HELL

[bling]

The Lord motivates us when He changes our hearts to freely give. Sinners aren't motivated unless the Lord motivates them.

Where is the verse that claims all believers are mature adults or that the wicked are obedient?

How can you be a "believer", if you are an unborn baby or severely mentally handicapped?
Believers are told to do stuff, so how does an unborn baby do that stuff; while not doing it is a sin for a believer?
YES! God does motivate a person, when they are showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts, just as the prodigal son would be motivated to Love his father after the father runs to him and showers him with gifts.
We are talking about who is "gifted" and who is "not gifted", just prior to some accepting the gifts. At least for a while the unbelieving sinner is given by God a burden by their sins (doing stuff that hurts others), which is strong motivation to seek relief, but not totally compelling.

 

[Rescued One]

How can you be a "believer", if you are an unborn baby or severely mentally handicapped?
Believers are told to do stuff, so how does an unborn baby do that stuff; while not doing it is a sin for a believer?
YES! God does motivate a person, when they are showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts, just as the prodigal son would be motivated to Love his father after the father runs to him and showers him with gifts.
We are talking about who is "gifted" and who is "not gifted", just prior to some accepting the gifts. At least for a while the unbelieving sinner is given by God a burden by their sins (doing stuff that hurts others), which is strong motivation to seek relief, but not totally compelling.

How can you be a believer and reject the word of God?

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus Blesses the Children
(Mark 10:13–16; Luke 18:15–17)

13Then little children were brought to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them. And the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15And after He had placed His hands on them, He went on from there.

 

[bling]

Jesus Blesses the Children
(Mark 10:13–16; Luke 18:15–17)

13Then little children were brought to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them. And the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15And after He had placed His hands on them, He went on from there.

Is Jesus not saying: "all children start out innocent" and we must also become innocent to enter the Kingdom?
Did Jesus choose only those Children, who were part of the elect to come to Him?
In what we must we be like a child to enter the Kingdom?

 

[bling]

How can you be a believer and reject the word of God?

We all still have free will and can quench the Spirit to sin.

 

[Rescued One]

You reject the words of God. Babies and young children don't.

 

[bling]

You reject the words of God. Babies and young children don't.

I might "reject" your interpretation of god's word, but not God's word, so what are you referring to?

 

[BenLaine]

Hello friends! I have been a Christian Universalist my whole adult life (decades) and have seen a lot of debates. The issue I have is that people seem to think theology comes first, but for me God's character as revealed in Christ comes first, and all theology rests upon that, and complements it. What is the character of God?

1. God's character is fully revealed in Jesus Christ.
2. Jesus said that for us to be perfect like the Father we must love our enemies.
3. Jesus demonstrated this by saying "forgive them, they know not what they do".
4. Jesus also said you will know someone by their fruit - the fruit of God is the fruit of the Spirit. This is who God is.
5. John says God is Love.
6. We are led by the Spirit to become conformed to the image and character of God.
7. When John & James wanted to call down fire from heaven (judgment) on those who did not receive Jesus (which tradition says deserves torture forever), Jesus responded that they did not know what Spirit they are of!

The point I am making is that everything we see theologically should ultimately rest on, and agree with, the revealed character of God in Christ. And as disciples, how is the Spirit working in us? Are you worked into by God to become more patient, kind, and longsuffering, like He is, or implacable, angry and vengeful, like tradition says He is? If God is implacable and sadistic with most of creation, should not the Spirit lead us the same way so that we resemble Him? As parents, shouldn't there come a point we give up on our wayward kids and torture them in the basement?

Secondly, most debates about the plan of God as far as salvation focus on the human - what we do or don't deserve, what we have or haven't done, what we do or don't believe, but the center of the plan of God is Jesus Christ Himself, and it is much more important to ask what God's intentions are for Jesus Christ.

Consider the ALL's in Colossians 1, which is an overview of God's plan in Christ:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over ALL creation. 16 For by Him ALL things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before ALL things, and in Him ALL things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in ALL things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him ALL the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Tradition has no problem with the first 7 "alls", and would likely call anyone a heretic who did not agree with them. But when it comes to the 8th "all", it is claimed that it does not really mean "all", despite building on the preceding "alls". Not only that, but instead of making peace by the blood of His cross, tradition says He only made "an invitation" by the blood of His cross.

