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Mark Quayle

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No not at all. I do not have the free will to fly around the room, but that does not mean I cannot have free will in other areas.
I can make mental choices to do some sin, which is a sin, but not have the freedom to physically carry out that sin.
We agree that "God is not unjust". Yet, it would be unjust for God to condemn one person for sinning the person could not keep from doing and not condemn another person for doing the same thing because God made the choice to forgive him and not the first for no reason (being arbitrary is never fair.)
From the beginning God made each one for its purpose in his plan. We were "chosen from the foundation of the world". Created for GOD's purposes—not an experiment to see what chance might produce.

Being arbitrary is not what God choosing these and not those is about. He has his purposes and reasons. The potter makes one vessel for one purpose, and another for another purpose. They are his to do with as he pleases. You think one is just as suited as another? No, none is more deserving, but suited? Romans 9 says one of the two is flawed in the hands of the potter. He can judge it according to its nature, and discard it as he pleases. THAT is how much higher his existence, morality and purposes are than ours. We don't figure on his scale. Stop trying to bring him down to ours.
 
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bling

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Strawman, or, Moving the Goalposts. What does this have to do with someone programmed to do something? This is not programming nor robothood. It is about causation. You choose because you have preferences and find yourself needing to choose. Pretty simple. You have not been able to show that it is uncaused. All you do is revert back to the notion that if you are caused to do something, the will is irrelevant. It is not irrelevant. I've taken you even further back than that, to show that NOTHING can even BE, unless God (First Cause) establishes it. You can't show it isn't so, except by repeating your thesis, and its various corollaries.
Did Eve make a free will choice to eat the fruit or was that programmed into Eve?
 
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bling

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Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Romans 9:21


Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?



Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?



Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?



Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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bling

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From the beginning God made each one for its purpose in his plan. We were "chosen from the foundation of the world". Created for GOD's purposes—not an experiment to see what chance might produce.

Being arbitrary is not what God choosing these and not those is about. He has his purposes and reasons. The potter makes one vessel for one purpose, and another for another purpose. They are his to do with as he pleases. You think one is just as suited as another? No, none is more deserving, but suited? Romans 9 says one of the two is flawed in the hands of the potter. He can judge it according to its nature, and discard it as he pleases. THAT is how much higher his existence, morality and purposes are than ours. We don't figure on his scale. Stop trying to bring him down to ours.
Man has an earthly objective which requires free will, so by saying man does not have "free will", you also eliminate the reason for humans to spend time here on earth (they have no objective). You can red my explanation to Romans 9 above.
 
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bling

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Are you not then arbitrarily choosing which category is free and which is not?
Not at all, since the bad choices we make which we will be held accountable for are our free will choices.
"What is it that makes you think that your choices are free?", is my question. You judge it on the notion that God would be unjust to condemn someone for doing what his nature "makes him do", as if it wasn't his own choice. Nobody says that he didn't choose. But more than that, Scripture does not say that it is only his choices that condemn him, but (John 3:18), that he failed to believe. Contextually, we find that is talking about his being at enmity with God. Simple. Why is he at enmity with God? Because Adam sinned and the sin nature is inherent in all "flesh". God has every right to choose to hate Esau and love Jacob. It is not unjust. And it is not because of some construction where God looks down through the corridors of time to see that Jacob chose well.
Where do you find in scripture this "inheriting a sin nature"?
Adam and Eve did not inherit a sin nature and yet with only one way to sin they sinned. We have knowledge of good and evil which gives us tons of ways to sin and really impossible for us not to sin, but that is not a change in our nature.
God can see prior to the birth of Esau and Jacob that He can work with Jacob better than He can work with Esau. You have to use Deity's definition of "Hate" since Jesus tells us we must hate our family. You are to and can both Love and hate the same person, with Love only wanting the best for them. How do you Love and hate your family at the same time. It certainly does not mean Esau went to hell.
The Strawman you posit concerning God being arbitrary is so full of weakness, I don't even know why you considered it worth defeating. God made everything, to include every person and every most miniscule particle, for his own purposes. He owns us, and has the right to do as he pleases with what he made. You want to raise us to his level of morality??? Or, just as bad, to bring him down to our level, to judge what he says plainly in scripture (Romans 9), because it isn't fair? What makes you think God is fair? Read the parable of the workers in the field —does he not have the right to be generous with what is his to give, to whomever he chooses to give it? Notice that not one of those workers deserved the full day's pay, except those complaining. Yep, they will get what they contracted for.
Again, read my Romans 9 explanation.
 
