Hello and A Question

[Hermit76]

Hi guys! I hope all has been well with everyone. I have enjoyed my reduced online time but I have a question that I would like to see if any of you can answer.

I was raised strict fundamentalist. My path to Orthodoxy included several stops in groups that had strict rules, etc. I find it difficult now to have any contentment in normal life. Right now we are on a beach vacation and I feel great guilt at being here. Anything and everything makes me feel like I am sinning. It is paralyzing and usually ends with me and my family having a horrible cycle.

How have any of you dealt with this as it relates to your life in Orthodoxy? Is it wrong to enjoy a few things in life? Expand as you see fit.

Please, only comments from Orthodox Christians.

 

[HTacianas]

Hi guys! I hope all has been well with everyone. I have enjoyed my reduced online time but I have a question that I would like to see if any of you can answer.

I was raised strict fundamentalist. My path to Orthodoxy included several stops in groups that had strict rules, etc. I find it difficult now to have any contentment in normal life. Right now we are on a beach vacation and I feel great guilt at being here. Anything and everything makes me feel like I am sinning. It is paralyzing and usually ends with me and my family having a horrible cycle.

How have any of you dealt with this as it relates to your life in Orthodoxy? Is it wrong to enjoy a few things in life? Expand as you see fit.

Please, only comments from Orthodox Christians.

No, it is not wrong to enjoy a few things in life. Especially if you're spending time with your family.

If it makes you feel better, at the end of the day review for yourself everything you've done and see if you have sinned. If you have, repent and note it for confession and don't do it again.

And have a little fun on your vacation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

So good to see you!!!

I can relate in part. I had many similar struggles for some of the same reasons, and in some ways the asceticism of Orthodoxy reinforces that kind of thinking, so it's good to be aware of it.

And when I got through all the cancer issues, I found myself so in love with life, and beauty, and nature, and people ... that there is a bit of confusion about whether I should feel guilty for appreciating things.

I have more peace about it, and a little better thinking, but it still comes up o my mind so I'm not "there" yet.

Some tiny little thoughts that helped me a little ...

When I enjoy something beautiful, I can thank God for my sight. I can be thankful for that faculty in myself that is made in His image that lets me appreciate and prefer the beautiful. If the thing I appreciate the beauty in is nature, or a flower, I can rejoice in the wisdom and creativity of God Who made it. And I can reflect how every part of nature as He created it reflects a tiny part of the wonderfulness of God - though everything we can appreciate taken all together is no more than the hem of His garment.

The same kinds of thoughts can guide in appreciating music, or physical sensations such as enjoying a soft breeze in the heat, or food that we eat. A bit different in each case, but the source of all good things is God, and our ability to enjoy anything is from Him also. And the fact that He gives is good things is part of His love and/or mercy.

I'm sure there's a line. We shouldn't revel continually in sensuousness. We shouldn't put our own pleasure above the needs of others. We should never love anything more than we love God. So it's still something that needs reins.

But the great Saints so often were the kinds of persons that delighted in the songs of birds as they greeted God and heard their singing as praise, and found joy and delight in many things in this way. The most godly people I know in person are often like this also.

Lot of words. Maybe not much help. But I try to get this right myself. I'm working on it.

It really is very good to see you again. God be with you and yours!!!

 

[ArmyMatt]

no, it isn't wrong to enjoy God's blessings. it's wrong to make an idol of them.

 

[Hermit76]

No, it is not wrong to enjoy a few things in life. Especially if you're spending time with your family.

If it makes you feel better, at the end of the day review for yourself everything you've done and see if you have sinned. If you have, repent and note it for confession and don't do it again.

And have a little fun on your vacation.

After being raised fundamentalist and spending time with conservative Anabaptists and various Wesleyan/Holiness, I'm not sure what exactly sin is anymore. In those movements everything can be sinful.

 

[HTacianas]

After being raised fundamentalist and spending time with conservative Anabaptists and various Wesleyan/Holiness, I'm not sure what exactly sin is anymore. In those movements everything can be sinful.

Use this as a guide:

 

[AMM]

Resting and relaxing is not bad, but rather is necessary. Here's two qutoes:

From the Acts of John (a pseudipigraphical, non-canonical early Christian text):
Now one day as John was seated, a partridge flew by and came and played in the dust before him; and John looked on it and wondered. And a certain priest came, who was one of his hearers, and came to John and saw the partridge playing in the dust before him, and was offended in himself and said: Can such and so great a man take pleasure in a partridge playing in the dust? But John perceiving in the spirit the thought of him, said to him: It were better for thee also, my child, to look at a partridge playing in the dust and not to defile thyself with shameful and profane practices: for he who awaiteth the conversion and repentance of all men hath brought thee here on this account: for I have no need of a partridge playing in the dust. For the partridge is thine own soul.
Then the elder, hearing this and seeing that he was not bidden, but that the apostle of Christ had told him all that was in his heart, fell on his face on the earth and cried aloud, saying: Now know I that God dwelleth in thee, O blessed John! for he that tempteth thee tempteth him that cannot be tempted. And he entreated him to pray for him. And he instructed him and delivered him the rules (canons) and let him go to his house, glorifying God that is over all.
It is told that the most blessed Evangelist John, when he was gently stroking a partridge with his hands, suddenly saw one in the habit of a hunter coming to him. He wondered that a man of such repute and fame should demean himself to such small and humble amusements, and said: Art thou that John whose eminent and widespread fame hath enticed me also with great desire to know thee? Why then art thou taken up with such mean amusements? The blessed John said to him: What is that which thou carriest in thy hands? A bow, said he. And why, said he, dost thou not bear it about always stretched? He answered him: I must not, lest by constant bending the strength of its vigour be wrung and grow soft and perish, and when there is need that the arrows be shot with much strength at some beast, the strength being lost by excess of continual tension, a forcible blow cannot be dealt. Just so, said the blessed John, let not this little and brief relaxation of my mind offend thee, young man, for unless it doth sometimes ease and relax by some remission the force of its tension, it will grow slack through unbroken rigour and will not be able to obey the power of the Spirit.


