, Adam Sedgwick (who taught Darwin geology), Priestly, Mendel, James Clerk Maxwell, Louis Pasteur, Pierre Duhem (a favorite of mine for his "hypotheses are tested in huge bundles" contribution to the philosophy of science), Georges Lemaitre, Robert Bakker, Francisco Ayala, and Freeman Dyson.

Recognize any of these names? :)
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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A better question is would you really want to find that out?

I'm not sure.

Don't you hold the exact chemical makeup which is you personal?

I guess that's the question that I posed to you except rephrased. I believe in a mind-body duality so I would say that the "I" that is me is composed of more than purely material chemicals and compounds.

I feel with the ever fading grey area of science we will know soon enough. In 2008, Dr Joe Tsien literally wiped memory from a rat due to a block on PKMzeta.

You can also wipe memories from a human brain by depriving it of oxygen for six seconds. What's your point?

Now do we want to find out if a soul exists?

I think it would make materialists more satisfied if they could find a material soul. And it would make dualists more satisfied if science could confirm, somehow, in a scientific way the existence of a soul.

I am not totally opposed to the idea that the energy that our body makes might have its own sort of identity.

Interesting. I think most people might call that a soul or mind detached from the material compounds of our body. Maybe you've got a bit of dualism in you ;)

As far as evolution goes, I believe that we hold the paint brush. Natural selection works as such, the most adapted for the environment will survive. This presents a problem for humans, we no longer need to adapt. We make the environment adapt to our needs.

The only thing we can carry out on is Neoevolution, the systematic perfection of the human body. Gene selection, eugenics will soon replace random gene mutation and non random natural selection. Are we ready for Neoevolution? Will god play a factor in it according to a religious standpoint?

EDIT: IMO we have already started this. The medical field is pretty much just that. Natural selection is crude. Its cold with the best intention. Evolution doesn't have any specific goal to obtain. The point of our existence is to carry genes to the next generation. Now when we are living to the limits that modern science allows, I think we pose a real problem for our planet. Jonas Salk put it best "If all the insects on earth disappeared, within 50 years all life on earth would disappear. If all humans disappeared, within 50 years all species would flourish as never before."

Something my parents always told me was this, "god gave us the ability to make this things such as cars, guns, hospitals to help us. He gave us the ingredients sort of speak and we put them together." So if we come up with the ability to create human life from cloning or what have you, is it wrong? God gave us the science and the tools to make it happen.

Saying that god didn't do it, satan made it happen... wait wait hold on this doesnt work. Its a paradox, God gave us free will RIGHT? This hosts a problem for me, god is an all knowing being. When he made you he knew what you would be doing 40 years down the road... How does one posses freewill when their future was always predestined in the first place?

Take my observations however you like. If you really take the time to reach outside of the box and LOOK, its an amazing life, I am so proud that I was a random occurrence in this crazy world. The time I have is wonderful. I live life to the fullest. I have one life and I think its a great way of looking at it. It might seem short and pointless but if you do it just right, one life is enough.

Thanks

I never mentioned evolution in my post. I didn't really intend to start a discussion of neoevolution because I never even suggested that we should or could perform this thought experiment. More just something to consider.

I also chuckled that you corrected my spelling of "behaviour". What's your favourite colour? Did you write a cheque for that vanilla-flavoured ice-cream?

"Behaviour" is equally correct as "behavior". No typo. And no need for fixing. :)
 
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razeontherock

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Some really odd thoughts here:

I am not totally opposed to the idea that the energy that our body makes might have its own sort of identity.

This is not the Biblical "soul." (I can't say it might not be one component of it)

Saying that god didn't do it, satan made it [human ability to clone] happen... wait wait hold on this doesnt work. Its a paradox, God gave us free will RIGHT? This hosts a problem for me, god is an all knowing being. When he made you he knew what you would be doing 40 years down the road... How does one posses freewill when their future was always predestined in the first place?

G-d made you now? Me, I have 2 parents. Yes, Mom says I was hatched, but you don't believe that any more than I do.

You say you hate religion. It's healthy to expose false ideas like these here and hate them as part of a purging process. What do you suppose you'd have after you get rid of the false notions? Me, at that point I found G-d to be perfect.
 
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razeontherock

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Einstein ... his understanding of god was what was not explainable in the universe.

Einstein was anything but perfect, but I have a lot of respect for him. You just painted him as a "God of the gaps" type, which does him a dis-service. I have not read every word the man wrote, but I have encountered the idea that if you could take the sum of all the laws of the Universe, you would have G-d.

That idea does not convey what you said here. What is known is not removed from being G-d. Maybe that's why we still can't understand gravity? It's Divine Law ...
 