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bling

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God is not limited by our false, self-contradictory, notions either. It is not a question of whether he can create another first cause. It is a question of whether there can logically be any but one first cause. The very words, as I have shown, are self-contradictory! "Causing something uncaused"???

So you want to begin a new sequence of causation with each person. Do you not see how that is self-defeating? Not only is there plenty of evidence that each person is caused to be, and influenced on every side by conflicting and mentally accented thoughts and feeling about those influences, those accents themselves results of past events and influences, etc etc ad infinitum, but you would have the very creator of fact and reality to not know or understand to the most miniscule proportion and detail EVERY thing he created, but rather, that it be a mere grand experiment to be trained this way and steered that, to see what would become of it.

I hope sooner or later you can begin to see the enormous, infinite, difference between the Creator and his creation. That is SEEMS to us that we are truly spontaneous is no evidence that we are. More difficult, though, for you, is the admission that the command does not imply the ability to obey. That we are responsible with our life for what we are inclined to do is no indication that we can avoid doing it. We are born with that bent, and except by the mercy and Grace of God (Eph 2:8,9) we are going to receive according to what we have done, to include even our very words, thoughts and intents. You would have, in the end, some way that a person actually deserves mercy and grace??? If my salvation, or any good I choose, depends on any virtue endemic to myself, I am lost, but if it depends on God's mercy alone, then GOD's choice prevails. THAT is the only safe place to be.

Jesus didn't make salvation possible. Jesus SAVED.
Jesus does not go against your free will desires and will not force you to go to heaven. Heaven is a place where the person has humble accepted pure undeserved charity, but hell is for those who have refused God's charity to the point they would never be willing to accept.
The criminal undeserving kidnapper could never deserve the ransom payment, but God/Christ are willing to make it available to him/her in hopes of allowing the child within them to enter the Kingdom.
 
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Chaplain Jim

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Does God love the world or only part of it?
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life"

May God, Mightily bless you and your loved ones, In Jesus's Name.
 
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Rescued One

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John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life"

May God, Mightily bless you and your loved ones, In Jesus's Name.
May God's will be done . When people hate Him, they reject heaven.
 
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Rescued One

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Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Romans 9:21
We are the clay and God has power over us. Certain CF members prefer to have the clay in charge.
 
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Rescued One

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Not at all, since the bad choices we make which we will be held accountable for are our free will choices.

Where do you find in scripture this "inheriting a sin nature"?
Adam and Eve did not inherit a sin nature and yet with only one way to sin they sinned. We have knowledge of good and evil which gives us tons of ways to sin and really impossible for us not to sin, but that is not a change in our nature.
God can see prior to the birth of Esau and Jacob that He can work with Jacob better than He can work with Esau. You have to use Deity's definition of "Hate" since Jesus tells us we must hate our family. You are to and can both Love and hate the same person, with Love only wanting the best for them. How do you Love and hate your family at the same time. It certainly does not mean Esau went to hell.

Again, read my Romans 9 explanation.
You puny version of God can't change people. I don't hate the unbelievers in my family.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Man has an earthly objective which requires free will, so by saying man does not have "free will", you also eliminate the reason for humans to spend time here on earth (they have no objective). You can red my explanation to Romans 9 above.
Mere assertion. Show me that construction from Scripture. (You can't).
 
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Mark Quayle

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Jesus does not go against your free will desires and will not force you to go to heaven. Heaven is a place where the person has humble accepted pure undeserved charity, but hell is for those who have refused God's charity to the point they would never be willing to accept.
The criminal undeserving kidnapper could never deserve the ransom payment, but God/Christ are willing to make it available to him/her in hopes of allowing the child within them to enter the Kingdom.
Another strawman argument. Nobody is saying God forces us to go to Heaven anymore than he forced us to be born the first time.

Your self-derived narrative of "humbly accepting pure undeserved charity" —even if it was accurate—is not what saves anyone. It is a result of him regenerating ("born again") us.
 
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