HELL

[bling]

One thing at a time. "All mature adults have their own free will gifted to them by God" —repeated assertion without scriptural warrant. And a non-answer to my question. But I will deal with it to press for an answer: HOW —even if that assertion is true— do some make one decision and some others make a different decision. WHY? What makes that difference? You never answer this question. You just kick the can down the road.

You have a partial scripture list above to show we have free will.
The difference is within us (made in the image of God), since God operates with free will, to become like Him (Christ) we must have free will.

 

[bling]

The Bible is not addressing only mature adults.

Where does it address adults with severe mental handicaps?

 

[Rescued One]

Right, God is not pleased with our sinning selfishly, but it does show a willingness to humbly accept His charity as charity.

It seems you either don't understand English or refuse to believe my posts.

 

[bling]

You're the one coming up with this unbiblical narrative to support your notion of Love. YOU, whether you admit it or not, hinge eternal security on it—Do you not say that if one does not "humbly accept pure undeserved charity" they will not be saved, and if they do, they will be saved. It is self-evident, then, that you hinge their eternal state upon that 'humble accepting', which you have not been able to prove possible, but only to assert that it is possible. Meanwhile I've shown you plenty of Scriptural warrant that the spiritually dead are not able to do anything that will please God, nor to motivate God to do anything for them, of their supposed 'free will'.

Man is not "doing" anything which causes that man to earn, deserve, or be intitled to eternal life, but God will gift that person eternal life because the person is just willing to accept such a gift as pure undeserved charity, since the person shows his willingness to humbly accept God's Love.
In that way, salvation "hinges" to be gifted to those who are willing to accept the gift and not to everyone.
Are you not saying salvation "hinges" on God's arbitrary choice to save some and send the others to hell?

 

[bling]

It seems you either don't understand English or refuse to believe my posts.

No, what man is doing was not done to please God and being selfish does not please God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Verses supporting free will

Gen. 1-3 Did Adam and Eve have free will?

No

Exodus 35:29 “All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the Lord freewill offerings for all the work the Lord through Moses had commanded them to do.” Are these truly free will offerings?

That is referring to unlegislated —i.e voluntary— offerings. That is a good demonstration of your faulty hermeneutic, though.

Jonah 3: 10 “When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.” Did the people of Nineveh change what God said he would do?

Did God not plan ahead for this—in fact, cause it to come about? Yes. What God said he would do is rather obviously a threat, though, if they had not repented, he would indeed have done it, as he said. But they repented, just as he intended and caused. I'm just amazed your notion is of a God is not sure just how things will turn out. Just another resident with us in a larger reality.

How is this not saying that God’s actions are contingent on the choices of the people?

Who says they are not? I'm saying he doesn't make up his mind according to what they choose. Truly, if Ninevah had not repented he would have done as he said he would do, if they did not repent.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40). Note that Jesus does not say, "you cannot come", which the Greek does not say here, but, "you refuse to come", in order that you may have eternal life. It was their own rejection of Jesus and the Gospel, that would damn their souls, and not because they were "unable" to make the "choice" themselves.

Have you not read in Romans 8 that they will not, and indeed cannot? Answer this. They cannot because they are set at enmity with God. They never will submit nor do anything that pleases God until he changes them from 'natural' to 'spiritual', death to life (Eph. 2 —read it please).

Christ is God here on earth. The “whomsoever” does not mean only the elect, but lots of people, who then made the choice to accept or reject Christ. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)

Do not their sins condemn them. Are they not also (John 3:18) condemned because they don't believe? Where are you quoting this, "whomsoever" from? In every case that I read it and similar forms, it is not a question of who, but a statement concerning "all those that" or "those that" or "those who" or "those to whom". It is not up to chance, nor implied that there is any question what will happen.

To say: “Christ only reveals Himself to those who God have chosen to accept Him”, means God is guilty of not helping others to accept Christ.

Why should he? Does he owe them something? But I'd be careful of trying to ascribe Guilt to God.

John 15: 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

If they have no free will, they have an excellent excuse for sinning?

Not at all. They are without excuse—it is their enmity that they love. God's existence is self-evident, but they squelch it. (Romans 1) Why do you think they hate the implication that the existence of God requires their obeisance?

There are all the “whosoever” verses making it contingent.
Did satan and the angels make an autonomous free will choice to rebel?