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lucaspa

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no mathematical equation has ever found a place for a god. IMO math is the only perfect thing once it reaches a theorem.
:) Oh, this one is too precious.

Have you ever heard of Godel's Theorem. It basically states that, in any mathematics complicated enough to have addition and multiplication, that there are statements in the system that have to be taken as true but cannot be proven from within the system.

"If a 'religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Gödel has taught us that, not only is mathematics a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one." J.D. Barrow in Between Inner Space and Outer Space, Oxford University Press, 1999, p 88.

Now you see why I am smiling. You thought you could use math as "perfect" and to disprove a religion. Instead, what you have done is place your faith in a religion!

You are thinking that there is no term "God" in any mathematical equation. Especially those that describe the universe. However, think about this: Relativity breaks down at singularities. Right now, Relativity is the only math we have to describe gravity and the behavior of the universe at large scales. QM cannot deal with gravity.

The Big Bang is a singularity. So the mathematical equations will not describe the Big Bang. There is one place where, right now, the math has a place for God.
 
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lucaspa

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Einstein was anything but perfect, but I have a lot of respect for him. You just painted him as a "God of the gaps" type, which does him a dis-service. I have not read every word the man wrote, but I have encountered the idea that if you could take the sum of all the laws of the Universe, you would have G-d.
FYI, Einstein was a great physicist (at least until he allowed his beliefs to get in the way of science) but he was a terrible theologian.

Einstein did not believe in a deity that intervened in human history. That leaves out Judaism and Christianity. Any statements you see about Einstein not believing in God comes from them. OTOH, Einstein emphatically stated he was not an atheist. Between those 2 views of what he did not believe, what Einstein did believe is fuzzy, to say the best. Sometimes he sounded like a pantheist, sometimes like a deist, sometimes like a theist in that God was involved in the day to day universe (just not human history).

Einstein did wreck his scientific career and forfeited the admiration of his fellow physicists when he refused to accept the indeterminism of quantum mechanics. Einstein insisted on a strict determinism. His reason? "God does not throw dice."

I suggest the book Einstein and Religion by Max Jammer for a full account.

That idea does not convey what you said here. What is known is not removed from being G-d. Maybe that's why we still can't understand gravity? It's Divine Law ...
Relativity explains gravity very well. The problem is not understanding gravity per se. The problem is that no one has been able to quantize gravity. So we have 2 great theories that, between them, explain physics: Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. But the theories have not been able to be unified or, rather, no one has found a unified theory that can explain what Relativity and QM do.

I know we are not supposed to discuss among our fellow Christians, but standard theology is that what is known is not "being G-d". God is not the physical universe, that would be pantheism. Instead, what is known is not removed from God sustaining the universe. It is not removed from God. Christians believe God's will is required for each and every process discovered by science to work or happen. 2 hydrogens react with an oxygen to form water? That requires God's will to happen, each and every time. There is nothing in science to say this belief is wrong.
 
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lucaspa

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In 2008, Dr Joe Tsien literally wiped memory from a rat due to a block on PKMzeta. Now do we want to find out if a soul exists?
That is not going to find out if a soul exists. That is only going to determine memory. Several studies have noted the existence of consciousness after clinical death and from a perspective that the person involved could not have had. See this paper:
Pim van Lommel, Ruud van Wees, Vincent Meyers, Ingrid Elfferich. Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands. Lancet 2001; 358: 2039–45

As far as evolution goes, I believe that we hold the paint brush. Natural selection works as such, the most adapted for the environment will survive. This presents a problem for humans, we no longer need to adapt. We make the environment adapt to our needs.
It is not completely true that humans no longer are subject to natural selection. Yes, we do control much of our environment, but not all of it. There are many papers out there documenting adaptations in various populations of H. sapiens. Some of the adaptations are leading to allopatric speciation: new species of Homo. It's a classic case of disruptive selection and we will just have to see whether speciation happens or gene flow keeps all the populations of H. sapiens a single species.

The only thing we can carry out on is Neoevolution, the systematic perfection of the human body.
That shows a profound ignorance of evolution and natural selection. There is no such thing as "perfection". Why not? Because traits are "good" or "bad" in relation to a particular environment. So there are no absolute good and bad traits, and thus no absolute "perfection". So, in selecting traits that humans think are "perfect", we could easily be causing great harm to the species in the future.