The reason I use the passage above is that it is a very apt "overview" passage to start from in understanding the plan of God and centrality of Christ to everything. I would ask my dear brethren who do not agree with me to ask themselves why they agree with the first 7 "alls" and not the 8th? And why they don't agree peace was made by the blood of His cross?

I know this is a thread about Hell, but I wanted to set the above as a foundation before building on it.

 

[BenLaine]

Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth - applied to faithless SERVANTS. Consider Matthew 8, where Jesus says "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Also consider Luke 12:46: "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. These are warnings about missing out on a rightful place rather than a final punishment. As God is not dealing with the majority of unbelievers right now, being assigned a place with them is a cause of sorrow for those who were called to better things in this life.

 

[BenLaine]

I wrote a long, well-researched, affable post about the different meanings of hell, but looks like the mods deleted it, despite it being perfectly on topic. I'll just post a link to a good video instead.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Tradition has no problem with the first 7 "alls", and would likely call anyone a heretic who did not agree with them. But when it comes to the 8th "all", it is claimed that it does not really mean "all", despite building on the preceding "alls". Not only that, but instead of making peace by the blood of His cross, tradition says He only made "an invitation" by the blood of His cross.

Hi Ben. You have a fortunate background, being raised apart from thinking the majority of our neighbors are going to hell for either making bad decisions or not being one of the few lucky chosen.

I don't mean to pick on you as I accept all the ALL's, but we should probably give a nod to the scriptural specific exceptions. For example I do not believe any parts of my current organic body soon to be dust in the wind will be reconstituted to eternal organic material, and quite frankly don't see the need for that. As it is with many things in temporal creation.

And then, a bigger theological question, Satanic salvation. Even though I am a universalist when it comes to people I am also a universalist in reverse fashion with Satanic salvation i.e. the devil ain't going to be saved or converted, but simply set aside and put away forever. And I'm good with that. An antiLife spirit can serve temporary purposes FOR GOD no less, and not have a place in eternity, nor does it have to have a place in eternity nor does it have to be reconstituted to be something else.

As your own "all's" citing could factor in, technically we are dead, and our life is hid with God in Christ. I don't think that changes after our physical death. Col. 3:3. We will in fact remain dead as we are currently, and contrary to what we temporarily think. Not that that is all that is going on currently, mind you. I believe God's Life and the working of the adversary are still very much in play within all people.

So technically a part of everyone is in fact going to HELL. Which is not a commonly realized matter.

All have sin. Sin is of the devil. Yes believers, we do carry very certain things to permanent final adversarial judgments. All of us serve God in this way as well. Some obviously more than others. Depends on how much dragon meat they ate at the distribution meal before they got here.

Isaiah 43:20

The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

Dragons, beasts and owls are obviously association terms for devils. And we get relief from God's Waters because of their actions in us, so as not to overwhelm us either with their ill works or in a converse manner, God's overwhelming glory.

Psalm 74:14

Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Which then resulted in this state for everyone:

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The "spirit of disobedience" is an exception to the ALL. It is not the same as "everyone." Just as the sin and evil present within Paul, that Paul dealt with was "no longer I", Romans 7:17-21 He saw the difference between himself and the devil that was in his own sorry hide, 2 Cor. 12:7, that temptation that was in his own flesh being of that tempter, resulting in the state of Gal. 4:14, causing his flesh to be at odds with God/Spirit, Gal. 5:17.

Besides all that, promoting Satanic salvation is simply not a good message, if you fast forward that kind of thinking and what could become of it. We don't need to put that bad actor on center stage, as much as it desires to be so.

 

[bling]

Hello friends! I have been a Christian Universalist my whole adult life (decades) and have seen a lot of debates. The issue I have is that people seem to think theology comes first, but for me God's character as revealed in Christ comes first, and all theology rests upon that, and complements it. What is the character of God?

1. God's character is fully revealed in Jesus Christ.
2. Jesus said that for us to be perfect like the Father we must love our enemies.
3. Jesus demonstrated this by saying "forgive them, they know not what they do".
4. Jesus also said you will know someone by their fruit - the fruit of God is the fruit of the Spirit. This is who God is.
5. John says God is Love.
6. We are led by the Spirit to become conformed to the image and character of God.
7. When John & James wanted to call down fire from heaven (judgment) on those who did not receive Jesus (which tradition says deserves torture forever), Jesus responded that they did not know what Spirit they are of!

