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bling

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I'm demonstrating there your complete mis-taking (false grasp) of the facts—your complete mis-representation of the way of things. WE are not the center of anything. GOD is the center of everything. Grace requires nothing of its recipients. In fact, God has bound us all over to disobedience for the purpose of Grace. (Romans 11:32) GOD is doing this work. NOT us. (When we do what we do in that vein, it is by and in response to what has already been done in us—i.e. regeneration.)

You are looking at it backwards. You claim that our notion of God has the reprobate going to hell because "God doesn't help them". No. That we are saved by the Grace alone of God alone does not translate to the rest going to hell because he did not help them. They go to hell because of their sin, just as we would have, but for God's Grace. It would not take a gospel, nor redemption, if they had not sinned. You demand a contract? There it is. Live sinless, you go to heaven. But none but Christ ever did. God didn't fail to do anything he hadn't set out to do from the beginning.

But you want to make utter Grace to depend on man. You want God's decision to depend on man's decision. You try to make man in charge.

You ask: "If the saved or the unsaved person are exactly alike, how can you not have some survival remorse for those that are not saved while you are saved?" They are not exactly alike, except BEFORE being regenerated. Thank God for his generosity toward you, and quit crying about fairness. It is not because the objects of his mercy humbly accept his charity that God shows mercy to them. It is because HE chose them.
You state the contrast: "They go to hell because of their sin, just as we would have, but for God's Grace." Which is the idea: God the rescuer could just as easily and safely saved everyone in the burning building but only chose to save few and we should all be pleased with this Rescuer for saving a few, which we are part of. I would be very upset with such a rescuer and not give him any praise.
So, I am very glade God is not like such a rescuer.
My God invites everyone to a banquet, but if a person is too caught up in the pleasures of sin and does not like the idea of partying with his prodigal son brother, even though the wonderful party giver will be there, he does not have to go.

My God is the epitome of Love, which also means He is totally charitable, always doing stuff for other and doing stuff for others, is for His sake. This whole messed up world is to help willing individuals in the completion of their earthly objective.
 
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bling

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If being persuaded by the Gospel message is the meaning here, explain how it is possible to accept it for those who are spiritually dead? Or would it be nicer to call them 'spiritually clueless'? "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned." (1 Cor. 2:14)
The Spiritually dead person (unbelieving sinner) does not commit to the Gospel to begin with, but will out of a gratitude type of Love (gifted when he accepts God’s forgiveness (Luke 7).

The Spiritual dead can still do different stuff for sinful reasons, so they can for selfish reasons accept pure undeserved charity for a sinful reason, trusting they just might get something they selfishly want.

He can reason that God would have to be illogical, to do such a thing but the sinner is a fool.
Whether they kick and scream is irrelevant. They have no say in being regenerated. They are not consulted, and are not even aware of it, until they realize the change has occurred. Your mindset has it that their experience IS the change. It is not. That, at best, is the realization of the fellowship of Christ. The conversion is not the realization of it, nor their decision about it. It is the work of God. Born Again. Grace.
God Loves everyone, but we can accept or reject that illogical Love, for sinful (selfish reasons).
 
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bling

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Chapter and verse?
We have to accept the invitation:
Luke 14:15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’

22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”
Matt. 22: 1
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
 
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Mark Quayle

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The Gospel follows along the lines of the prodigal son, we spiral down to the pigsty of life, with God allowing us to do this, and along the way our tragic life forces us to come to our senses on occasion, so we can chose to be macho hang in there an accept the life we deserve (starving to death in a pigsty) or give-up and surrender to the enemy we hate, trusting somehow our enemy might just extend to us undeserved mercy (Love/forgiveness).
What—does a pigsty just appear out of nowhere? Why there? How did the prodigal son find it? How did he come to his senses? Etc ad infinitum.

What is the source of life, tragic or otherwise? CAUSED. I didn't say 'forced', there, btw. You did. You really think that 'God only "ALLOWS" things to happen that spring up all by themselves'?

But, again, and still, we are unable to surrender.


A syllogism:

Premise 1. The natural man cannot please God (Romans 8:8)
Premise 2. Surrendering to God is pleasing to him.
Conclusion: Natural man cannot surrender to God.


Another:

Premise 1. The natural man does not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14)
Premise 2. Surrendering to God is a spiritual thing.
Conclusion: Natural man does not understand surrendering to God.

Do you need more, or is that enough evidence that you transfer "natural" to "spiritual" with impunity?
 
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The Spiritually dead person (unbelieving sinner) does not commit to the Gospel to begin with, but will out of a gratitude type of Love (gifted when he accepts God’s forgiveness (Luke 7).

The Spiritual dead can still do different stuff for sinful reasons, so they can for selfish reasons accept pure undeserved charity for a sinful reason, trusting they just might get something they selfishly want.

He can reason that God would have to be illogical, to do such a thing but the sinner is a fool.