Gene selection, eugenics will soon replace random gene mutation and non random natural selection. Are we ready for Neoevolution?
No, we are not ready for Neoevolution. Forget religion, look only at the science. Neoevolution presumes that we are smarter than natural selection. We aren't. Natural selection is so much smarter than we are. Proof? Humans call upon natural selection whenever the design problem is too tough for us. So, we are going to abandon the smarter process (natural selection) for one that is dumber? Could be, but it shows profound stupidity on our part. Perhaps terminal stupidity. Who knows? The people who push this thru as a good idea might be the ultimate winners of the Darwin Award.

EDIT: IMO we have already started this. The medical field is pretty much just that. Natural selection is crude.
Natural selection is anything but "crude". Humans concentrate on a few traits. Natural selection balances thousands of traits, constantly performing a cost-benefit analysis between all of them.
"I'm really exploring what evo-lution can do that humans can't," he explains. "There are properties that humans have great trouble designing into a system, like being very efficient, using small amounts of power, or being fault tolerant. Evolution can cope with them all." Evolving A Conscious Machine BY Gary Taubes Discover 19: 72-79, July 1998

Evolution doesn't have any specific goal to obtain. The point of our existence is to carry genes to the next generation.
Talk about the Naturalistic Fallacy! Yes, natural selection does carry the best designs to the next generation, via genes. However, to extrapolate that to what should happen -- "the point of our existence" -- is the Naturalistic Fallacy in all its stupidity.

Evolution doesn't have any long-term goal that we can find. However, natural selection most certainly does have specific short-term goals.

Something my parents always told me was this, "god gave us the ability to make this things such as cars, guns, hospitals to help us. He gave us the ingredients sort of speak and we put them together." So if we come up with the ability to create human life from cloning or what have you, is it wrong? God gave us the science and the tools to make it happen.
Didn't you ever see Jurassic Park? Malcom: "Just because we can do it doesn't mean we should do it."

Let me ask you: if we clone humans and those clones are property, is that wrong? Didn't we decide long ago (at the cost of 600,000 lives) that humans being property was wrong?

Its a paradox, God gave us free will RIGHT? This hosts a problem for me, god is an all knowing being. When he made you he knew what you would be doing 40 years down the road... How does one posses freewill when their future was always predestined in the first place?
Do you have children? When you take them to a restaurant, do you know what they will order? Likely. Yet you are not omniscient. Given a bit more knowledge and wisdom, your predictions could get even better. Yet your children have free will.

God created a universe where even He cannot know the future in detail. Within the universe, God is not omniscient. He is very knowing, which is what scripture says, but not omni-knowing.

Take my observations however you like. If you really take the time to reach outside of the box and LOOK, its an amazing life, I am so proud that I was a random occurrence in this crazy world.
And how does that preclude the existence of God or that God has a plan for you?
 
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AlexBP

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Also if it wasn't the first religion you were told as a child, would it be the one that you followed?

We are all born atheists, I am a non-theist. We are taught to be religious. Our parents teach us there is a god and we trust them because they are our keepers, our protectors and our teachers. Our faith develops in religion because of a faith in our parents to teach us right from wrong.
My father was and still is headstrong atheist. My mother was probably an atheist too, during my childhood, though she's since converted to Christianity. I was raised to believe that religion was an archaic and useless way of thinking that only holds us back and that science was the only way forward. I attended Harvey Mudd College, America's leading undergraduate college of science and engineering, and did my graduate work at Vanderbilt University. While I entered college as a militant atheist determined to tear down religion, I left graduate school seven years later as a Christian determined to devote my life to Jesus Christ. Hence it is difficult for me to take seriously any claim that I'm a Christian because of how my parents raised me or because of my lack of education (in science or anything else).

If religion is about faith, why spend the time trying to explain it by science?
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here. I find Christianity to mesh fully with all the observations that I can make about the world around me, both scientific and otherwise. While I'm happy to explain why I feel this way in regard to any particular I don't go out of my way to mention science in religious debates.

what role does faith play in your political life?
I used to believe that politics was ninety percent evil. Now I believe that it's one hundred percent evil.

If the Universe where created by an intelligent being, then it would raise the question of how that intelligent being came into existence. Anything on this?
God did not come into existence. God has always been.
 
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lucaspa

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See thats just it. Science has nothing to do with being convinced at all. Fact makes science. Laws are set in place, I dont have to convince you that gravity is working on you right now.
Facts convince us. The reason we are convinced gravity is working is because we have the continued facts of gravitational attraction.

Now, if you suddenly began to float in mid-air, you would be convinced that gravity is no longer working, wouldn't you?

Now, as to "laws". You do realize that is no longer a term being applied to theories, don't you? Have you noticed that there have been no new "laws" discovered in the 20th century? The reason is that "laws" were found not to be "set in place". Einstein showed that Newton's laws of gravity were partly wrong.