The point I am making is that everything we see theologically should ultimately rest on, and agree with, the revealed character of God in Christ. And as disciples, how is the Spirit working in us? Are you worked into by God to become more patient, kind, and longsuffering, like He is, or implacable, angry and vengeful, like tradition says He is? If God is implacable and sadistic with most of creation, should not the Spirit lead us the same way so that we resemble Him? As parents, shouldn't there come a point we give up on our wayward kids and torture them in the basement?

Secondly, most debates about the plan of God as far as salvation focus on the human - what we do or don't deserve, what we have or haven't done, what we do or don't believe, but the center of the plan of God is Jesus Christ Himself, and it is much more important to ask what God's intentions are for Jesus Christ.

Consider the ALL's in Colossians 1, which is an overview of God's plan in Christ:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over ALL creation. 16 For by Him ALL things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before ALL things, and in Him ALL things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in ALL things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him ALL the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Tradition has no problem with the first 7 "alls", and would likely call anyone a heretic who did not agree with them. But when it comes to the 8th "all", it is claimed that it does not really mean "all", despite building on the preceding "alls". Not only that, but instead of making peace by the blood of His cross, tradition says He only made "an invitation" by the blood of His cross.

The reason I use the passage above is that it is a very apt "overview" passage to start from in understanding the plan of God and centrality of Christ to everything. I would ask my dear brethren who do not agree with me to ask themselves why they agree with the first 7 "alls" and not the 8th? And why they don't agree peace was made by the blood of His cross?

I know this is a thread about Hell, but I wanted to set the above as a foundation before building on it.

Why were humans created to spend a short time here on earth (what is our objective which is best fulfilled on earth?

 

[BenLaine]

Hi Ben. You have a fortunate background, being raised apart from thinking the majority of our neighbors are going to hell for either making bad decisions or not being one of the few lucky chosen.

I don't mean to pick on you as I accept all the ALL's, but we should probably give a nod to the scriptural specific exceptions. For example I do not believe any parts of my current organic body soon to be dust in the wind will be reconstituted to eternal organic material, and quite frankly don't see the need for that. As it is with many things in temporal creation.

And then, a bigger theological question, Satanic salvation. Even though I am a universalist when it comes to people I am also a universalist in reverse fashion with Satanic salvation i.e. the devil ain't going to be saved or converted, but simply set aside and put away forever. And I'm good with that. An antiLife spirit can serve temporary purposes FOR GOD no less, and not have a place in eternity, nor does it have to have a place in eternity nor does it have to be reconstituted to be something else.

As your own "all's" citing could factor in, technically we are dead, and our life is hid with God in Christ. I don't think that changes after our physical death. Col. 3:3. We will in fact remain dead as we are currently, and contrary to what we temporarily think. Not that that is all that is going on currently, mind you. I believe God's Life and the working of the adversary are still very much in play within all people.

So technically a part of everyone is in fact going to HELL. Which is not a commonly realized matter.

All have sin. Sin is of the devil. Yes believers, we do carry very certain things to permanent final adversarial judgments. All of us serve God in this way as well. Some obviously more than others. Depends on how much dragon meat they ate at the distribution meal before they got here.

Isaiah 43:20

The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

Dragons, beasts and owls are obviously association terms for devils. And we get relief from God's Waters because of their actions in us, so as not to overwhelm us either with their ill works or in a converse manner, God's overwhelming glory.

Psalm 74:14

Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Which then resulted in this state for everyone:

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The "spirit of disobedience" is an exception to the ALL. It is not the same as "everyone." Just as the sin and evil present within Paul, that Paul dealt with was "no longer I", Romans 7:17-21 He saw the difference between himself and the devil that was in his own sorry hide, 2 Cor. 12:7, that temptation that was in his own flesh being of that tempter, resulting in the state of Gal. 4:14, causing his flesh to be at odds with God/Spirit, Gal. 5:17.

Besides all that, promoting Satanic salvation is simply not a good message, if you fast forward that kind of thinking and what could become of it. We don't need to put that bad actor on center stage, as much as it desires to be so.