Bring them up, one at a time, and I'll deal with them. But first, just to save me some time in a fruitless pursuit of getting you to reason according to the Greek, look them up yourself, in literal translations and the Greek interlinear. "Those that" does not imply what you get from "whosoever".

Satan and his angels rebelled of their own will. "Free"?—no. Nothing can happen that God has not decreed. He INTENDED that Satan sin. This is not plan B because plan A failed. No wonder children depart the church from notions of a silly god, who does nothing to fix problems he apparently couldn't help happening. Don't you ever ask yourself why God would go ahead and create us knowing ahead that things would go south?

Notice God says he has bound the whole world over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on us all (Romans 11:32). There is no other way than his mercy. Nothing man can do to gain salvation—not even as a "mature intelligent human humbly accepting undeserved charity".

Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Yep. Problem? Just as in Ninevah, he lays out the conditions. This if they do this, that if they do that. Nobody is fooled.

How is this not saying that God’s actions are contingent on the choices of people?

That God decrees absolutely all things does not mean that people's choices are of no avail. "Will" implies that indeed choices are real, with real, even eternal, consequences. I've never said otherwise. But that doesn't begin to imply that the will is "free". Do I say nothing God does is contingent on what people do? No, I've said that God is the first cause of all fact, and that God has decreed all things, whatsoever come to pass. John 1: "All things were made by him and without him was nothing made that was made." Do you suppose the Alpha and the Omega leaves the things between the beginning and the end up to chance and rebellious creatures? Even our regeneration, faith, submission, repentace, obedience and love for Christ comes from HIM. We are IN HIM. And when you are done with that, then consider the simple logical self-contradiction that God causing your beloved "freewill" means that you can choose uncaused to do so.

John 3:11… but still you people do not accept our testimony
1 Thes. 5: 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil.

Yes, good quotes. Wonderful verses. ....and.....?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, what man is doing was not done to please God and being selfish does not please God.

What? It doesn't please God when somebody accepts the gospel?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Be more specific there are a lot of different ideas being expressed.

Start with one. Then go on to the next. I've been there when you tried it before.

You can't do it without jumping categories and ignoring scripture. Yet you can't give me one that I can't answer. You are presenting a false gospel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes my notion of God's Love could grossly underestimate how great it is since it goes beyond logic.

Oh, yeah, now that adds up! Yet you submit God to your notion of love.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Where does it address adults with severe mental handicaps?

"All have sinned" sound familiar?

 

[bling]

No

If humans do not have free will how are they any different from just glorified robots?

How can humans become like Christ, if Christ is a free will being?

Why would God ever make humans and put them in this disastrous world without them having an objective?

That is referring to unlegislated —i.e voluntary— offerings. That is a good demonstration of your faulty hermeneutic, though.

How could it be “voluntary” if God determined how much they will bring?

Did God not plan ahead for this—in fact, cause it to come about? Yes. What God said he would do is rather obviously a threat, though, if they had not repented, he would indeed have done it, as he said. But they repented, just as he intended and caused. I'm just amazed your notion is of a God is not sure just how things will turn out. Just another resident with us in a larger reality.

God knows what will happen, but it is still contingent on the person’s choice, and the “threat” will bring about that free will choice to repent. If God is bringing about what happens there is no need for a threat.

Who says they are not? I'm saying he doesn't make up his mind according to what they choose. Truly, if Ninevah had not repented he would have done as he said he would do, if they did not repent.

You say: “if Ninevah had not repented he would have done as he said he would do…” so there is an “if” which makes it contingent on something other than God.

Have you not read in Romans 8 that they will not, and indeed cannot? Answer this. They cannot because they are set at enmity with God. They never will submit nor do anything that pleases God until he changes them from 'natural' to 'spiritual', death to life (Eph. 2 —read it please).

So did God not provide them with what they needed to go, which makes their being lost God’s fault?

Do not their sins condemn them. Are they not also (John 3:18) condemned because they don't believe? Where are you quoting this, "whomsoever" from? In every case that I read it and similar forms, it is not a question of who, but a statement concerning "all those that" or "those that" or "those who" or "those to whom". It is not up to chance, nor implied that there is any question what will happen.

Why should he? Does he owe them something? But I'd be careful of trying to ascribe Guilt to God.

I would say: “ascribe Guilt to God” is exactly what you are doing, since human have no free will choice about it, that leaves only God to be guilty.