To be science it has to be not only reproduced but predictable,
That's not it. The "predictable" part is actually predict new knowledge if the hypothesis is correct. As an example, Relativity predicted that light would be bent in a strong graviational field. No one had seen that before. It was not seen until 7 years later during a total eclipse of the sun.

Now, you may have noticed that the history of life on the planet cannot be "reproduced". So if you use that criteria to be science, much of evolution stops being science! Instead, what you want to say is "intersubjective". That is, any person will have the same experience in approximately the same circumstances. Anyone looking at the lithographic fossils of Archeopteryx, for example, are going to see feather impressions. Anyone doing the same experiment (approximately the same circumstances) of this paper -- Lucas, P.A. Chemotactic response of osteoblast-like cells to TGF-beta. Bone, 10: 459-463, 1990. -- will see basically what I saw. Before you go and try to use science to support atheism and combat theism, you need to understand what science is. So far, that doesn't seem to be the case.

If i mix two things together and it blows up in my face I have something, but its not enough. I have to get bob to try it as well. Bob tries it and it also blows up
No, it is enough. See the paper above. I basically did what you claimed but no one reproduced my experiment. Yet there it is in the peer-reviewed literature.

This is science. Now how can someone honestly come to the conclusion that what they read in the bible is true, nothing from it has every been historically documented outside of it.
This isn't true. Much of the historical information has been documented. For instance, recently a stone arch was discovered with the inscription "built by David". That is historical documentation of the existence of David. You need to think more of what you actually want to claim.

Also if it wasn't the first religion you were told as a child, would it be the one that you followed?
Yes.

We are all born atheists, I am a non-theist.
How do you know? Have you asked a newborn and the newborn has told you he/she is an atheist? Wait! Newborns can't talk! Therefore you have no evidence for that assertion.

We are taught to be religious. Our parents teach us there is a god and we trust them because they are our keepers, our protectors and our teachers. Our faith develops in religion because of a faith in our parents to teach us right from wrong. However when you base this faith on the unsubstantiated claims of a book that has so many authors and translations that it should look like Swiss cheese, then that is where the faith ends.
Standard atheist dogma. Were your parents atheist? If not, then how did you change from theist to atheist?

If religion is about faith, why spend the time trying to explain it by science?
We don't. Science tells us how God created. It's not a conflict.

what role does faith play in your political life?
I apply "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others ..." in evaluating any political or social position.

If the Universe where created by an intelligent being, then it would raise the question of how that intelligent being came into existence. Anything on this?
Yes, it would raise the question. So what? That the question exists would not change the fact that an intelligent being created the universe, would it? You really don't understand how science works, do you? Take my paper above. It raises the questions of
1. The signal receptor for TGF-beta on the cells
2. How that signal is translated to getting the cells to move.

Now, the fact that I have no answers to those questions doesn't affect that TGF-beta causes the cells to move, does it?
 
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AlexBP

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You people are so diluted
I've been on the internet for thirteen years and I don't think I've ever seen a post funnier than this one.

It looks like the intellectual arguments that we've presented, particularly those from lucaspa, were too tough for BarkAtTheMoon, so he decided to toss of a not-so-witty one-liner and run away. Have a nice day.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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My biggest problem with religion is this, science and religion cannot both fit into one world.
Many scientist have found no real problem with fitting both into their life and world. There is no evidence that it hampered their ability as scientists.

You might enjoy this book:
Quantum Questions: Mystical Writings of The World's Great Physicists



I just finished it a few days ago and really enjoyed it. It has a collection of writings by some of the "big names" (Heisenburg, Schroedinger, Einstein, de Brogli, Jeans, Planck, Pauli, and Eddington) in the field of physics on issues that could probably be labeled religious or spiritual
 
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Catherineanne

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You people are so diluted

Indeed we are. The human body is about two thirds water in all. The brain is 70% water, the lungs 90%.

I assume you think that for some reason the proportion of water in your own body is somewhat less, and that this being so is in some way an advantage.

Do you have any evidence for either point, or are you simply making random assertions?
 
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BarkAtTheMoon

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I would like to initiate a challenge.
I would like you to theoretically become an atheist and then justify your god or gods to yourself and meet the burden of proof. Your reasons must also meet up to our standards because what is science without peer review? But seriously, as reality is objective, for your beliefs to be more likely to be true you must be able to convince some people other than yourself without indoctrinating them.
I initiated this challenge because I am fairly certain that most theists haven't reasoned themselves into their position, so I believe it would be the intellectually honest thing to do and if I am wrong then it will be very easy for you to justify your beliefs.

Of course if you can't justify your beliefs but then still decide to believe then you are being intellectually dishonest and if you refuse the challenge you are a coward.
 
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