Hello my friend! Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It sounds as though we have a decent amount of overlap, and you state your case interestingly and eloquently.

As far as Satan, I am not as bothered by him as many are. He is nowhere near as much of the focus of scripture as one would think, based on how much many believers testify about how busy he is in their lives! Some things I do believe is that we are not to revile celestial beings (with the example given of how Michael would only say "the Lord rebuke you!" to Satan) that even now Satan always has to ask permission of God ("Simon, Satan has asked permission to sift you as wheat") and he therefore is not on the same "playing field" as God as some kind of worthy negative adversary. I also think we are not given enough to be significant experts in Satan.

That all being said, my focus is Jesus Christ, and His ever expanding kingdom and glory. I don't find it particularly problematic for anything God created to be reconciled and restored to a place of harmony, including Satan and the angels - God is Love, and therefore Love is His nature towards all of His works, of which Satan and his angels are part of. The Lake of Fire is for them, but it is also for anyone who does not overcome, as only overcomers are promised to not be hurt by it. So if the fire is used for Satan, unbelievers and believers who don't overcome, surely it is a symbol of purifying judgment for the same?

Also, we are told that we will judge angels (by Paul). This concept makes no sense if the angels are all set in their final judgment. Our judgment is going to be by the Word of God - the double-edged sword which comes out of the mouth of Christ is found in the hand of the saints in Psalm 149, as they joyfully go about "executing the written judgment". We ourselves are going to be involved in the processing of judgment in people and angels, and it is not hammering a gavel and saying "guilty - off to hell you go".

Ultimately, Satan is not my focus, but I see the victory of Jesus Christ as so complete that of the increase of His kingdom there will be no end, Death is abolished, all power and authority has been given to Him, He has the keys of Death and Hades, He is the Beginning (Alpha) and end (Omega) of all things, and He has the power to subject all things to Himself. I am not in the business of placing limitations on Him, but of magnifying His brilliance, glory, power and love to the uttermost!

 

[BenLaine]

Why were humans created to spend a short time here on earth (what is our objective which is best fulfilled on earth?

Hello my friend!

I wouldn't presume to speak to every purpose of God in what He is doing, but in my own understanding, the primary purpose for us is to all (eventually) come to conformity to the image of Jesus Christ, that He may be the firstborn among many brethren, and the preeminent One among a host of glorified beings all sharing in His beauty and glory. I believe that this life is designed as a place of pressure, conflict and fiery trial that brings us into that image.

The reason it seems like God is "not getting the attention" of so many unbelievers now, is that the plan is based on firstfruits and harvest, so God is dealing with a firstfruits in Christ in this age (judgment begins with the house of God, and James calls us believers a firstfruits of His creation, meaning a harvest must follow) and then the greater harvest will be realized in the ages to come. Another law of the Old Testament which points to this is redemption and jubilee - within a 50 year jubilee period, anyone could be redeemed by a rich kingdom redeemer at any time (which points to believers in this age having their redemption realized one by one) but in the year of jubilee, everyone was set free (typifying the general harvest by which all creation is ultimately set free).

As far as individual purpose while we are here, I think Christians are caught up in trying to impress God when we are actually designed to EXPRESS God - to be outflows of His Life, Light, Love, Fruit and Character, like the streams of living water Jesus referred to when speaking with the woman at the well. Ambassadors of Christ and conduits of heavenly reality. When we understand that our lifeflow is from inside (where we are a new creation in union with God) to the outside, it changes the direction of the flow of our lives completely (we no longer need things "out there" to pull into us to satisfy us) and we are able to rest in Him as He does the works in us and through us.

 

[BenLaine]

*Note, should say "kinsman-redeemer" above, not "kingdom redeemer".

 

[Hentenza]

Hello friends! I have been a Christian Universalist my whole adult life (decades) and have seen a lot of debates. The issue I have is that people seem to think theology comes first, but for me God's character as revealed in Christ comes first, and all theology rests upon that, and complements it. What is the character of God?