Not at all. They are without excuse—it is their enmity that they love. God's existence is self-evident, but they squelch it. (Romans 1) Why do you think they hate the implication that the existence of God requires their obeisance?

Your saying: “because God made them that way” are you not?

Humans without Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit, will sin, but they can accept God’s charity and thus be gifted with Love and the Spirit (Luke 7).

Bring them up, one at a time, and I'll deal with them. But first, just to save me some time in a fruitless pursuit of getting you to reason according to the Greek, look them up yourself, in literal translations and the Greek interlinear. "Those that" does not imply what you get from "whosoever".

Satan and his angels rebelled of their own will. "Free"?—no. Nothing can happen that God has not decreed. He INTENDED that Satan sin. This is not plan B because plan A failed. No wonder children depart the church from notions of a silly god, who does nothing to fix problems he apparently couldn't help happening. Don't you ever ask yourself why God would go ahead and create us knowing ahead that things would go south?

Notice God says he has bound the whole world over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on us all (Romans 11:32). There is no other way than his mercy. Nothing man can do to gain salvation—not even as a "mature intelligent human humbly accepting undeserved charity".

This messed up tragic world (he has bound the whole world over to disobedience) is also the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective. If there was a better place God would have made it a better place.

Yes, we all sin, but sin has purpose for the unbelieving sinner. To be forgiven much to be gifted with an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) you have to first create an unbelievable huge debt of sin, so we first sin much (Luke 7).

Yep. Problem? Just as in Ninevah, he lays out the conditions. This if they do this, that if they do that. Nobody is fooled.

You are the one using “if” a contingency on what?

That God decrees absolutely all things does not mean that people's choices are of no avail. "Will" implies that indeed choices are real, with real, even eternal, consequences. I've never said otherwise. But that doesn't begin to imply that the will is "free". Do I say nothing God does is contingent on what people do? No, I've said that God is the first cause of all fact, and that God has decreed all things, whatsoever come to pass. John 1: "All things were made by him and without him was nothing made that was made." Do you suppose the Alpha and the Omega leaves the things between the beginning and the end up to chance and rebellious creatures? Even our regeneration, faith, submission, repentace, obedience and love for Christ comes from HIM. We are IN HIM. And when you are done with that, then consider the simple logical self-contradiction that God causing your beloved "freewill" means that you can choose uncaused to do so.

No, “will” does imply, “free will” or it is not the human’s will we are talking about.

Again, if “God decrees absolutely all things”, does mean that people's choices are of no avail.

The first question is: “Does God have both the Love and power to make humans with a miraculous free will ability to make choices, and if so, then just the fact that God made humans does not mean they were not made in God’s image (with a limited free will ability)?

God making man with limited free will ability to mentally make some free will choices, does not mean God cannot plan for all the possible choices a human can make.

 

[bling]

"All have sinned" sound familiar?

Does "all" always mean everyone from conception to death?

 

[bling]

(Staff edit)
God is never obligated, just as the father in the prodigal son story was not obligated to do anything for his young son.

 

[bling]

What? It doesn't please God when somebody accepts the gospel?

It does not please God for people to be selfish, but as you point out, they cannot be unselfish at the time.

 

[bling]

Start with one. Then go on to the next. I've been there when you tried it before.

You can't do it without jumping categories and ignoring scripture. Yet you can't give me one that I can't answer. You are presenting a false gospel.

I would also like you to be more plan with the question and give verses if you can.

 

[bling]

Oh, yeah, now that adds up! Yet you submit God to your notion of love.

My "notion" of God's Love is based on all Christ did and said, 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4, plus the Bible.

 

[Rescued One]

All mature adults have their own free will gifted to them by God.
God can easily handle any "tangled mess".

There is no verse that says mature adults are gifted free will!

 

[Rescued One]

Start with one. Then go on to the next. I've been there when you tried it before.

You can't do it without jumping categories and ignoring scripture. Yet you can't give me one that I can't answer. You are presenting a false gospel.

AMEN!

 

[bling]

There is no verse that says mature adults are gifted free will!

Look at post 334

 

[Rescued One]

Look at post 334

The Lord motivates us when He changes our hearts to freely give. Sinners aren't motivated unless the Lord motivates them.

Where is the verse that claims all believers are mature adults or that the wicked are obedient?