God Loves everyone, but we can accept or reject that illogical Love, for sinful (selfish reasons).
See post #304 You are attributing spiritual ability to the natural man, contrary to 1 Cor. 2:14
 
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We have to accept the invitation:
Luke 14:15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’

22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”
Matt. 22: 1
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
You say: "We have to accept the invitation:" —And just how are we going to do that, if we are at enmity with God? We WILL not. We are unable to please God.

I agree we must accept the invitation, because of what we have become. We necessarily will accept the invitation, if he regenerates us. Thus, our accepting is evidence of the change done in us—not the cause of it. That our will is obviously wrapped up in that accepting does not mean that our will in any way causes the regeneration.

Why MUST you insist on self-determining your salvation?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Mark Quayle said:
Words sometimes push us around. We think we've overcome a mental contradiction, but all we've done is to put some words together. This is how you came up with your version of the Gospel, that has less than "little if any Biblical support."

I am not the one who posited the notion of a transaction. You did. I'm saying that if there is a transaction, it is between the Father and Son—not an arrangement by which we can purchase—er, "gain"— salvation.

You are throwing up a strawman, since I never suggested nonbelieving sinners are purchasing or even seeking salvation. They are seeking, at least for a while, relieve of the burden in their conscience for things they have done which hurt others. They have nothing to offer which could pay for this relieve, but they can humbly accept undeserved charity (forgiveness) as pure undeserved charity, that is the transaction we are addressing.
Yet you claim that what they seek produces the very effect of salvation. It is therefore no strawman. That you at one point slough logic does not mean you can later separate the categories you sloughed together to argue against protests.

You make their "seeking relief" substantive, which, as you here even admit, (with, "at least for a while") it is not.

But, what you propose here is not only illogical, it is a stretch that the Gospel of the Bible does not include, nor imply. It is YOUR gospel.


Romans 8 is addressing Christians who have thus already accepted God’s help for selfish reasons (sinful reasons) and thus have been showered with all kinds of gifts including Love, the indwelling Holy Spirit, salvation, faithfulness, heaven, fellowship and more.
Ha! WHAT??? Read it again. THE NATURAL MAN! The man living according to the flesh. The man governed by the flesh. The mind of the flesh. The sinful nature. The mind set on the flesh. The carnal mind. The corrupt nature. Have you no concept of the natural vs the spiritual? Your gospel transfers across the two categories, and that, by the power and will of the natural man!

Mark Quayle said:
In addition, the thing you pretend they can do, ("to simply, humbly, accept as charity"), requires understanding what it is that they are accepting. Until God regenerates them, they are clueless, spiritually speaking. "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned." 1 Cor 2:14 Furthermore, as the conversion requires, he cannot have salvific faith, he has no repentance, he has no love for God, he has no power of commitment, he has no standing, until God regenerates him, whose faith is not of his own making. All those things that are required in your so-called 'transaction', though you will deny it, are by the Spirit of God Himself having 'taken up residence' in the person, God who alone has those things in full measure.
No! You do not have to, “understanding what it is that they are accepting” to be surprisingly showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts. The prodigal son returned to his father just wanting and hoping for some kind of undeserved livable job and surprisingly was showered with wonderful gift.
Still jumping categories. Do you not believe that surrendering is also committing to something? You are the one mentioning a transaction between the two parties. "ACCEPTING"?—Accepting WHAT?

That the prodigal (or the new believer) is "surprisingly showered with unbelievable wonderful gifts" is not in question. That is unrelated to the argument. Your exuberance does nothing to make your point.
You can accept or reject the invitation to the banquet, not knowing what goes on at the banquet, except to know it is better than what you are doing right then. God is not kidnapping you to go to the banquet since it is still your choice.
No doubt. But GOD knows.

Nevertheless, you WILL always reject the invitation to the banquet because you know well enough in whom the banquet honors, which leaves you without excuse. (Romans 1). Only by the GRACE OF GOD will you be changed, and accept the invitation. Even those who, in your fantasy, "humbly accept undeserved charity", (which claim you make without Scriptural warrant), more closely resemble those who had insufficient oil in their lamps.
Not wanting to starve to death in the pigsty of life (like where the prodigal son was at) is not “doing” anything worthy of anything.
Regretting your life decisions is definitely not sufficient to transform your soul. Only God can make that difference—not your 'humble' decisions as someone at enmity with God.

Can you demonstrate how someone at enmity with God even CAN be humble, while rejecting God? Do you not know that the CORE of sin is a proud rejection of God's Sovereignty? We are declaring independence, until God changes us. We are saying that we do not need God. We work against God continuously.

We are NOT good. No matter how small you whittle it down, there is no ability in man to do anything resulting in his salvation. It is entirely by Grace.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You state the contrast: "They go to hell because of their sin, just as we would have, but for God's Grace." Which is the idea: God the rescuer could just as easily and safely saved everyone in the burning building but only chose to save few and we should all be pleased with this Rescuer for saving a few, which we are part of. I would be very upset with such a rescuer and not give him any praise.
So, I am very glade God is not like such a rescuer.
My God invites everyone to a banquet, but if a person is too caught up in the pleasures of sin and does not like the idea of partying with his prodigal son brother, even though the wonderful party giver will be there, he does not have to go.