1. God's character is fully revealed in Jesus Christ.
2. Jesus said that for us to be perfect like the Father we must love our enemies.
3. Jesus demonstrated this by saying "forgive them, they know not what they do".
4. Jesus also said you will know someone by their fruit - the fruit of God is the fruit of the Spirit. This is who God is.
5. John says God is Love.
6. We are led by the Spirit to become conformed to the image and character of God.
7. When John & James wanted to call down fire from heaven (judgment) on those who did not receive Jesus (which tradition says deserves torture forever), Jesus responded that they did not know what Spirit they are of!

The point I am making is that everything we see theologically should ultimately rest on, and agree with, the revealed character of God in Christ. And as disciples, how is the Spirit working in us? Are you worked into by God to become more patient, kind, and longsuffering, like He is, or implacable, angry and vengeful, like tradition says He is? If God is implacable and sadistic with most of creation, should not the Spirit lead us the same way so that we resemble Him? As parents, shouldn't there come a point we give up on our wayward kids and torture them in the basement?

Secondly, most debates about the plan of God as far as salvation focus on the human - what we do or don't deserve, what we have or haven't done, what we do or don't believe, but the center of the plan of God is Jesus Christ Himself, and it is much more important to ask what God's intentions are for Jesus Christ.

Consider the ALL's in Colossians 1, which is an overview of God's plan in Christ:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over ALL creation. 16 For by Him ALL things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before ALL things, and in Him ALL things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in ALL things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him ALL the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Tradition has no problem with the first 7 "alls", and would likely call anyone a heretic who did not agree with them. But when it comes to the 8th "all", it is claimed that it does not really mean "all", despite building on the preceding "alls". Not only that, but instead of making peace by the blood of His cross, tradition says He only made "an invitation" by the blood of His cross.

The reason I use the passage above is that it is a very apt "overview" passage to start from in understanding the plan of God and centrality of Christ to everything. I would ask my dear brethren who do not agree with me to ask themselves why they agree with the first 7 "alls" and not the 8th? And why they don't agree peace was made by the blood of His cross?

I know this is a thread about Hell, but I wanted to set the above as a foundation before building on it.

I have no problems with number 8 “all”. He will indeed reconcile all, the believers and the unbelievers. And the unbelievers (enemies) will become a footstool for His feet. And those will go into eternal punishment and the believers into eternal life. Of course now you are going to argue that aionios does not really mean eternal but for an age, yada yada yada. We heard all the arguments from your camp friend.

“Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” ’”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭20‬:‭43‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 20:43 (NASB2020) - UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTO | YouVersion

UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.” ’

bible.com

 

[Hentenza]

Hi Ben. You have a fortunate background, being raised apart from thinking the majority of our neighbors are going to hell for either making bad decisions or not being one of the few lucky chosen.

I don't mean to pick on you as I accept all the ALL's, but we should probably give a nod to the scriptural specific exceptions. For example I do not believe any parts of my current organic body soon to be dust in the wind will be reconstituted to eternal organic material, and quite frankly don't see the need for that. As it is with many things in temporal creation.

And then, a bigger theological question, Satanic salvation. Even though I am a universalist when it comes to people I am also a universalist in reverse fashion with Satanic salvation i.e. the devil ain't going to be saved or converted, but simply set aside and put away forever. And I'm good with that. An antiLife spirit can serve temporary purposes FOR GOD no less, and not have a place in eternity, nor does it have to have a place in eternity nor does it have to be reconstituted to be something else.

As your own "all's" citing could factor in, technically we are dead, and our life is hid with God in Christ. I don't think that changes after our physical death. Col. 3:3. We will in fact remain dead as we are currently, and contrary to what we temporarily think. Not that that is all that is going on currently, mind you. I believe God's Life and the working of the adversary are still very much in play within all people.

So technically a part of everyone is in fact going to HELL. Which is not a commonly realized matter.

All have sin. Sin is of the devil. Yes believers, we do carry very certain things to permanent final adversarial judgments. All of us serve God in this way as well. Some obviously more than others. Depends on how much dragon meat they ate at the distribution meal before they got here.

Isaiah 43:20

The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

Dragons, beasts and owls are obviously association terms for devils. And we get relief from God's Waters because of their actions in us, so as not to overwhelm us either with their ill works or in a converse manner, God's overwhelming glory.