From the Sayings of the Desert Fathers:
13. A hunter in the desert saw Abba Anthony enjoying
himself with the brethren and he was shocked. Wanting to
show him that it was necessary sometimes to meet the needs
of the brethren, the old man said to him, 'Put an arrow in
your bow and shoot it.' So he did. The old man then said,
'Shoot another,' and he did so. Then the old man said, 'Shoot
yet again and the hunter replied 'If I bend my bow so much I
will break it.' Then the old man said to him, 'It is the same
with the work of God. If we stretch the brethren beyond
measure they will soon break. Sometimes it is necessary to
come down to meet their needs.' When he heard these words
“the hunter was pierced by compunction and, greatly edified
by the old man, he went away. As for the brethren, they
went home strengthened.

 

[Hermit76]

Use this as a guide:

What am I missing?

 

[RobNJ]

What am I missing?

I think an upload, didn't

 

[HTacianas]

What am I missing?

I guess it would have helped to include the link.

Examination of Conscience and Preparation for Confession

 

[archer75]

Relaxing and enjoying creation is not a sin.

You should consult your confessor about this, but it really isn't.

As Fr Matt said - turning these things into idols would be bad and spiritually harmful.

Ignore those groups that have everything listed as sin.

 

[Hermit76]

Relaxing and enjoying creation is not a sin.

You should consult your confessor about this, but it really isn't.

As Fr Matt said - turning these things into idols would be bad and spiritually harmful.

Ignore those groups that have everything listed as sin.

My confessor tells me the same thing. This is like coming from a cult though. It is going to take years, perhaps, to be clear of all of this.

 

[All4Christ]

My confessor tells me the same thing. This is like coming from a cult though. It is going to take years, perhaps, to be clear of all of this.

While my “baggage” isn’t the same, I find that over 10 years later, I still am struggling with some things. I don’t think we ever will be 100% free from them here on this earth, but we can take it day by day and step closer to God to become more like him and to what His desire is for us. The point where we think we have it all together is a dangerous time!

I concur with the others though. Check out Psalm 95 verses 1-7

 

[archer75]

My confessor tells me the same thing. This is like coming from a cult though. It is going to take years, perhaps, to be clear of all of this.

A lot of things are like cults in some way. I have experienced injury from some, myself. You have my sympathy and my prayers (I mean that).

It is important not to bring the cult with you. Do consult your confessor regularly when you have trouble with this.

Galatians 5:22-23

 

[All4Christ]

A lot of things are like cults in some way. I have experienced injury from some, myself. You have my sympathy and my prayers (I mean that).

It is important not to bring the cult with you. Do consult your confessor regularly when you have trouble with this.

Galatians 5:22-23

Archer has a point - my previous post isn’t intended to say that you should bring cult-like beliefs with you, but rather that it is normal for us to take time to fully get beyond those inclinations to believe what we used to believe. I’m sure most converts, especially from very different backgrounds, experience something similar, albeit in a different way and perhaps in differing extents.

 

[archer75]

Archer has a point - my previous post isn’t intended to say that you should bring cult-like beliefs with you, but rather that it is normal for us to take time to fully get beyond those inclinations to believe what we used to believe. I’m sure most converts, especially from very different backgrounds, experience something similar, albeit in a different way and perhaps in differing extents.

Btw, I hadn't seen your post when I posted - I was in no way "correcting" your post that I hadn't read...

 

[All4Christ]

Btw, I hadn't seen your post when I posted - I was in no way "correcting" your post that I hadn't read...

I didn’t take it that way - your post just made me reflect a bit more

 

[Ignatius21]

What exactly is "sinful" about being on vacation with your family? Is the perceived sin one of *actively* sinning (i.e. watching a movie, in itself, is sinful?) or more like *negatively* sinning (i.e. watching a movie is keeping you from prayer or reading the Bible for 2 hours?).

I've heard both. When we first joined Orthodoxy, there was someone at the parish -- not a convert -- who often seemed to see most forms of recreation as sinful, but more because they were an idle use of time than because they were necessarily sinful in themselves. "Would the saints spend 2 hours watching a movie? No, they would spend those two hours in prayer!" was said on a few occasions.

It's ironic to me that Protestant fundamentalism has trapped its followers into a cycle of guilt and fear that rivals or surpasses anything medieval Catholicism did. In a sense, Protestantism was born out of a desire to free people from the endless cycle of sin, guilt and fear that came from seeing God as an angry avenger who was out to extract justice from every little sin.

I have also known people who've been raised in cults, and have taken years to achieve any sense of peace in their lives because various rules and fears (almost always arbitrary) had been so deeply ingrained in their minds from childhood. And often accompanied by many forms of abuse, often physical. I pray that you're able to escape the guilt you feel for enjoying anything. But I cannot answer the question about how much someone should enjoy things, etc. I wonder myself. I'm sure I spend far more time idly than I should. I don't pray without ceasing, and I suppose it's probably sinful that I don't feel worse about it than I do. I really don't know where the lines are drawn. Certainly there are enough rules in Orthodoxy that -- if followed as ends in themselves -- could trap people in similar cycles of fear and guilt. I've known a few who became almost neurotic about fasting, usually because they were raised very strictly, and without any reasons given for fasting. Just long lists of things not to eat, and lots of guilt for eating them.