My God is the epitome of Love, which also means He is totally charitable, always doing stuff for other and doing stuff for others, is for His sake. This whole messed up world is to help willing individuals in the completion of their earthly objective.
In other words, you have to extrapolate, conflate concepts, confuse categories, stretch reason and, WALLA! —a palatable gospel that fits your notion of love.
 
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The Spiritually dead person (unbelieving sinner) does not commit to the Gospel to begin with, but will out of a gratitude type of Love (gifted when he accepts God’s forgiveness (Luke 7).

The Spiritual dead can still do different stuff for sinful reasons, so they can for selfish reasons accept pure undeserved charity for a sinful reason, trusting they just might get something they selfishly want.

He can reason that God would have to be illogical, to do such a thing but the sinner is a fool.

God Loves everyone, but we can accept or reject that illogical Love, for sinful (selfish reasons).
To repeat: So you insist; and so the Bible does not say.
 
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Rescued One

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God's mercy is what saves us and it is offered to all mature adults, we just have to accept God mercy (Love/forgiveness/charity) as pure undeserved charity.
The Bible does not address anyone as a "mature adult." It does not stipulate an age that God chooses to grant faith. Not all adults own or read Bibles.
 
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Rescued One

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bling said:
"My God invites everyone to a banquet, but if a person is too caught up in the pleasures of sin and does not like the idea of partying with his prodigal son brother, even though the wonderful party giver will be there, he does not have to go."
"
God hates the workers of iniquity and never claims to save everyone.

Psalm 5:
…4For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You. 5The boastful cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6You destroy those who tell lies; the LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.…
 
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bling

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What—does a pigsty just appear out of nowhere? Why there? How did the prodigal son find it? How did he come to his senses? Etc ad infinitum.
That is the best job he could find, it is in the foreign land.
He came to his senses because he got himself into the worst situation he could get into.
What is the source of life, tragic or otherwise? CAUSED. I didn't say 'forced', there, btw. You did. You really think that 'God only "ALLOWS" things to happen that spring up all by themselves'?
No God both allows and causes things to happen that can help willing individuals in fulfilling their earthly objective.
But, again, and still, we are unable to surrender.


A syllogism:

Premise 1. The natural man cannot please God (Romans 8:8)
Premise 2. Surrendering to God is pleasing to him.
Conclusion: Natural man cannot surrender to God.
No, soldiers can surrender to the enemy while they are still hating their enemy.
God is always Loving everyone.
The prodigal son returned home.
Another:

Premise 1. The natural man does not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14)
Premise 2. Surrendering to God is a spiritual thing.
Conclusion: Natural man does not understand surrendering to God.

Do you need more, or is that enough evidence that you transfer "natural" to "spiritual" with impunity?
Surrendering to your hated enemy, God, does not have to be a righteous and holy act, it can be for purely selfish sinful reasons which is not pleasing to God. The burden of sin, can cause a person to seek undeserved relieve.
 
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bling

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You say: "We have to accept the invitation:" —And just how are we going to do that, if we are at enmity with God? We WILL not. We are unable to please God.

I agree we must accept the invitation, because of what we have become. We necessarily will accept the invitation, if he regenerates us. Thus, our accepting is evidence of the change done in us—not the cause of it. That our will is obviously wrapped up in that accepting does not mean that our will in any way causes the regeneration.

Why MUST you insist on self-determining your salvation?
The Homeless person under the bridge invited to a huge banquet is not doing it out of a love for a person he does not know. He/she is hungry (so for selfish reasons the person wants to go to the banquet.
 
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bling

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In other words, you have to extrapolate, conflate concepts, confuse categories, stretch reason and, WALLA! —a palatable gospel that fits your notion of love.
The Gospel has to fit the notion of Love, since it is Love.
One of the ways people try to reason away the need to humble themselves to the point of accept pure undeserved charity from a sacrificial giver is to say: "You can't do it".
 
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bling

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The Bible does not address anyone as a "mature adult." It does not stipulate an age that God chooses to grant faith. Not all adults own or read Bibles.
From what is asked of people, we can assume it is only addressing people who can understand and do. Where do you find what babies must do?
 
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bling

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bling said:
"My God invites everyone to a banquet, but if a person is too caught up in the pleasures of sin and does not like the idea of partying with his prodigal son brother, even though the wonderful party giver will be there, he does not have to go."
"
God hates the workers of iniquity and never claims to save everyone.

Psalm 5:
…4For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You. 5The boastful cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6You destroy those who tell lies; the LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.…
This as an example is addressing mature adults since babies cannot do this.
This is also going out to Jews who have the Law.
I fully agree that all people will not be saved of their own free will choice.
The "boastful" stood before Christ, so that might be addressing the Kingdom location.
And yes, God hates sin.
 
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