Psalm 74:14

Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Which then resulted in this state for everyone:

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The "spirit of disobedience" is an exception to the ALL. It is not the same as "everyone." Just as the sin and evil present within Paul, that Paul dealt with was "no longer I", Romans 7:17-21 He saw the difference between himself and the devil that was in his own sorry hide, 2 Cor. 12:7, that temptation that was in his own flesh being of that tempter, resulting in the state of Gal. 4:14, causing his flesh to be at odds with God/Spirit, Gal. 5:17.

Besides all that, promoting Satanic salvation is simply not a good message, if you fast forward that kind of thinking and what could become of it. We don't need to put that bad actor on center stage, as much as it desires to be so.

I think a called you a conditional universalist last time we talked.

 

[BenLaine]

I have no problems with number 8 “all”. He will indeed reconcile all, the believers and the unbelievers. And the unbelievers (enemies) will become a footstool for His feet. And those will go into eternal punishment and the believers into eternal life. Of course now you are going to argue that aionios does not really mean eternal but for an age, yada yada yada. We heard all the arguments from your camp friend.

“Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” ’”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭20‬:‭43‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 20:43 (NASB2020) - UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTO | YouVersion

UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.” ’

bible.com

Hello there! Thanks for the reply!

In what way could burning in hell be considered reconciliation, based on what reconciliation actually means?

As far as making enemies his footstool, the scriptures state that "the last enemy to be destroyed is death". From that point on, there is no more death and no more enmity. Enmity will exists until it doesn't, because of the increase of His kingdom there will be no end and He has the power (per the scriptures, explicitly) to subject all things to Himself, which He will. Subjection/submission is the same as the commandment for the brethren to submit to one another in Love. Much like "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord" is a joyful expression of praise per the word for "confess", not some kind of weird, gunpoint "say it! say He is Lord!" before they are tossed into the fiery lake.

Your "yada yada" - though it gave me a nice chuckle - doesn't really explain your view on the Greek (For the past 17+ years I read the NT only in Koine Greek rather than English and find the universalist claims on the original Greek perfectly supportable), so I'd be interested to hear your perspective, if you could summarize.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, seek and save that which is lost, leave the 99 to find the 1, and many other stated aims, and my contention is that He was actually, completely, utterly and transcendently successful in everything that He came to do.

 

[Hentenza]

Hello there!

In what way could burning in hell be considered reconciliation? If people are never changed, what is the difference between NOT being reconciled?

Remember the footstool?

“‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution; In due time their foot will slip. For the day of their disaster is near, And the impending things are hurrying to them.’”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32‬:‭35‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Deuteronomy 32:35 (NASB2020) - ‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution | YouVersion

‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution; In due time their foot will slip. For the day of their disaster is near, And the impending things are hurrying to them.’

bible.com

Also because they have been judged already. They don’t change because they don’t want to. All will be given the chance.,


“The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:18 (NASB2020) - The one who believes in Him is not | YouVersion

The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

bible.com

As far as making enemies his footstool, the scriptures state that "the last enemy to be destroyed is death".

Yep. And it also says that it will be thrown in the lake of fire which is eternal for the beast and Satan. If the lake of fire is eternal for the beast and Satan then it is eternal for those thrown in it.

From that point on, there is no more death and no more enmity.

Your assumption. Not biblical.

Enmity will exists until it doesn't, because of the increase of His kingdom there will be no end and He has the power (per the scriptures, explicitly) to subject all things to Himself, which He will. Subjection/submission is the same as the commandment for the brethren to submit to one another in Love. Much like "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord" is a joyful expression of praise per the word for "confess", not some kind of weird, gunpoint "say it! say He is Lord!" before they are tossed into the fiery lake.

And if a person does not confess then they are the enemies of God and Jesus. Why would the scriptures continually exhort people to repent and accept the gospel if it was not urgent to do so or if there were no consequences for not doing so.

Your "yada yada" - though it gave me a nice chuckle - doesn't really explain your view on the Greek (I read the NT only in Koine Greek rather than English and find the universalist claims on the original Greek perfectly supportable), so I'd be interested to hear your perspective, if you could summarize.

Sorry. I did not mean to mock you but I knew you would go there because that is your only attempt to support your theory. The problem for you is that either both salvation or punishment are eternal then neither of them are. They are contrasted against each other after all. Your next argument is that death is eternal.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, seek and save that which is lost, leave the 99 to find the 1, and many other stated aims, and my contention is that He was actually, completely, utterly and transcendently successful in everything that He came to do.

Of course. He was including giving the parameters of salvation and the parameters of eternal punishment. Jesus talked about 70 times about Gehenna or Hell in the NT. I think think I’m going with Him instead of you.

 

[BenLaine]

Remember the footstool?

“‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution; In due time their foot will slip. For the day of their disaster is near, And the impending things are hurrying to them.’”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭32‬:‭35‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Deuteronomy 32:35 (NASB2020) - ‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution | YouVersion

‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution; In due time their foot will slip. For the day of their disaster is near, And the impending things are hurrying to them.’

bible.com

Also because they have been judged already. They don’t change because they don’t want to. All will be given the chance.,


“The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:18 (NASB2020) - The one who believes in Him is not | YouVersion

The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

bible.com

Yep. And it also says that it will be thrown in the lake of fire which is eternal for the beast and Satan. If the lake of fire is eternal for the beast and Satan then it is eternal for those thrown in it.

Your assumption. Not biblical.

And if a person does not confess then they are the enemies of God and Jesus. Why would the scriptures continually exhort people to repent and accept the gospel if it was not urgent to do so or if there were no consequences for not doing so.

Sorry. I did not mean to mock you but I knew you would go there because that is your only attempt to support your theory. The problem for you is that either both salvation or punishment are eternal then neither of them are. They are contrasted against each other after all. Your next argument is that death is eternal.

Of course. He was including giving the parameters of salvation and the parameters of eternal punishment. Jesus talked about 70 times about Gehenna or Hell in the NT. I think think I’m going with Him instead of you.

Thank you for the response! I still don't feel as though my questions were answered, though.

Reconciliation is about bringing two or more parties back into harmony. Whereas you seem to define reconciliation as vengeance? They are actually almost semantic opposites. Maybe you are mistaking reconciliation for "retribution"?

You also did not respond to my question about your analysis of "aionos". I would also state that as this is likely a Hellenization of the Hebrew "Olam", that needs to be taken into account also.

It is not my definition that there will be no more death - it is a quote from Revelation!

The problem about the Lake of Fire being eternal for anyone thrown into it is that in Revelation 2, Christ says that it is the overcomer who will not be hurt by the second death, not believers in general. So whatever you think about the Lake of Fire/Second Death, it involves believers, as clearly - if you read Revelation 2 and 3 - not all believers are overcomers.

You said "And if someone does not confess they are the enemy of God". That's the thing - Philippians says EVERY tongue will confess! And it is a callback to Isaiah which also says every tongue will swear an oath to God!

You are right - the reward is also "aionos" - reigning with Christ in the age to come as His firstfruits, and also judging (even angels!) by the word of God per Psalm 149.

Your assertion that Jesus mentions Gehenna and Hades 70 times is not accurate. Gehenna appears a total of 12 times in the New Testament, and is only spoken to Jews (James is the 12th instance, and he was writing to Jews). Hades is mentioned 10 or 11 times depending on the manuscript used for 1 Cor 15, and is a Hellenization of Sheol from the Hebrew. Gehenna is literally 'The Valley of the Sons of Hinnom', place outside Jerusalem that became a symbol of judgment TO THE JEWS. It is never mentioned to a single Gentile in the New Testament!

I would encourage you to read who Jesus' warnings were towards: faithless SERVANTS, unworthy SERVANTS, unforgiving SERVANTS. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is always for someone missing out on their rightful place - "But the Sons of the Kingdom will be cast out". This was a tremendous warning to national Israel (the scriptures even say the Pharisees knew he spoke a certain parable about them!).

I am not sure why you are trying to be slightly insulting with the "only thing you have to support your theory" "I am going to go with Him instead of you". I have written and spoken reams on the subject, and am perfectly happy to go over the scriptures with someone who does not evade questions. Insulting someone comes across as insecure, as though you do not necessarily feel yourself to be on firm ground and prefer to oppose the person rather than what they are writing, and that's fine, dear brother or sister - I am not trying to shake you and "make you believe" anything - I am merely testifying to the victory of Christ that is much more complete than you are currently willing to concede, and I absolutely love you whether you do or not.